Premier League Draft SF: Enigma vs Religion

[Enigma_87]

He's been near-universally acclaimed for his performances since he's arrived at Chelsea, and most of us watched him play superbly against Liverpool in a cup final about a week ago. You're probably better off just shitting on Neville rather than taking aim at Thiago.

Surely consistency matters in a PL draft which encompasses 3 decades and 30 seasons?

He has his fair share of blunders as well considering how little he has played compared to everybody else on the pitch.




Anyway, off to bed. All the best to you and Religion. Will try to chime in at some point tomorrow

 

[Skizzo]

Fantastic debate. Makes you wonder the distance we'd go if someone is actually paying us for this shit.

When ol JB finds out…

 

[Šjor Bepo]

 

[Šjor Bepo]

@Enigma_87

Seeing my man attacked, so I have to chime in

I watched most Chelsea games featuring Silva, and want to set a few things straight. I understand the need to nitpick on the oppo team in a draft discussion, but this is the wrong target.



What stands out about these mistakes is how uncharacteristic they were for Silva's Chelsea stint in now 60+ appearances. To be clear, what's portrayed here as "his fair share of blunders" were absolute exceptions from the norm. Tag any Chelsea fan on here: Silva has been a quite spectacular example of consistency and excellence throughout his time at the club. (Only Rüdiger can really compare in high-end consistency during Tuchel's spell, but he was out of the team for much of Lampard's last half-season.)



Silva has actually played quite a lot in a back 4 during the last two seasons, both for Chelsea and Brazil. In the games I saw, he looked pretty much the same player, which includes a few outings in 2022. The team as a whole had far less stability under Lampard, but that's not the same. Playing in a back three helps everyone, but I've seen no indication Silva's level actually drops in a back four. He's still far from slow physically, and maybe the quickest defender out there mentally.

If there are any doubts about the level of athleticism Silva still has at 37, watch this example from last month's League Cup final. It's also a showcase for his unusual level of anticipation - how many players (let alone 37 year-olds) would have bothered to make this run after being up high for a corner? Silva insta-calculated he could still impact the play, and went all in. He's already in full sprint before (!) the stray pass reaches Fabinho.



Salah's shot ended up going just wide, but that wasn't clear for 95% of the situation.



While Silva missed a good amount of games in his first season, he still played more than 2700 minutes overall, which is decent. (All club games count for this draft, not just PL.) This season, he already matches these numbers with lots left to play. Conclusions can be drawn from 5400+ minutes.



The majority of these losses came when everything went south under Lampard, but you'll find few Chelsea fans making out Silva as a reason for that. On the contrary, he was generally seen as one of the few still standing when the team as a whole went to pot. The majority of the Silva-less wins came under Tuchel, when the team was excellent in general. Results =/= performance level of one individual.

Plus, again, this draft is about all club games: Chelsea's record with Silva in cup competitions is 7-2-2 for that season, and 8-0-2 for the current season (one loss being the EFL cup final on penalties). So when deducing from results (as I said, I personally wouldn't do it), why not factor in all of them?

Would one of you be so kind to copy & paste (not quote) the above into the Enigma vs Religion match thread?

I can't tolerate my man being put down

the parts he quoted went missing in the transition but important stuff is here.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

@Synco you beautiful man . Strangely enough the Silva-bashing irritated me far more than the criticism of Nev. He's just a superb footballer, and it's been nice to see him add to his reputation at an age where you'd expect him to either be retired or taking it easy in MLS, Qatar or the like.

 

[General_Elegancia]

@Enigma_87

Seeing my man attacked, so I have to chime in

I watched most Chelsea games featuring Silva, and want to set a few things straight. I understand the need to nitpick on the oppo team in a draft discussion, but this is the wrong target.



What stands out about these mistakes is how uncharacteristic they were for Silva's Chelsea stint in now 60+ appearances. To be clear, what's portrayed here as "his fair share of blunders" were absolute exceptions from the norm. Tag any Chelsea fan on here: Silva has been a quite spectacular example of consistency and excellence throughout his time at the club. (Only Rüdiger can really compare in high-end consistency during Tuchel's spell, but he was out of the team for much of Lampard's last half-season.)



Silva has actually played quite a lot in a back 4 during the last two seasons, both for Chelsea and Brazil. In the games I saw, he looked pretty much the same player, which includes a few outings in 2022. The team as a whole had far less stability under Lampard, but that's not the same. Playing in a back three helps everyone, but I've seen no indication Silva's level actually drops in a back four. He's still far from slow physically, and maybe the quickest defender out there mentally.

If there are any doubts about the level of athleticism Silva still has at 37, watch this example from last month's League Cup final. It's also a showcase for his unusual level of anticipation - how many players (let alone 37 year-olds) would have bothered to make this run after being up high for a corner? Silva insta-calculated he could still impact the play, and went all in. He's already in full sprint before (!) the stray pass reaches Fabinho.



Salah's shot ended up going just wide, but that wasn't clear for 95% of the situation.



While Silva missed a good amount of games in his first season, he still played more than 2700 minutes overall, which is decent. (All club games count for this draft, not just PL.) This season, he already matches these numbers with lots left to play. Conclusions can be drawn from 5400+ minutes.



The majority of these losses came when everything went south under Lampard, but you'll find few Chelsea fans making out Silva as a reason for that. On the contrary, he was generally seen as one of the few still standing when the team as a whole went to pot. The majority of the Silva-less wins came under Tuchel, when the team was excellent in general. Results =/= performance level of one individual.

Plus, again, this draft is about all club games: Chelsea's record with Silva in cup competitions is 7-2-2 for that season, and 8-0-2 for the current season (one loss being the EFL cup final on penalties). So when deducing from results (as I said, I personally wouldn't do it), why not factor in all of them?



the parts he quoted went missing in the transition but important stuff is here.

Excellent post and detail about Silva this season, I have no additional comments because I definitely agree with everything you type.

 

[General_Elegancia]

Antonio definitely helps him a lot being the fast stopper who can run against any attackers in EPL or do some dirty works to

Chelsea backline. So, it helps Thiago Silva that he is 37 years old now. Silva in this season like you said are still fast

defender and have some athleticism for sure especially jumping ability but he couldn’t run or sprint against attackers every

possessions for sure. Instead of that, he uses reading the game and anticipation to deal with opponent attacks and

another factor is probably Rudiger who has elite level athlecism to deal with any type of strikers. So, Silva probably doesn’t

do unnecessary sprints and he sprints only when it’s necessary and it looks so good due to his intelligence and reading of

the game.

 

[Enigma_87]

well played @Pat_Mustard @TheReligion

your star studded team was one that I really wanted to avoid and not really much between the sides.

@Synco you beautiful man . Strangely enough the Silva-bashing irritated me far more than the criticism of Nev. He's just a superb footballer, and it's been nice to see him add to his reputation at an age where you'd expect him to either be retired or taking it easy in MLS, Qatar or the like.

I know you like him, but we have to disagree on that one. I’ll respond later to @Synco in another post.

 

[TheReligion]

well played @Pat_Mustard @TheReligion

your star studded team was one that I really wanted to avoid and not really much between the sides.


I know you like him, but we have to disagree on that one. I’ll respond later to @Synco in another post.

Well done pal. Good luck in the final.

Can’t say I agree with the result (at the very least it should have been much tighter) then again I’m not that surprised truth be told. Logic goes out the window in draft world!

Good debate with you and @Pat_Mustard. That gif of Henry absolutely rag dolling Desailly deserved a better result!

Congrats. You’re a fair player @Enigma_87

 

[Enigma_87]

@Enigma_87

Seeing my man attacked, so I have to chime in

I watched most Chelsea games featuring Silva, and want to set a few things straight. I understand the need to nitpick on the oppo team in a draft discussion, but this is the wrong target.

What stands out about these mistakes is how uncharacteristic they were for Silva's Chelsea stint in now 60+ appearances. To be clear, what's portrayed here as "his fair share of blunders" were absolute exceptions from the norm. Tag any Chelsea fan on here: Silva has been a quite spectacular example of consistency and excellence throughout his time at the club. (Only Rüdiger can really compare in high-end consistency during Tuchel's spell, but he was out of the team for much of Lampard's last half-season.)

My remarks towards Silva was generally related to not only his age but also his general influence on Chelsea and the short span he played so far there. He played really low amount of games when you consider that he has only one full season under his belt where we can judge him. As the old saying goes titles aren't won in September and October but in May, hence we can't really judge his overall contribution but rather individual level in several games. And whilst he has been very good in most games, there has been lapses in others. Rudiger who you mentioned got picked in the 8th round in the current draft and it's fair to say he isn't that high rated, yet played over 150 games for Chelsea and won FA, LE and other stuff before Silva even came. My observations and opinion on Silva is based on last season, because that's the season that ended and we can judge him on separately.

Silva has actually played quite a lot in a back 4 during the last two seasons, both for Chelsea and Brazil. In the games I saw, he looked pretty much the same player, which includes a few outings in 2022. The team as a whole had far less stability under Lampard, but that's not the same. Playing in a back three helps everyone, but I've seen no indication Silva's level actually drops in a back four. He's still far from slow physically, and maybe the quickest defender out there mentally.

If there are any doubts about the level of athleticism Silva still has at 37, watch this example from last month's League Cup final. It's also a showcase for his unusual level of anticipation - how many players (let alone 37 year-olds) would have bothered to make this run after being up high for a corner? Silva insta-calculated he could still impact the play, and went all in. He's already in full sprint before (!) the stray pass reaches Fabinho.



Salah's shot ended up going just wide, but that wasn't clear for 95% of the situation.

In that Pool game he was great that I agree, but can't agree that physically he's the same player at his peak at Milan and PSG. Yes he's not slow, but he's slower and not as solid as before. I don't get to watch all Chavs matches, from those I've seen he's still solid, but not one of the best in the league.

While Silva missed a good amount of games in his first season, he still played more than 2700 minutes overall, which is decent. (All club games count for this draft, not just PL.) This season, he already matches these numbers with lots left to play. Conclusions can be drawn from 5400+ minutes.

The majority of these losses came when everything went south under Lampard, but you'll find few Chelsea fans making out Silva as a reason for that. On the contrary, he was generally seen as one of the few still standing when the team as a whole went to pot. The majority of the Silva-less wins came under Tuchel, when the team was excellent in general. Results =/= performance level of one individual.

Plus, again, this draft is about all club games: Chelsea's record with Silva in cup competitions is 7-2-2 for that season, and 8-0-2 for the current season (one loss being the EFL cup final on penalties). So when deducing from results (as I said, I personally wouldn't do it), why not factor in all of them?

the parts he quoted went missing in the transition but important stuff is here.

What I posted on last page was his contribution in CL and PL, not just PL stats. In EFL he played in Barnsley win and didn't play against Spurs. In FA cup he played in the final and SF in 1 win 1 loss scenario. In CL his record included missing games against Sevilla away(which decided the group), the slugfests against Atletico and the first game against Porto (played only 10 mins there). He also featured 39 mins in the final(injured in the first). In the Real game most reports have both Christensen and Rudiger rated higher than him, with Rudiger undoubtedly better performer on the night they advanced:

In PL, his contribution also really wasn't all that in the grand scheme of things. After Tuchel took over, he played 9 games out of 19 games(one of which was that WBA game, largely due to him, Chelsea were leading before the red). His record was 5 wins 1 draw 3 losses. Missed the games against United, Pool, Everton, City. The only big games he featured was against Spurs(36 mins) and Arsenal.

All in all his contribution compared to other options at CB to me personally wasn't all that and far from the quality and consistency shown by other players in that position.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

from @Synco to @Enigma_87

No need for us to get into a lengthy back and forth, only saying that in my view your argument relies too much on formalities like stats and records, and not enough on in-game observations. My assessment is that, while last season was already excellent, this one (up until now) actually isn't far from his peak levels, despite the relative physical decline. That's what makes it so unbelievable.

So just summarizing the conclusions you draw...

Majestic is a bit of a stretch.

He has his fair share of blunders as well considering how little he has played compared to everybody else on the pitch.

not as solid as before

he's still solid, but not one of the best in the league

In PL, his contribution also really wasn't all that in the grand scheme of things.

far from the quality and consistency shown by other players in that position.

... I don't think you'll find many regular Chelsea observers who'd see that as a remotely accurate portrayal of the consistency and on-pitch levels Silva has shown, or his overall importance for the team (he was a transformative signing).

Now with me saying all this, watch him feck up in the Newcastle game today...

Finally, congrats on the win, well deserved imo.

 

[Enigma_87]

to @Synco
I respect your opinion mate and for sure will follow him closer

 

[Gio]

Throwing my own two pence into this one. When signing for Chelsea Silva was clearly still at a high level based on an impressive rearguard display for PSG in the CL final against Bayern a couple of weeks before. He oozed class and composure and instantly elevated the organisation of the Chelsea defence with his communication, covering and reading of the game. I thought it was quickly clear that he had joined the top tier of CBs in England along with Van Dijk and Dias, and there's been no drop-off in performances over the last 18 months or so to change that position.

 

[TheReligion]

Strange the below wasn’t enough to get to the final;

* 3 of the best forwards to grace the PL (ever) and GOAT.

* One of the best ever CMs in the world.

* Two elite tier CB’s (one being one of the best to ever play in PL history)

* Best PL right back ever.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Well played @Enigma_87

Was optimistic that our sheer firepower up front would get us through this but it wasn't to be. The plan then was to improve the balance by adding one of the top B2B midfielders in Keane/Vieira/Kante in place of Eriksen, which would have completed the team for us. I'm still not sure it would have been enough to get past Gio in fairness, who somehow managed to finish up the initial drafting miles ahead of everybody and has maintained his advantage quite impressively.

 

[Enigma_87]

Well played @Enigma_87

Was optimistic that our sheer firepower up front would get us through this but it wasn't to be. The plan then was to improve the balance by adding one of the top B2B midfielders in Keane/Vieira/Kante in place of Eriksen, which would have completed the team for us. I'm still not sure it would have been enough to get past Gio in fairness, who somehow managed to finish up the initial drafting miles ahead of everybody and has maintained his advantage quite impressively.

Cheers, Pat. Yeah I think the difference was the another top B2B in the place of Eriksen. Would've loved to see that team and would've freed the attacking trio to do their magic.