Pre Premier League Draft - Semi Finals - Tuppet vs. Enigma/Red Viper

Pre Premier League Draft - Quarter Finals - MJJ vs. EAP

  • Total voters
    31
  • Poll closed .
There is virtually nothing in the match.. It could go either way..

1) Tuppet seems to have the attack - Beardsley and Rush with Barnes and Johnston are slightly better than Lineker, Brady, Sheedy and Francis

2) Enigma seems to have the midfield - Prefer Robson and Ardiles over Murdoch and Ball

3) Defense is more or less even - Combined I would take Cooper, Hansen, Walker and McGrain

I know this is over simplifying the issue but I do feel the game is very even and probably will end up in a draw most times as tactics and teams will cancel each other.

I voted Tuppet mainly because of the Shilton reinforcement.. It tips the scale in his favor just a fraction..
 
Indnyc said:
There is virtually nothing in the match.. It could go either way..

1) Tuppet seems to have the attack - Beardsley and Rush with Barnes and Johnston are slightly better than Lineker, Brady, Sheedy and Francis

2) Enigma seems to have the midfield - Prefer Robson and Ardiles over Murdoch and Ball

3) Defense is more or less even - Combined I would take Cooper, Hansen, Walker and McGrain

I know this is over simplifying the issue but I do feel the game is very even and probably will end up in a draw most times as tactics and teams will cancel each other.

I voted Tuppet mainly because of the Shilton reinforcement.. It tips the scale in his favor just a fraction..
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Aye, fair do's for the attack mate, can't really argue about that and Shilton, but IMO the defence is somewhere that we really do have an edge.

I see that most voters go for Cooper for the name, but he really didn't feature much at the highest level during the time frame. I mean he had 3-4 seasons from 71/72 and was sidelined for 20 months in the first whilst also had to recuperate from that injury and later was sold in 1975.

In terms of career achievement sure, I can understand people going with Cooper, but he has done very little since 71/72 to be considered better than Winterburn.

I feel that having 4 players off their peak is really ignored and they are quite important positions - the CM pair and also a CB and LB, who is against Francis.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Aye, fair do's for the attack mate, can't really argue about that and Shilton, but IMO the defence is somewhere that we really do have an edge.

I see that most voters go for Cooper for the name, but he really didn't feature much at the highest level during the time frame. I mean he had 3-4 seasons from 71/72 and was sidelined for 20 months in the first whilst also had to recuperate from that injury and later was sold in 1975.

In terms of career achievement sure, I can understand people going with Cooper, but he has done very little since 71/72 to be considered better than Winterburn.

I feel that having 4 players off their peak is really ignored and they are quite important positions - the CM pair and also a CB and LB, who is against Francis.
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Hmm.. I missed reading about this in the earlier discussions.. Let me research a bit as this is potentially worth changing my vote
 
@Enigma_87 Terry Copper played most of the 1971-72 season which was pretty much his peak.. After that it becomes a bit more murky because of injuries but he still played 3 years for Boro.. I am not 100% sure if Winterburn was that much better during the draft period
 
Indnyc said:
@Enigma_87 Terry Copper played most of the 1971-72 season which was pretty much his peak.. After that it becomes a bit more murky because of injuries but he still played 3 years for Boro.. I am not 100% sure if Winterburn was that much better during the draft period
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Sure, but that's pretty much 20-30 odd games for the entire draft period to be judged on.

He missed the tail end of the season when the honors are decided and later when he got injured Leeds bought Trevor Cherry as a replacement. It's not really different to Cantona's odd half a season appearance, as when he got back Cooper was pretty much done at the highest level.

Also to reiterate as on right back there is Madeley, he didn't play as a right back during that time Cooper was injured as well.

In the 1971–72 season, Madeley again found himself moving round the side as injuries and suspensions to his teammates, and in the end he never missed a League match, though for a third year in a row Leeds failed to clinch the title on the last day of the season. In April 1972, left back Terry Cooper suffered a broken leg, so Madeley switched to the No.3 shirt for the season's end and the FA Cup final, which Leeds finally won with a 1–0 win over Arsenal.
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Revie signed Trevor Cherry as a replacement for Cooper in the summer of 1972, and Madeley moved across to the centre of defence for much of the next season as Jack Charlton's distinguished career at Leeds wound down.[8] He wore the No.5 shirt as Leeds lost the FA Cup final to Sunderland, and then switched back to the left wing and the No.11 shirt for the European Cup Winners Cup final a few days later in Salonika, which Leeds lost to A.C. Milan in controversial circumstances.

Leeds won the League in 1974 – Madeley missing just three matches – and even after Revie's departure that summer to take over the England job, reached their first and only European Cup final a year later, with Madeley in the No.5 shirt again.
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So in essence Madeley played as a right back on consistent basis after the 1974 season and after his 30's in the draft period in question.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Sure, but that's pretty much 20-30 odd games for the entire draft period to be judged on.

He missed the tail end of the season when the honors are decided and later when he got injured Leeds bought Trevor Cherry as a replacement. It's not really different to Cantona's odd half a season appearance, as when he got back Cooper was pretty much done at the highest level.

Also to reiterate as on right back there is Madeley, he didn't play as a right back during that time Cooper was injured as well.

So in essence Madeley played as a right back on consistent basis after the 1974 season and after his 30's in the draft period in question.
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Madeley was comfortable on both positions though.. He actually played a lot of time as Right back for England (understand his performances there aren't being considered)

I do see your point on Cooper.. Changed my vote
 
Indnyc said:
Madeley was comfortable on both positions though.. He actually played a lot of time as Right back for England (understand his performances there aren't being considered)

I do see your point on Cooper.. Changed my vote
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Cheers mate! :)

Yeah no objections on Madeley on right back, just wanted to give a proper overview of the Leeds backline at the time.

To be perfectly honest I didn't consider Madeley to be that versatile before this draft and after researching Hunter's form in the time period and that title run, but then when we consider form/ability in the period in question IMO it's always important to note as we get to learn more about the players during that time.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Cheers mate! :)

Yeah no objections on Madeley on right back, just wanted to give a proper overview of the Leeds backline at the time.

To be perfectly honest I didn't consider Madeley to be that versatile before this draft and after researching Hunter's form in the time period and that title run, but then when we consider form/ability in the period in question IMO it's always important to note as we get to learn more about the players during that time.
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I did research Madeley and was about to pick him but Tuppet got there first.
 
Enigma_87 said:
I think Tuppet would really struggle with keeping possession in midfield. Murdoch is past his prime and with little to no help from the wingers they'll find themselves outnumbered there.

I think Cooper is tad overrated given the time frame. He didn't really feature all that lot due to injuries and apart from 6-7 months he wasn't at his peak level IMO.

The midfield definitely lacks defensive edge and won't protect the defence in the same way our midfield does.

Besides on counters they would leave a lot of space that we can exploit and neither of Tuppet's CB's are particularly fast or can handle our forwards when caught higher up the pitch.
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Nah, he's got two MFers who are perfectly capable of holding their own in midfield and certainly against Ardiles. Ardiles needs a player behind him to allow him to get his passing game going and if that's Robson, then Robson can't do his thing. Similarly Robson needs a player behind him to allow him to surge up and if that's Ardiles, he can't at his best game. Midfield is three very good individuals that need a different formation to the one they have. From comments, Robson is going to shield defence, hold the midfield for possession AND make B2B runs.... I know he was good but......?

Don't get the counter comment - why would a 442 be less able to cope against counters than what looks like a 433? Brady isn't helping out and in terms of counters, Tuppets front four is A1 and in terms of wingers alone, not even close.
The Red Viper said:
Beardsley is up against Walker - Hunter with help from Robson. I think they'll do a solid job against him. Robson dominated against the likes of Maradona and Platini. As good as Beardsley was and I love him, he isn't as good as those two.

Now compare it to Brady who is up against past his peak and overweight, Murdoch on his own, he stands no chance against Brady. And yeah, there's the runs from Robson and Ardiles which Tuppet's midfield also has to worry about and have no answer against.

Regarding why we chose Ardiles over Thijssen, Thijssen was a very good player. But we feel Ardiles was a better player. Not to mention, he would sit Robson lot more than Thijssen would have. Thijssen was gritty and had excellent close control. Ardiles was a much better passer and playmaker. Having a playmaker deep means, we don't put more work-load on Robson and let him do what he does best. Just dominate the game as a box-box midfielder, in a game, where he won't have much resistance whenever he makes runs into opposition half. Also, with Ardiles, we have a player who with his passing ability and passing range, can initiate swift counter attacks from the back and exploit the lack of pace in Tuppet's defense and midfield. As good as Hansen was, pace was his kryptonite. And with Lineker having a good record against him, we expect Gary to pounce in and get a goal or two.
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@Gio may be better placed but from what I know about Murdoch, overweight and past his peak seems a bit harsh - I've read stories on Celtic trying to help him with it but not to the extent it stopped him being a very good player. In terms of being on his own against Brady, then why is Beardsley against three players? one being Robson who's also controlling midfield and being a B2B? It's just saying "Robson will do that" and relying on his name because at different times of different games he did bits of all of that. MF support of Ardiles and Brady isn't a MF to get the best out of Robson (as much as I love him).

And the Hansen "pace was his kryptonite" comment ..... :lol:
 
BeforeKeanetherewasRobson said:
Nah, he's got two MFers who are perfectly capable of holding their own in midfield and certainly against Ardiles. Ardiles needs a player behind him to allow him to get his passing game going and if that's Robson, then Robson can't do his thing. Similarly Robson needs a player behind him to allow him to surge up and if that's Ardiles, he can't at his best game. Midfield is three very good individuals that need a different formation to the one they have. From comments, Robson is going to shield defence, hold the midfield for possession AND make B2B runs.... I know he was good but......?

Don't get the counter comment - why would a 442 be less able to cope against counters than what looks like a 433? Brady isn't helping out and in terms of counters, Tuppets front four is A1 and in terms of wingers alone, not even close.
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Robson is in his B2B role mate. Sure he'll drop back when off the ball and then surge forward when we're in possession, we aren't asking something that is unfamiliar for him.

It's basically a direct 4-3-3 with our midfield pressing the opposition off the ball. Brady is helping out and he is part of the midfield and attack like he used to do. Basically our link up man between the zones. His natural game was to drop back a bit and also participate in the defensive phase than move the ball forward either with his runs or with a pass in space.

Jinky and Barnes won't help in the midfield battle as it's not really the role that would suit them. As good as Ball and Murdoch were they aren't at their best here, especially Murdoch who played around 35 games in the league for Celtic in the period in question and then was sold.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Very dicey. After some wavering, I went with Tuppet because I reckon he'd shade the match through a quick counter. Hansen vs Lineker will be a good battle and I'd say it's a even break between them.
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I actually think it would go the other way around and us exploiting the space but fair comment, wanted to check if you are still on the fence. :D
 
Well done @Tuppet ! That is seriously heavy up top unit you got there and was really up and down game right down the wire :lol:

But that 2 quick vote combo in the end did it for you. Good luck in the final !
 
Enigma_87 said:
Robson is in his B2B role mate. Sure he'll drop back when off the ball and then surge forward when we're in possession, we aren't asking something that is unfamiliar for him.

It's basically a direct 4-3-3 with our midfield pressing the opposition off the ball. Brady is helping out and he is part of the midfield and attack like he used to do. Basically our link up man between the zones. His natural game was to drop back a bit and also participate in the defensive phase than move the ball forward either with his runs or with a pass in space.

Jinky and Barnes won't help in the midfield battle as it's not really the role that would suit them. As good as Ball and Murdoch were they aren't at their best here, especially Murdoch who played around 35 games in the league for Celtic in the period in question and then was sold.
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Thanks, I'm fine with the understanding. I get what you're saying, just don't agree especially with the use of Robson - everyone's view is different but Robson isn't in his B2B role, unless United played a 433 that I missed.

As for Brady dropping back for the defensive phase like he used to, when? And if so, why is he at the tip of a 433 formation?

As I said, three individually good players but not suited for this formation and just "names". Tuppets players are playing where they did and, as I've said, the goals threat of that front four is huge (unless you want to post career goal stats in the draft period?)

I know what Robson can do and I can assure you, my natural inclination/bias is to lean towards him and probably err away from Liverpool players but Robson isn't for a 433 and these front three Liverpool players across years and years were BRILLIANT.

imo

(PS. left reply until after draft end. Just my opinion).
 
Congratulations @Tuppet Great team and that forward line is easily the best in the draft
 
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