Prath vs P-nut/Enigma - Tactical Draft

[Raees]

Seeler reminds me of a nuclear powered Rooney from 09/10 (remember that Spurs performance??)... and he is kind of a b2B cf/false 9/complete number 9 rolled into one. Fantastic touch, vision, hold up play, comes deep play makes, as well as running channels, good passer and superb in the air - phenomenal all round player and I don't see him and Rooney being ideal for each other.

I'd prefer him in a 4-3-3 with wing forwards (one who can cross and other who's a goal threat) and midfielders with some goal threat.

Ideally it would be something like

Ronaldo Seeler Matthews
Pogba Vidal
Alonso
​

Random collection of players but in terms of blueprint, he'd have some wing forwards who can score and let him come deep and in Matthews someone who can supply him as well and in Pogba someone who can score goals (when he matures) but also link up and create for him and another midfielder who can also score goals but workfare to strengthen defence and help out CDM.

Also to get best out of Seeler you need a passing game because he's so good in possession hence all player at CDM.

Love Praths defence, enigmas side I like the attacking trio but rest of the side I'm not too in love with at the moment.

 

[Ecstatic]

I have always seen that Alves in drafts here is seen as suspect at defending (can't fault them tbh. He has been critiscized as such in reality as well). So if some exceptional winger is put on that flank, then there would be a vulnerability defensively. I wanted to mitigate that with gattuso covering that side alongside Kompany.

In a draft, we always consider the peak of a player.

I deeply believe Dani Alves is underrated defensively because 1) he was great offensively 2) he is Brazilian and 3)because he played for a club that ruled/destroyed Europe ie. we always try to find a weakness somewhere, as you can't say a bad word about Messi/Ronaldinho/Eto'o/Xavi/Iniesta, then you have to blame a defender.

For instance, I do remember Prime Lyon playing against Prime Barcelona in 2009 (1st leg lyon 1-1 barcelona): if you listen the Lyon players before the return, they would say 'Oh, impossible mission but we have identified that Dani Alvès attacks a lot: potential weakness'

Outcome-return: Barcelona scored 4 goals in 18 minutes (and they had certainly more than 10 great opportunities to score)

 

[2mufc0]

The position/role Vasovic is playing, is he playing sweeper? Or more David Luiz Chelsea style?

Gattuso would be fine with Sousa, there is precedence it can work as Gattuso was very successful when paired with Pirlo and Sousa although not as good, he is comparable in style. not sure about Veron's position, did he ever play that deep?

 

[Gio]

I went for Prath because his tactical set-up seemed cleaner and more straightforward. His basic premise of a hard-working 4-4-2 with strong flanks is well designed. Nice complementarity in the central midfield partnership with both excelling in notoriously hard-working midfields that were superb on the counter.

While I like the majority of Pnut's team and the attacking trio is well set up, as others have said I'm not sold on a Coluna/Veron partnership. Both really shone with one or even two foils next to them and probably overlap in their roles in some ways IMO - which I think makes it difficult for Mazzola to get as involved with the game as he would like to be.

 

[Ecstatic]

The position/role Vasovic is playing, is he playing sweeper? Or more David Luiz Chelsea style?

Gattuso would be fine with Sousa, there is precedence it can work as Gattuso was very successful when paired with Pirlo and Sousa although not as good, he is comparable in style. not sure about Veron's position, did he ever play that deep?

His career peak was in Italy and we had generally something like that

Parma

..........................................BUFFON..........................................
...............................................................................................
.....................THURAM.........SENSINI.........CANNAVARO................
...............................................................................................
FUSER..................D.BAGGIO.........BOGHOSSIAN.........BENARRIVO
.........................................VERON............................................
................................................................................................
..............................CRESPO...........CHIESA..................................

Lazio

...............................MARCHEGIANI...............................
..................................................................................
NEGRO................NESTA..........MIHAJLOVIC........PANCARO
...................................................................................
CONCEICAO.......SIMEONE...........VERON.............NEDVED..
...................................................................................
..........................MANCINI..........SALAS..........................

 

[Gio]

As a big Veron fan, what he did at Lazio in a midfield four testifies to his all-roundedness and overall quality. No surprise though that his trusted lieutenant Simeone was by his side both there and with Argentina doing all the dirty work to free him up to execute his exceptional passing range and vision.

 

[Enigma_87]

The position/role Vasovic is playing, is he playing sweeper? Or more David Luiz Chelsea style?

Gattuso would be fine with Sousa, there is precedence it can work as Gattuso was very successful when paired with Pirlo and Sousa although not as good, he is comparable in style. not sure about Veron's position, did he ever play that deep?

Vasovic is playing in a true libero position mate. In his Ajax days he used to push up to midfield so we will have numbers there which gets overlooked. Essentially him and Ze Roberto will be shoring the midfield and helping bot Veron and Coluna out.

The basic premise of Veron is his passing range and with a deep defensive line he will be pretty fine, especially with all round powerhouse like Coluna next to him. If we were playing 4-4-2 and a normal line I could agree with maybe including a Simeone type in there as a part of a midfield two, but 5-3-2 with one of the best liberos in history(and in this draft in particular) in Vasovic is a whole different matter.

That plus the deep line won't leave our midfield exposed and Coluna/Veron moving vertically and also moving the ball fast is part of their natural game and frankly what we're looking for here.

 

[Oaencha]

This was a really tough decision. I've voted but there was hardly anything in it.

Good job to Prath, P-Nut & Enigma. I can see a lot of planning and effort went into the write ups.

I'll give feedback a bit later when I get back from work.

 

[Ecstatic]

I'm fine with the defensive solidity of both teams.

5 defenders + Coluna/Veron is a robust unit.

The debates should be more focused on the offensive strategy, which has to be the main matter as the spirit of this draft is to make shine the central figure and get the most out of him.

Tight game 'from a tactical perspective'.

 

[Enigma_87]

I went for Prath because his tactical set-up seemed cleaner and more straightforward. His basic premise of a hard-working 4-4-2 with strong flanks is well designed. Nice complementarity in the central midfield partnership with both excelling in notoriously hard-working midfields that were superb on the counter.

While I like the majority of Pnut's team and the attacking trio is well set up, as others have said I'm not sold on a Coluna/Veron partnership. Both really shone with one or even two foils next to them and probably overlap in their roles in some ways IMO - which I think makes it difficult for Mazzola to get as involved with the game as he would like to be.

I think the premise is whether the system will fit the main player more rather than the formation and who will win the fantasy encounter between the two sides, which should be what this draft is all about.

To be honest I don't think a counter attacking style suits Seeler at all tbh.

 

[Gio]

I think the premise is whether the system will fit the main player more rather than the formation and who will win the fantasy encounter between the two sides, which should be what this draft is all about.

For sure and I'm not really considering how a match would pan out between the sides. But you can only really judge a system in the context of a match, and in the context of any match, I think the midfield duo aren't hugely complementary which might limit what Mazzola can do.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

@prath92 @P-Nut0712 @Enigma_87 invictus vote wont count as he only tested the poll and for some reason he doesnt want to vote in this game.

 

[P-Nut]

@prath92 @P-Nut0712 @Enigma_87 invictus vote wont count as he only tested the poll and for some reason he doesnt want to vote in this game.

No worries. Really close game then. My only worry is people don't seem to be understanding Vasović position fully.

When we attack quickly and get the ball to our front three, Vasović will follow the ball up field, and would probably track Rooney who is likely to move back deep to get in the ball.
Combine this with Ze Roberto tucking in when Mazzola has the ball as well.

That makes iur midfield effectively becomes a 4 man midfield at this point. Now when Prath turns the ball over. Our team retreats and sits in closing the gaps between defence and attack, however Vasović would still be pressuring Rooney so if Praths team was looking to overload the midfield we have a top Libero helping out.

I understand this isn't a straight up match but it shows how Seeler will be denied space to work and become isolated very easily.

 

[Enigma_87]

Think Vasovic role and generally the libero role we have chosen to come up with the 5-3-2 in this set up gets underrated and unappreciated.

Vasovic in his vertical movement will provide the midfield support at the base of it like he did for Michels AJAX.

Moreover, Michels realised that though there was an abundance of talent, the correct mindset was missing. Too often, as Dutch mentalities can tend to be, there was a lack of a winning mentality in the young Ajax squad. They lacked the arrogance, (which for many, is what actuallywould turn out to be the hamartia of the Oranje in the 1974 World Cup final) and self-assurance. So, Rinus Michels set out on an expedition to search high and low for a player who ticked these boxes for him, perhaps the final jigsaw of his own goudenploeg (golden team).

In short, he was hoping to chance upon Velibor Vasovic.

Knowing that Ajax would contest in the European Cup, having won the Eredivisie, Michels was not one who would settle for losses in Europe, writing them off as ‘experience’. As a result, his search began right after Ajax had triumphed in the league. Michels had watched Vasovic’s Partizan lose to a Real Madrid with the likes of Pirri and Gento in Brussels, but was highly impressed with the Yugoslav centreback’s tendency to burst out in attack when he was in possession of the ball. He approached Vasovic through a mutual friend and official talks were held in October of 1966, a few months before ‘de Mistwestrijd’ thrashing of Shankly’s Liverpool and the subsequent disappointing exit at the hands of underdogs Dukla Prague.

“When I came, I preferred to play a kind of total football. I played the last man in defence, the libero. Michels made this plan to play very offensive football. We discussed it. I was the architect, together with Michels, of the aggressive way of defending. I did small things, like make an offisde or stand in the wall to make a gap for goals. When you see examples from other players on field, you learn a hundred times better than in training,” he said, with the same air of confidence he had around him when he arrived at Ajax. His self-assurance became contagious at the de Meer, not the least infecting Johan Cruijff, who looked to the Prozevac-born defender like his elder brother.

Moroever, Vasovic had a resilient aura about him that was ever so vital in transforming Ajax from a team that played beautifully to a team that won beautifully. There was a lot more steel in the Golden Ajax team than many romantics would have you believe and Vasovic made sure that the defence remained efficient while being offensive and aggressive. Vasco was one who certainly knew the detour from the road of arrogance to the road of complacency and with the help of Michels, made sure he and the team were on the right track.

Vasovic realised his defence’s relative positions compared to the opponent attacker’s and urged his defenders to move forward and decrease the space or ‘pitch’ available for the opponents. This was effectively, the invention of the offside trap and the high line that Ajax still use today.

Moreover, it involved the very Dutch concept of space, which Michels based Total Football on. As Barry Hulshoff puts it, “You make space, you come into space.”. The more successful Ajax teams – including the recent hattrick-championship-winning ones – have always been built on a foundation of technically brilliant defenders who are more-than-capable passers, and Vasovic was the one who undoubtedly set the precedent. As David Winner puts it, Vasovic was a ‘battle-hardened veteran and inspiring competitor who could teach the youngsters a thing or two about winning football matches.’

In this set up we have chose two CB's like Puyol and Samuel who are no nonsense defenders and who will stay back when Vasovic makes his forays in midfield.

It was pretty much the same after he made his stamp on the golden Ajax team with Hulshoff staying always back.

Ajax had been completely dominated in midfield. The 4-2-4 was now nearly a decade outdated and Michels needed greater balance and extra players in the middle of the park. His solution came in two parts. First, he abandoned the 4-2-4 in favour of a balanced 4-3-3. Second, was the utilisation of centre back Vasovic as a Libero. Now when Ajax were defending Vasovic functioned as a sweeper and when the team were attacking he could push forward into midfield turning the 4-3-3 into a 3-4-3.

The reason behind Coluna and Veron playing together and that I can't agree that they arent complimentary especially with Vasovic role at in the base of the midfield when pushing up is that they offer pretty different things on the pitch. Coluna is a complete midfield powerhouse with a lot of stamina, determination and energy, while Veron offers the positional and tactical nous as well with his passing range, creativity and vision.

 

[Enigma_87]

@prath92 @P-Nut0712 @Enigma_87 invictus vote wont count as he only tested the poll and for some reason he doesnt want to vote in this game.

No worries mate. Appreciate his work in the thread so we can have the poll up

For sure and I'm not really considering how a match would pan out between the sides. But you can only really judge a system in the context of a match, and in the context of any match, I think the midfield duo aren't hugely complementary which might limit what Mazzola can do.

Well as you mentioned Veron played for Lazio alongside another dynamic box to box player in Simeone. When you take into consideration also the libero role of Vasovic I don't think the midfield lacks the steel, defensive ability, neither being solid enough or lacking creativity.

Coluna and Veron are very different players and offer different things when played as a pair. Think both would thrive even more together than for example the Simeone/Veron pair for Lazio.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

i dont see an issue with that midfield, yes its a midfield two but they also have back three behind, its not like they are playing in 442 as there they would be a bit lightweight but not here.

 

[P-Nut]

Well done to @prath92 really close game between 2 good sides

 

[Enigma_87]

aye well done @prath92 you have build an excellent 4-4-2 and really love your formation and personnel in it.

 

[2mufc0]

Who won this game? minus Enigma, P-Nut and Invictus votes it's 16-16.

Edit it's 15 for Prath i didn't minus his vote.

 

[prath92]

Was fun creating the side. I had never done this before so it was a new experience as well. But my inexperience showed quite often

You do have a good side @P-Nut0712 and @Enigma_87 . I didn't know some of them and was great knowing them. All the best

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Ah, I just came here to switch votes for prath.

 

[P-Nut]

Ah, I just came here to switch votes for prath.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Good team...except for Veron. I didn't find the part time support from Vasovic convincing. Though the rest of your set up is stellar. Was leaning towards you, but finally decided prath's workmanlike team will grind out a boring win here.

 

[P-Nut]

Good team...except for Veron. I didn't find the part time support from Vasovic convincing. Though the rest of your set up is stellar. Was leaning towards you, but finally decided prath's workmanlike team will grind out a boring win here.

Shame I think it works perfectly well in a deep set up. If we would have had a back 4 or a high line I can see the problem but the way we set up negated those problems I feel.

 

[Gio]

Think Vasovic role and generally the libero role we have chosen to come up with the 5-3-2 in this set up gets underrated and unappreciated.

Vasovic in his vertical movement will provide the midfield support at the base of it like he did for Michels AJAX.











In this set up we have chose two CB's like Puyol and Samuel who are no nonsense defenders and who will stay back when Vasovic makes his forays in midfield.

It was pretty much the same after he made his stamp on the golden Ajax team with Hulshoff staying always back.



The reason behind Coluna and Veron playing together and that I can't agree that they arent complimentary especially with Vasovic role at in the base of the midfield when pushing up is that they offer pretty different things on the pitch. Coluna is a complete midfield powerhouse with a lot of stamina, determination and energy, while Veron offers the positional and tactical nous as well with his passing range, creativity and vision.

I buy Vasovic offering that extra bonus on the ball. Whether that's needed in that midfield is another story, but still it's all good stuff. What I'm not convinced about is the duo of Coluna and Veron off the ball as presumably Vasovic is operating at sweeper covering the CBs? They've both well-rounded enough, it's just I'd prefer a naturally defensive minded midfielder in there to ensure the gaps in the midfield are always plugged and to let the other star show their ability on the ball.

 

[Enigma_87]

I buy Vasovic offering that extra bonus on the ball. Whether that's needed in that midfield is another story, but still it's all good stuff. What I'm not convinced about is the duo of Coluna and Veron off the ball as presumably Vasovic is operating at sweeper covering the CBs? They've both well-rounded enough, it's just I'd prefer a naturally defensive minded midfielder in there to ensure the gaps in the midfield are always plugged and to let the other star show their ability on the ball.

Depends on the opposition I guess. If we're to face a 4-4-2 like the above game or in principle I think Vasovic will plug those holes moving vertically while one of the CB's will mark the opposition striker. If we play against a designated #10 again he'll be the spare man in defense. In a 4-4-2 probably against some midfields they could face a tougher task but again Veron did pretty well with B2B Simeone at Lazio. It in a 5-3-2 with a deep approach where they won't be caught up field all the time I think it's a bit overstated to be honest.

Veron positional and defensive game is often overlooked in these drafts though whilst his other abilities like vision and passing don't strike with the general audience to an extent that is highlighted or match winning ability. At least my impression of him when I've picked him.

 

[Gio]

Veron positional and defensive game is often overlooked in these drafts though whilst his other abilities like vision and passing don't strike with the general audience to an extent that is highlighted or match winning ability. At least my impression of him when I've picked him.

Agreed.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Depends on the opposition I guess. If we're to face a 4-4-2 like the above game or in principle I think Vasovic will plug those holes moving vertically while one of the CB's will mark the opposition striker. If we play against a designated #10 again he'll be the spare man in defense. In a 4-4-2 probably against some midfields they could face a tougher task but again Veron did pretty well with B2B Simeone at Lazio. It in a 5-3-2 with a deep approach where they won't be caught up field all the time I think it's a bit overstated to be honest.

Veron positional and defensive game is often overlooked in these drafts though whilst his other abilities like vision and passing don't strike with the general audience to an extent that is highlighted or match winning ability. At least my impression of him when I've picked him.

Aye, it seems like alot of people judge the defensive aspect of his game from his time in England when his confidence completely deserted him. He's demonstrated a considerably higher level in that part of his game at other stages in his career. I don't have much issue with Veron/coluna protected by a three man defence. It's not watertight but its hardly wide open either, and its obviously superb in the creative sense.