Potential Matic Replacements

[justsomebloke]

Rice's stats for passing on pretty much all counts, long, short, forward, through balls etc are a match for McT's per 90 minutes, or infact beat McT's as a percentage overall.

The facts are there online, so not sure why you keep trying to disprove me! Very odd.

For example, long pass accuracy for McT is 60.71% per 90, for Rice its 61.98%. His unsuccesful long rate passing is 1.5 per 90, Fred's and McT's are 1.9 respectively. Rices overall passing accuracy is 88% compared to around 87% for Fred and McT. Rice also has less unsuccesful passes than Fred and McT.
Honestly I could go on, but quite frankly its all there online.

Fred does indeed beat him in most other aspects, but again Fred isn't really a Matic replacement which is what we are discussing here, but for what it's worth, I really rate Fred.

With regards to similar players, its a difficult one but looking at players heat maps tends to give an idea of their actual tactical position and Doucoure at Everton is close to a holding player, Kalvin Phillips is too, although he does often stride forward more than Rice (again evident via heat map), Shelvey is also. Now I am in no way saying I want any one of them at United, (Although Phillips isn't bad), I just think that given their passing ability and the way they play lends themselves to a metronome type player.

Er, yes, the facts are there online, but the point is that they contradict your claim that Rice's passing stats are good.

Although that naturally depends on who you compare them with. If you compare them with the rest of the West Ham squad, they may be good. If you compare them with Scott McTominay, they may be a match, but surely the point here is that if we are buying someone for their passing, then it should be significantly better than McTominay's. If you compare them with most other possible transfer targets discussed on this thread, they are not good.

The figures you quote in your comparisons are not the same ones that are on fbref, presumably because the inclusiveness is different (includes cup games, I would think?) But I won't get into that.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

On the flipside, (some) people want us to sign Neves when he couldn't dominate a midfield of Matic-VDB surrounded by a bunch of u23 players.

For what it's worth, I think judging any player off a single match is a bit pointless. He's not an obscure player, plenty of people have watched Kessie many times and can offer a balanced opinion. Stats wise Kessie has the best avg score of any CDM in Serie A on whoscored and is one of two best CMs along with Manuel Locatelli of Sassuolo. He seems to be in most publication's Serie A team of the season for 20-21.

I was going to say this, simply because this was what it looked like when I watched the game. However, according to stats, which a lot of people like to use nowadays, Neves had the most passes (82) and the most touches (99) in the game. He also made the most tackles (5) and the most accurate long balls (11) with Coady second with (6).

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...021-Wolverhampton-Wanderers-Manchester-United

 

[RuudTom83]

Is that path to the CM pivot though. Also, I don't know if there's a Donny situation. The club has been pretty categorical he stays.

Yeah i dont expect Donny to leave, but in my mind the situation with him is...does he have a place in the team? is he in the managers plans etc.

 

[MadMike]

I was going to say this, simply because this was what it looked like when I watched the game. However, according to stats, which a lot of people like to use nowadays, Neves had the most passes (82) and the most touches (99) in the game. He also made the most tackles (5) and the most accurate long balls (11) with Coady second with (6).

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...021-Wolverhampton-Wanderers-Manchester-United

I mean, they did play a midfield 3 (Dendoncker, Neves, Moutinho) vs 2 (Matic - VDB) and they were chasing the game for a long time thus having more possession (58-42). That resulted in Neves being more involved in the play than our CMs, naturally. However we were never really too pressured or had problems playing out, while being threatening in the counter attacks.

It's not that Neves had a bad game, per se. He did alright, but their midfield didn't create many openings for their attack and he is their most creative midfielder. The whole "dominated the game/midfield" metric is very flawed and subjective anyway.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

I mean, they did play a midfield 3 (Dendoncker, Neves, Moutinho) vs 2 (Matic - VDB) and they were chasing the game for a long time thus having more possession (58-42). That resulted in Neves being more involved in the play than our CMs, naturally. However we were never really too pressured or had problems playing out, while being threatening in the counter attacks.

It's not that Neves had a bad game, per se. He did alright, but their midfield didn't create many openings for their attack and he is their most creative midfielder. The whole "dominated the game/midfield" metric is very flawed and subjective anyway.

100% this.

 

[DJ_21]

I’d love that camanvinga from Rennes, I read up once that he has the most tackles in Europe and is up there with AWB. He would be a quality addition to our squad and his only young aswell.

 

[Sea-Cow]

I mean, they did play a midfield 3 (Dendoncker, Neves, Moutinho) vs 2 (Matic - VDB) and they were chasing the game for a long time thus having more possession (58-42). That resulted in Neves being more involved in the play than our CMs, naturally. However we were never really too pressured or had problems playing out, while being threatening in the counter attacks.

It's not that Neves had a bad game, per se. He did alright, but their midfield didn't create many openings for their attack and he is their most creative midfielder. The whole "dominated the game/midfield" metric is very flawed and subjective anyway.

The thing about Neves for me, and why I have never wanted us to sign him despite his penchant for the occasional long-range banger, is because in our matches against Wolves I'm always more impressed by Moutinho.

If Moutinho was five years younger or so I'd say we should sign him, but I'm not convinced by his young counterpart.

 

[beingshe7don]

How many of you on the forum wouldn't mind AWB as a DM like the Kante sort? He's our best tackler and he's almost impossible to get past. He's got the engine as well. He's not the best passer but I think he makes up for it with his robust tackling and pace. I mean that would help solve the 'free Pogba' issue as well as give AWB a chance to play for England. We could bring in a Max Aarons to fill the RB spot for cheap. @Adnan any thoughts?

 

[MadMike]

The thing about Neves for me, and why I have never wanted us to sign him despite his penchant for the occasional long-range banger, is because in our matches against Wolves I'm always more impressed by Moutinho.

If Moutinho was five years younger or so I'd say we should sign him, but I'm not convinced by his young counterpart.

Agreed, he is a class midfielder. I was always a big fan of his.

When he was 25 (back in 2012) and Fergie was fielding makeshift midfields with Rafael and O’Shea, I was seriously clamouring for us to sign him from Porto. Watching him in Europe for Porto as well as for Portugal, his quality was obvious. Instead we lost our most talented young midfielder (Pogba) to Juventus for free that summer and then Moutinho went to Monaco for £20m. Kept watching in despair as teams with a quarter of our budget kept buying up the most obviously talented midfielders while we fielded defenders in CM.

Honestly, not sure our midfield recruitment strategy is much improved since Fergie. Fellaini, Schneiderlin, Schweinsteiger, Fred, a declining Matic... we just struggle to pick good CMs/DMs at the right time. Carrick was the last truly good purchase.

 

[JohnnyLaw]

How many of you on the forum wouldn't mind AWB as a DM like the Kante sort? He's our best tackler and he's almost impossible to get past. He's got the engine as well. He's not the best passer but I think he makes up for it with his robust tackling and pace. I mean that would help solve the 'free Pogba' issue as well as give AWB a chance to play for England. We could bring in a Max Aarons to fill the RB spot for cheap. @Adnan any thoughts?

We know that other teams already target him as the weak point in our build up play, why would you ever consider putting him center?

 

[MadMike]

How many of you on the forum wouldn't mind AWB as a DM like the Kante sort? He's our best tackler and he's almost impossible to get past. He's got the engine as well. He's not the best passer but I think he makes up for it with his robust tackling and pace. I mean that would help solve the 'free Pogba' issue as well as give AWB a chance to play for England. We could bring in a Max Aarons to fill the RB spot for cheap. @Adnan any thoughts?

I think playing a player like AWB (who so clearly struggles with ball control and accurate short passing) in CM is about as good an idea as choosing to play Russian roulette with all 6 bullets in the cylinder.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

How many of you on the forum wouldn't mind AWB as a DM like the Kante sort? He's our best tackler and he's almost impossible to get past. He's got the engine as well. He's not the best passer but I think he makes up for it with his robust tackling and pace. I mean that would help solve the 'free Pogba' issue as well as give AWB a chance to play for England. We could bring in a Max Aarons to fill the RB spot for cheap. @Adnan any thoughts?

Wow!! Heard it all now.

Whilst Fred isn't as good as Kante, we already have that type of midfielder that will get around the pitch.

Unfortunately tor Fred, because he is often the more reserved midfield of the two, it often means he cant always press high up the pitch like Kante, who is often partnered Jorginho - a midfielder who sits and starts attacks.

If we get a midfielder like Jorginho, it would allow Fred to really press on and not always worry about the spaces behind.

 

[Adnan]

.

How many of you on the forum wouldn't mind AWB as a DM like the Kante sort? He's our best tackler and he's almost impossible to get past. He's got the engine as well. He's not the best passer but I think he makes up for it with his robust tackling and pace. I mean that would help solve the 'free Pogba' issue as well as give AWB a chance to play for England. We could bring in a Max Aarons to fill the RB spot for cheap. @Adnan any thoughts?

It would be a very bad idea IMO. Kante is excellent on the ball and alot of people don't realise this. And the Champions League final was another demonstration of his very high IQ when it comes to understanding tactics both offensively and defensively, but also Kante's first touch and technique is superb, where he can get out of a tight spot comfortably facing his own goal which allows Chelsea to progress play. And it's a simple play, but it's made to look simple, due to how quickly Kante can get control of the ball.

First touch/ball control is the most important attribute for a footballer IMO. And for a midfield player, even more so. AWB doesn't have the fundamentals to ever be good enough technically to be close to Kante when it comes to first touch/ball control and it would be a very bad idea to play him in midfield IMHO.

 

[justsomebloke]

How many of you on the forum wouldn't mind AWB as a DM like the Kante sort? He's our best tackler and he's almost impossible to get past. He's got the engine as well. He's not the best passer but I think he makes up for it with his robust tackling and pace. I mean that would help solve the 'free Pogba' issue as well as give AWB a chance to play for England. We could bring in a Max Aarons to fill the RB spot for cheap. @Adnan any thoughts?

You've got a pretty clear response to that, and I'm not gonna be different.

I'll say this though. If there's any truth to the talk about us pursuing Saul Niguez, that's a player that is somewhat along similar lines. His strengths seem to be pretty much all about tackling and blocking, and his weaknesses (which statistically are many) are about pretty much everything else.

 

[justsomebloke]

Yeah i dont expect Donny to leave, but in my mind the situation with him is...does he have a place in the team? is he in the managers plans etc.

Well, that's what they seem to be insisting is the case. But I know, it's hard to believe given this season. So I agree with you that part of it is a situation.

 

[beingshe7don]

We know that other teams already target him as the weak point in our build up play, why would you ever consider putting him center?

I was thinking in the pure destroyer sense rather than someone who would be actively involved in the build-up play. But I get your point.

I think playing a player like AWB (who so clearly struggles with ball control and accurate short passing) in CM is about as good an idea as choosing to play Russian roulette with all 6 bullets in the cylinder.

Point taken!

Wow!! Heard it all now.

Whilst Fred isn't as good as Kante, we already have that type of midfielder that will get around the pitch.

Unfortunately tor Fred, because he is often the more reserved midfield of the two, it often means he cant always press high up the pitch like Kante, who is often partnered Jorginho - a midfielder who sits and starts attacks.

If we get a midfielder like Jorginho, it would allow Fred to really press on and not always worry about the spaces behind.

I get your point but I don't think Jorginho works well with Fred next to him.

.
It would be a very bad idea IMO. Kante is excellent on the ball and alot of people don't realise this. And the Champions League final was another demonstration of his very high IQ when it comes to understanding tactics both offensively and defensively, but also Kante's first touch and technique is superb, where he can get out of a tight spot comfortably facing his own goal which allows Chelsea to progress play. And it's a simple play, but it's made to look simple, due to how quickly Kante can get control of the ball.

First touch/ball control is the most important attribute for a footballer IMO. And for a midfield player, even more so. AWB doesn't have the fundamentals to ever be good enough technically to be close to Kante when it comes to first touch/ball control and it would be a very bad idea to play him in midfield IMHO.

Kante is obviously a freak of nature and yes, I do agree that you need to have the necessary fundamentals and be technically sound to be midfielder. I guess I was looking internally of ways to have us play a single DM as I'm not sure if we will invest in a CDM this summer. But yeah, you're right. AWB won't work in that role.

You've got a pretty clear response to that, and I'm not gonna be different.

I'll say this though. If there's any truth to the talk about us pursuing Saul Niguez, that's a player that is somewhat along similar lines. His strengths seem to be pretty much all about tackling and blocking, and his weaknesses (which statistically are many) are about pretty much everything else.

Saul is still relatively young and could do a good job for us but I guess his price tag will be 50m+. We'd need to probably look for other cheaper alternatives.

 

[Champ]

Er, yes, the facts are there online, but the point is that they contradict your claim that Rice's passing stats are good.

Although that naturally depends on who you compare them with. If you compare them with the rest of the West Ham squad, they may be good. If you compare them with Scott McTominay, they may be a match, but surely the point here is that if we are buying someone for their passing, then it should be significantly better than McTominay's. If you compare them with most other possible transfer targets discussed on this thread, they are not good.

The figures you quote in your comparisons are not the same ones that are on fbref, presumably because the inclusiveness is different (includes cup games, I would think?) But I won't get into that.

If they play in the SAME role is McT then yes.
But when they play I different areas of the pitch then no.

Genuine question, do you play football??

 

[Champ]

Er, yes, the facts are there online, but the point is that they contradict your claim that Rice's passing stats are good.

Although that naturally depends on who you compare them with. If you compare them with the rest of the West Ham squad, they may be good. If you compare them with Scott McTominay, they may be a match, but surely the point here is that if we are buying someone for their passing, then it should be significantly better than McTominay's. If you compare them with most other possible transfer targets discussed on this thread, they are not good.

The figures you quote in your comparisons are not the same ones that are on fbref, presumably because the inclusiveness is different (includes cup games, I would think?) But I won't get into that.

Just an addition to the bolded point,

Maybe it's because stats are correlated from different places?

And again, I Reiterate my point that stats without some form of context are meaningless.

I have checked my stats from multiple sources and all correlate my thoughts.

 

[croadyman]

I was thinking in the pure destroyer sense rather than someone who would be actively involved in the build-up play. But I get your point.


Point taken!


I get your point but I don't think Jorginho works well with Fred next to him.



Kante is obviously a freak of nature and yes, I do agree that you need to have the necessary fundamentals and be technically sound to be midfielder. I guess I was looking internally of ways to have us play a single DM as I'm not sure if we will invest in a CDM this summer. But yeah, you're right. AWB won't work in that role.



Saul is still relatively young and could do a good job for us but I guess his price tag will be 50m+. We'd need to probably look for other cheaper alternatives.

Yeah there is no doubt that this position is gonna be the hardest to sort, definitely get the impression it all hinges on whether we can sell Matic but may have it wrong and it's actually all about whether Pogba leaves. This shouldn't be the case because we only have one proper DM in the whole squad so would be negligent not to address this issue

 

[justsomebloke]

If they play in the SAME role is McT then yes.
But when they play I different areas of the pitch then no.

Genuine question, do you play football??

Just an addition to the bolded point,

Maybe it's because stats are correlated from different places?

And again, I Reiterate my point that stats without some form of context are meaningless.

I have checked my stats from multiple sources and all correlate my thoughts.

Okay. There is no disagreement that stats need context. It's just that you claim that the stats back up your view of Rice as a metronome type of player. I point out his passing stats seem to me to point in the opposite direction, ie that passing is actually a rather weak area of his game, compared to quite a few other players playing in the same position. I'm still waiting for you to put up something to substantiate that claim, and until you do there's not really much more to say.

"Maybe it's because stats are correlated from different places?" What sort of nonsense is that? Do you have a different figure for Declan Rice's pass completion rate because you have "correlated it from different places"?

 

[Adnan]

Okay. There is no disagreement that stats need context. It's just that you claim that the stats back up your view of Rice as a metronome type of player. I point out his passing stats seem to me to point in the opposite direction, ie that passing is actually a rather weak area of his game, compared to quite a few other players playing in the same position. I'm still waiting for you to put up something to substantiate that claim, and until you do there's not really much more to say.

"Maybe it's because stats are correlated from different places?" What sort of nonsense is that? Do you have a different figure for Declan Rice's pass completion rate because you have "correlated it from different places"?

I'd just like to say that I've never been big into stats and have seen many on here fail to contextualize their findings when it comes to deciphering the data. But I must say you're probably the best one I've come across to date and I appreciate your efforts in both presenting the data and also contexualizing it.

Keep up the good work mate.

 

[jeepers]

Can we exchange donny for the Dutch kid and Fred for the french kid? Maybe even lingard? Dalot?

 

[Tony247]

How many of you on the forum wouldn't mind AWB as a DM like the Kante sort? He's our best tackler and he's almost impossible to get past. He's got the engine as well. He's not the best passer but I think he makes up for it with his robust tackling and pace. I mean that would help solve the 'free Pogba' issue as well as give AWB a chance to play for England. We could bring in a Max Aarons to fill the RB spot for cheap. @Adnan any thoughts?

For a good DM sense of positioning and reading attack, counter attack, good ball control in tight situations is absolutely must have qualities. AWB has none of those. He is excellent in defined smaller space, with specific role. He is an amazing blocker. But never be a DM.

 

[andersj]

Rice as a metronome type

He is not. I’ve been a fan of him for years. Made a thread about him a couple of years ago too. Would love to see him at Man Utd (not at any price). But he is not a Carrick, Scholes, Pirlo or Xabi type of player.

But he is not that different to Fabinho or Rodri/Fernandinho. If we want a player who can do a similar job to these three players, and we want a player who we feel confident can do it next season, Rice is an obvious choice. His passing is very efficient and progressive. But no, obviously not in the same league as the above mentioned or Kroos/Modric.

 

[Champ]

Okay. There is no disagreement that stats need context. It's just that you claim that the stats back up your view of Rice as a metronome type of player. I point out his passing stats seem to me to point in the opposite direction, ie that passing is actually a rather weak area of his game, compared to quite a few other players playing in the same position. I'm still waiting for you to put up something to substantiate that claim, and until you do there's not really much more to say.

"Maybe it's because stats are correlated from different places?" What sort of nonsense is that? Do you have a different figure for Declan Rice's pass completion rate because you have "correlated it from different places"?

I give up

His passing stats are very good, yet you don't seem to see that for whatever reason.

I'm fine with it, i suggest you move on as I have given several statistics, with context and comparisons to prove that his passing is of a very good quality, yet you still harbour this strange theory that he can't pass, or that it's a weak part of his game.

It's clear to me that you have your mind made up!

 

[Mark Pawelek]

Rice is good, but not outstanding. I prefer him to McFred. He's not £60m good; maybe £40m at most. I'm not even sure Rice is a better footballer than Garner. If United don't buy a DM this summer, I'd like to watch DvdB and Garner team up as a replacement pivot to McFred, at least for a few matches. Otherwise Bissouma and/or Ruben Neves are better value than Rice at half the price. I rate to odds of Rice to OT at 1 in 100 at most.

 

[Mani]

Locatelli would be nice addition to the current squad, can be played along with Fred or McTominay in the CM, he got all the attributes and won't cost bomb

 

[justsomebloke]

I give up

His passing stats are very good, yet you don't seem to see that for whatever reason.

I'm fine with it, i suggest you move on as I have given several statistics, with context and comparisons to prove that his passing is of a very good quality, yet you still harbour this strange theory that he can't pass, or that it's a weak part of his game.

It's clear to me that you have your mind made up!

Sorry, but this is just a childish combination of pique, vagueness and blowing hard. You pretend you've offered evidence and arguments where you have actually offered little else than assertions that the stats back you up, which they simply don't.

For those interested in making up their own minds, a complete overview of Rice's stats, with percentile placings for each of them, is here: Declan Rice Scouting Report | FBref.com .

Over and out from me.

 

[BFernandes]

We've already got him - Fred.

Just play him in the Makelele role in front of the defence. Great engine, great passer, good in the tackle, works hard.

Similar to a younger Kante.

 

[Tiber]

We never sign top class central midfielders - why would we break the habit of a lifetime?

 

[Wilbursaurus]

How many of you on the forum wouldn't mind AWB as a DM like the Kante sort? He's our best tackler and he's almost impossible to get past. He's got the engine as well. He's not the best passer but I think he makes up for it with his robust tackling and pace. I mean that would help solve the 'free Pogba' issue as well as give AWB a chance to play for England. We could bring in a Max Aarons to fill the RB spot for cheap. @Adnan any thoughts?

Oh my no. That's just ..... that's a doozy.

 

[Judas]

We've already got him - Fred.

Just play him in the Makelele role in front of the defence. Great engine, great passer, good in the tackle, works hard.

Similar to a younger Kante.

is this post from before we signed Fred and just been on a big delay?

 

[croadyman]

He is not. I’ve been a fan of him for years. Made a thread about him a couple of years ago too. Would love to see him at Man Utd (not at any price). But he is not a Carrick, Scholes, Pirlo or Xabi type of player.

But he is not that different to Fabinho or Rodri/Fernandinho. If we want a player who can do a similar job to these three players, and we want a player who we feel confident can do it next season, Rice is an obvious choice. His passing is very efficient and progressive. But no, obviously not in the same league as the above mentioned or Kroos/Modric.

Yeah it does feel like we are looking for a DM rather than a tempo controlling CM, personally I think we could do with both but there is a chance that Donny could be that given the opportunity alongside a proper ball winner

 

[Lash]

I give up

His passing stats are very good, yet you don't seem to see that for whatever reason.

I'm fine with it, i suggest you move on as I have given several statistics, with context and comparisons to prove that his passing is of a very good quality, yet you still harbour this strange theory that he can't pass, or that it's a weak part of his game.

It's clear to me that you have your mind made up!

I don't think that's what's happening at all.

He clearly isn't as good at passing as Fred and Scott as shown here in black and white and he's not as progressive.

https://fbref.com/tiny/zOlli

The thing he is actually good at, it appears is dribbling, but that's not what you're talking about.

Edit: By the way, put anyone you like in there to compare him to, as you can change the comparison, he doesn't come out very well in the passing dept.

 

[jderbyshire]

We've already got him - Fred.

Just play him in the Makelele role in front of the defence. Great engine, great passer, good in the tackle, works hard.

Similar to a younger Kante.

Haha good one.

 

[croadyman]

We never sign top class central midfielders - why would we break the habit of a lifetime?

Yeah it has been a long time and the lack of links to any suggests the club see very little issue there for some daft reason

 

[Sea-Cow]

We've already got him - Fred.

Just play him in the Makelele role in front of the defence. Great engine, great passer, good in the tackle, works hard.

Similar to a younger Kante.

I agree with you; he is indeed similar to a younger Kante in that they are both professional footballers.

 

[Champ]

Sorry, but this is just a childish combination of pique, vagueness and blowing hard. You pretend you've offered evidence and arguments where you have actually offered little else than assertions that the stats back you up, which they simply don't.

For those interested in making up their own minds, a complete overview of Rice's stats, with percentile placings for each of them, is here: Declan Rice Scouting Report | FBref.com .

Over and out from me.

I have given you stats as evidence.

I have used the comparison tool on Squwaka, which is powered via Opta stats, feel free to do the same. Many premiership clubs also use Opta data.

Please don't try and belittle me, I am merely trying to have a discussion, as I have said previously, you have already made your mind up on this so its pointless carrying on.

 

[Champ]

I don't think that's what's happening at all.

He clearly isn't as good at passing as Fred and Scott as shown here in black and white and he's not as progressive.

https://fbref.com/tiny/zOlli

The thing he is actually good at, it appears is dribbling, but that's not what you're talking about.

Edit: By the way, put anyone you like in there to compare him to, as you can change the comparison, he doesn't come out very well in the passing dept.

I use Squawka, they get their data via Opta stats, in comparisons with Fred and McT Rice comes out better than or even to McT in most cases, yet behind Fred in most cases. I have given examples in a previous post, but Rice's passing is defintely one of his strong points.

 

[Lash]

I use Squawka, they get their data via Opta stats, in comparisons with Fred and McT Rice comes out better than or even to McT in most cases, yet behind Fred in most cases. I have given examples in a previous post, but Rice's passing is defintely one of his strong points.

OK, just went on there myself.

I don't get how you can say that, when it's demonstrably not by your own stats. Even using your Opta stats, sure not to McT, but not by a great much and you even said in one of your posts they don't play the same position. He also does a lot less of it that the players we're comparing to.

Hjoberg for example on Opta, is comfortably better than him, in all areas as well as Fred. I would say his passing is good, but not amazing - same with Fred, so why is it a plus for Rice?