Potential Matic Replacements

SadlerMUFC said:
OMG you are stubborn. Up and down the wing is not the job of a right sided midfielder in a 4-3-3. It is the job of a right sided midfielder (or winger) in a 4-4-2. You are so obsessed with being right you are now nitpicking on the use of the word "winger"...
Click to expand...
That's what started the discussion because there's a difference in playing RW and RM.
 
Devil may care said:
I remember a lot of us wanted him after Euro 12 (I think that was the tournemant) He'd have been a good Scholes replacement. These days we seem to be aiming long term. I know you feel Carmavigna is more likey to go to Real but with their history with young players and compared to the young emphasis our team has, I just wonder if he can be eticed as unlike Bellillingham game time can't be his primary concern if he goes to Real.





I get where you guys are coming from, if push comes to shove for balance we do need a player that can shield the back 4 as their main skill, but I guess I'm saying I'm greedy, I want that Carrick/Alonso/Fernandino style holder who is also quality on the ball, I really think Bruno Guimaraes fits the all round bill from what I've seen.
Click to expand...
An all rounder like that would be ideal if we can get him. However if we fail then Rice wouldn't be a bad shout to play the Makalele role to shore up things behind Pogba and Bruno.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/match/301604--man-united-vs-chelsea/
@Adnan
UEFA themselves reported his positon as RW with Ronaldo LW. Look at the top left of the page (LW position of the page or in your book LCM of the page) and you'll see.
Click to expand...
Adnan said:
That's what started the discussion because there's a difference in playing RW and RM.
Click to expand...
Can you guys keep this on the topic of Matic replacements please? Almost two pages of talk about whether Hargreaves played RW or RCM in one game is a bit boring and not relevant.
 
Irish_Red said:
Can you guys keep this on the topic of Matic replacements please? Almost two pages of talk about whether Hargreaves played RW or RCM in one game is a bit boring and not relevant.
Click to expand...
Firstly why are you picking me out for this when others have posted more about this discussion point? Seems odd.

With all due respect if you look at how many posts I've made about this topic Matic replacements and the level of detail I'm willing to go to I think 3 brief posts to emphasise a point of clarity in support of another poster with the intention of ending the discussion to get it back onto topic isn't exactly criminal nor worth trying to pick me up on.

If a mod wants to intervene and ask I remove 3 off topic posts, then so be it, but far more happens on other threads without comment.

If you want to be pedantic what you have posted is equally off topic.

Out of interest who would you replace Matic with and why?
 
Devil may care said:
I remember a lot of us wanted him after Euro 12 (I think that was the tournemant) He'd have been a good Scholes replacement. These days we seem to be aiming long term. I know you feel Carmavigna is more likey to go to Real but with their history with young players and compared to the young emphasis our team has, I just wonder if he can be eticed as unlike Bellillingham game time can't be his primary concern if he goes to Real.





I get where you guys are coming from, if push comes to shove for balance we do need a player that can shield the back 4 as their main skill, but I guess I'm saying I'm greedy, I want that Carrick/Alonso/Fernandino style holder who is also quality on the ball, I really think Bruno Guimaraes fits the all round bill from what I've seen.
Click to expand...
I haven't seen much, if any, of Guimaraes this season. What type of player is he?

I definitely think that whatever replacement we go for has to be in the mould of a defensively minded playmaker. I reckon Phillips from Leeds would be perfect for the role but cant see Leeds selling him after they get promoted.
 
Adnan said:
That's what started the discussion because there's a difference in playing RW and RM.
Click to expand...

No, the discussion started with you saying he played on the right side of a midfield 3 and me saying he started on the right side of a midfield 4. You have since moved the goal posts and started to nitpick over the use of the word winger. Whether you want to call him a winger or a midfielder, he started on the right side of a 4-4-2. This is a fact
 
SadlerMUFC said:
No, the discussion started with you saying he played on the right side of a midfield 3 and me saying he started on the right side of a midfield 4. You have since moved the goal posts and started to nitpick over the use of the word winger. Whether you want to call him a winger or a midfielder, he started on the right side of a 4-4-2. This is a fact
Click to expand...
He played as a RCM and not a winger.

@Irish_Red my apologies mate.
 
Adnan said:
He played as a RCM and not a winger.

@Irish_Red my apologies mate.
Click to expand...

I quoted Hargraeves himself talking about his position in the game, showed his video highlights of the game, and showed full highlights of the game. If you still insist that he played on the right side of a midfield 3 you either know nothing about football, or your ego is so big that you are incapable of admitting when you are wrong...
 
SadlerMUFC said:
I quoted Hargraeves himself talking about his position in the game, showed his video highlights of the game, and showed full highlights of the game. If you still insist that he played on the right side of a midfield 3 you either know nothing about football, or your ego is so big that you are incapable of admitting when you are wrong...
Click to expand...
You quoted Hargreaves saying he played on the right which I agree with. Pogba played on the left at Juventus and it didn't make him a winger.
 
SadlerMUFC said:
No, the discussion started with you saying he played on the right side of a midfield 3 and me saying he started on the right side of a midfield 4. You have since moved the goal posts and started to nitpick over the use of the word winger. Whether you want to call him a winger or a midfielder, he started on the right side of a 4-4-2. This is a fact
Click to expand...

If you are going by the formation in TV yes, he was shown as right mid but in reality it was more of a RCM - a third midfielder to make it a 3 man midfield.
 
Adnan said:
You quoted Hargreaves saying he played on the right which I agree with. Pogba played on the left at Juventus and it didn't make him a winger.
Click to expand...

Holy FECK!!! Completely different. Pogba did play on the left side at Juve in either a 3 or 4-4-2 diamond. He was indeed a LCM. Hargraves played on the right of a 4-4-2 in the Champions League finals vs Chelsea (not a diamond). NOT on the right of a 4-3-3. Did you even watch the video I posted which showed all of Hargraeves highlights? If he was playing on the right side of a 3 than he was waaaaay out of position for pretty much the entire game. My god you are stubborn :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
I think that the route of the confusion here is that Hargreaves was playing a right-sided role in a 4-4-2/4-3-3 hybrid. In a sense, you are all correct.

OoDIX0S.jpg


Now, let's move on and get back to arguing over which potential midfield target best suits our chosen hypothetical 2020/21 season lineup. Much more productive!
 
SadlerMUFC said:
Holy FECK!!! Completely different. Pogba did play on the left side at Juve in either a 3 or 4-4-2 diamond. He was indeed a LCM. Hargraves played on the right of a 4-4-2 in the Champions League finals vs Chelsea (not a diamond). NOT on the right of a 4-3-3. Did you even watch the video I posted which showed all of Hargraeves highlights? If he was playing on the right side of a 3 than he was waaaaay out of position for pretty much the entire game. My god you are stubborn :lol: :lol: :lol:
Click to expand...
This is the problem you get sucked into what the TV shows.

Playing 4-4-2 made no sense when Ronaldo as you say played as a left winger ahead of Evra who was our best attacking fullback. Evra in such a scenario would've got over run if Ronaldo didn't track back and why ask the best attacker in the world to track back in a 4-4-2 it made no sense. Also Hargreaves being deployed on the wing made no sense because behind him was Wes Brown who was naturally a CB and was stronger in defence than attack.

The team was setup in a 4-3-3 and Hargreaves and Ronaldo both played as RCM and LWF respectively which gave the front three freedom to attack and the team defensive balance.
 
AneRu said:
An all rounder like that would be ideal if we can get him. However if we fail then Rice wouldn't be a bad shout to play the Makalele role to shore up things behind Pogba and Bruno.
Click to expand...

To be honest if we went for a pure DM destroyer I'd opt for Ndidi over Rice, and if Leicester miss out on top 4 and keep Maddison I think he'd be obtainable.


Irish_Red said:
I haven't seen much, if any, of Guimaraes this season. What type of player is he?

I definitely think that whatever replacement we go for has to be in the mould of a defensively minded playmaker. I reckon Phillips from Leeds would be perfect for the role but cant see Leeds selling him after they get promoted.
Click to expand...

I think there's a bit of Gundogan about him and some Fernandinho, he's not huge but he's solid and has a low center of gravity which allows him to protect the ball well, along with his dribbling ability. He'sa good passer but I doubt many what class him as elite in that regard, but he's been defensively good when I've seen him, both positionally and in the tackle. I'd say he has a good balance of defensive ability and ability on the ball and he's young enough to improve in both aspects.



I haven't really seen much of Leeds this season, is Phillips a player that has come through under Bielsa?
 
.
Devil may care said:
To be honest if we went for a pure DM destroyer I'd opt for Ndidi over Rice, and if Leicester miss out on top 4 and keep Maddison I think he'd be obtainable.




I think there's a bit of Gundogan about him and some Fernandinho, he's not huge but he's solid and has a low center of gravity which allows him to protect the ball well, along with his dribbling ability. He'sa good passer but I doubt many what class him as elite in that regard, but he's been defensively good when I've seen him, both positionally and in the tackle. I'd say he has a good balance of defensive ability and ability on the ball and he's young enough to improve in both aspects.



I haven't really seen much of Leeds this season, is Phillips a player that has come through under Bielsa?
Click to expand...

The one that got away mate. Two Bruno's in one team would've been unfair though..
 
Adnan said:
This is the problem you get sucked into what the TV shows.

That has got to be the dumbest thing I have ever heard in my life. How dare I make my assessment from what I see on the TV. I should just make my assessment from what I see on the team sheet like you obviously have. It was a 4-4-2 with Hargraeves on the right. I even posted quotes from Hargraeves himself saying that he was on one side of the box and Ronaldo was on the other. If he was in a 3, he would say Scholes or Carrick was on the other. I also posted a video of all Hargraeves highlights, and for the majority of it, he was bombing up and down the right wing. You just may be the most stubborn person I have ever come accross in my entire life...



You cannot watch this video and say that Hargraeves played in a midfield 3. If he did, then he was so far out of position that he would have been subbed at halftime, not play the entire match. He was on the right side of a 4-4-2. FACT...
Click to expand...
 
Playing a two man midfield against Ballack, Lampard and Makalele would've been suicide. And then to have a defensive minded midfielder in Hargreaves and playing him as a winger is laughable.
 
Adnan said:
Playing a two man midfield against Ballack, Lampard and Makalele would've been suicide. And then to have a defensive minded midfielder in Hargreaves and playing him as a winger is laughable.
Click to expand...

Yet we did that formation. And we won. And Hargraeves was not a DM. He was a utility player who could play as a DM, play as a RB and play on the RW. In this match he played on the RW. This again is not my opinion. It is a fact. This is how he was used at Bayern, at United and for England. I have shown you videos of his highlights where he spent the majority of the time up and down the wing (and was ahead of Wes Brown for Ronaldo's goal despite you saying he was covering him), and I have also shown quotes from Hargraeves himself where he says that he was on one side of the box and Ronaldo was on the other. You have offered "because I said so". Case dismissed and I'm not commenting on this anymore. It is obvious that you can't admit when you are wrong, you know nothing about football or you're just a troll...
 
SadlerMUFC said:
Yet we did that formation. And we won. And Hargraeves was not a DM. He was a utility player who could play as a DM, play as a RB and play on the RW. In this match he played on the RW. This again is not my opinion. It is a fact. This is how he was used at Bayern, at United and for England. I have shown you videos of his highlights where he spent the majority of the time up and down the wing (and was ahead of Wes Brown for Ronaldo's goal despite you saying he was covering him), and I have also shown quotes from Hargraeves himself where he says that he was on one side of the box and Ronaldo was on the other. You have offered "because I said so". Case dismissed and I'm not commenting on this anymore. It is obvious that you can't admit when you are wrong, you know nothing about football or you're just a troll...
Click to expand...
Hargreaves quotes huh, utility player?

Hargreaves: A lot of teams came in for me, pretty much everyone,” Hargreaves told BT Sport. “I was only ever leaving Bayern Munich for Man United and I remember Sir Alex said to me, ‘One of the reasons I signed you, is to help us win the Champions League, I think you can help us do that.’

https://www.planetfootball.com/nost...n-utds-cursed-yet-brilliant-midfield-maestro/
 
Devil may care said:
Heh! :D I think he's still gettable, Lyon are a selling club and with no CL next season we could get something done.
Click to expand...
Would be a great signing and I championed the cause when he was available for €20m reportedly. Very good player.
 
Adnan said:
Hargreaves quotes huh, utility player?

Hargreaves: A lot of teams came in for me, pretty much everyone,” Hargreaves told BT Sport. “I was only ever leaving Bayern Munich for Man United and I remember Sir Alex said to me, ‘One of the reasons I signed you, is to help us win the Champions League, I think you can help us do that.’

https://www.planetfootball.com/nost...n-utds-cursed-yet-brilliant-midfield-maestro/
Click to expand...

So I post quotes of Hargraeves saying he was playing right wing and post videos of him playing on the right wing, and your comeback to prove otherwise (besides saying "because I said so") is to post an article where he is quoted as saying he came here to win the Champions League. Nothing about the game itself. You have nothing and you know it, but in your head as long as you have "the last word" you win and that's all you were doing here. That is troll mentality. Unbelievable... :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
SadlerMUFC said:
So I post quotes of Hargraeves saying he was playing right wing and post videos of him playing on the right wing, and your comeback to prove otherwise (besides saying "because I said so") is to post an article where he is quoted as saying he came here to win the Champions League. Nothing about the game itself. You have nothing and you know it, but in your head as long as you have "the last word" you win and that's all you were doing here. That is troll mentality. Unbelievable... :lol: :lol: :lol:
Click to expand...
The quotes I posted destroy your argument that he was a utility player and instead confirm that he was seen as a key piece in winning the Champions League by Fergie himself.

I've also demonstrated that we played a 4-3-3 because playing with a 2 man midfield against Chelsea's 3 man midfield would've been lunacy. You've also gone on claiming to make facts like Rafa Benitez in his Liverpool days, but all you've done is made assumptions.

Now you can come in here and have the last word.
 
Infra-red said:
I think that the route of the confusion here is that Hargreaves was playing a right-sided role in a 4-4-2/4-3-3 hybrid. In a sense, you are all correct.

OoDIX0S.jpg


Now, let's move on and get back to arguing over which potential midfield target best suits our chosen hypothetical 2020/21 season lineup. Much more productive!
Click to expand...

I see what you're saying and appreciate what you're doing, but all this means is that Ronaldo is more offensive than Hargraeves. Doesn't change the fact that he was playing on the right wing. He was basically playing in the same role that Park played in. It's not a centre midfield role. It's a right wing role where you work hard up and down the flanks. But I do appreciate you trying to settle this in the most diplomatic way possible and I don't blame you. It must be annoying seeing us go back and forth on this and I won't comment on it again...
 
andersj said:
Probably. But there so many names thrown out here, so why not him?
Click to expand...
Well I never considered him an option because he’ll stay in the Italian league :lol:

Funnily enough he’s one of the DMs I admired last season in Serie A then Tonali came along. My understanding (and I haven’t watched him since last season) is he’s split between DM and CM?

If we want to get into the discussion would he be a good option yeah I think so. I mean he combines a lot of the qualities we’d like but honestly I think Koopmeiners is a much better version of Locatelli due to increased versatility and IMO better passing ability. Locatelli will eventually end up at a bigger club again maybe Juve down the line depending on Tonali.
 
@SadlerMUFC

I don't know what's the issue here but just want to refer to you called Hargreaves as utility. I won't say he's an utility, he's clearly pure a DM player since that's where he was being played under Sir Alex. However, his assets allowed him to play different position like right back in semi final CL and defensive right winger in final CL. Utility is more like O'Shea or even Silvestre & Fortune because you just don't know what is their best position.
 
SadlerMUFC said:
SOrry....one more than i'm done

My fecking god you are impossible. I don't care what you say about it "being lunacy". It is in fact what we played. I have shown video highlights of Hargraeves during that game. He is bombing up and down the wing for most of the match. If that is how you think a centre midfielder plays than you are a bigger fecking idiot than I thought. Just admit you are wrong. Not man enough? I quoted Hargraeves himself saying he was playing on the right wing. Still not enough for you? So the video shows him playing as a right winger in a 4-4-2, he said he played on the right wing, but because you look at the line up you assume it's a midfield 3. Never mind what the proof of watching the game says. You are making your mind up based on the line up on paper?? And then because SAF said he brought him here to win the Champions League that is some how proof that he played in a midfield 3 that day? You are either a complete fecking idiot or a troll. I'm starting to think it's both and I'm done with your trolling. Reply all you want. You are wrong and you know it...

Click to expand...


I’ve had a few discussions like these with Adnan. He will never admit that he is wrong. Not to himself. Not to you. I’m not even sure he is able to understand it.
 
andersj said:
I’ve had a few discussions like these with Adnan. He will never admit that he is wrong. Not to himself. Not to you. I’m not even sure he is able to understand it.
Click to expand...

Same here. I had it before, worst thing is that he tends to keep going on and on. It's like arguing with Roy Keane.
 
andersj said:
I’ve had a few discussions like these with Adnan. He will never admit that he is wrong. Not to himself. Not to you. I’m not even sure he is able to understand it.
Click to expand...
UNITED ACADEMY said:
Same here. I had it before, worst thing is that he tends to keep going on and on. It's like arguing with Roy Keane.
Click to expand...
:lol: Never mud wrestle a pig. You’ll both get dirty but the pig will enjoy it.
 
Trophy Room said:
SO Matic replacement then? :D
Click to expand...
@Adnan is a good shout. Solid in defence will not back down and constantly shifting the goal posts so no one can score past him.

Pretty mobile too operated in different threads. Great passer too. Honestly haven’t seen anyone try to pass opinion off as fact better than him!

All jokes aside:

Koopmeiners
Rice
Partey
Zakaria

All good options IMO
 
BenitoSTARR said:
@Adnan is a good shout. Solid in defence will not back down and constantly shifting the goal posts so no one can score past him.

Pretty mobile too operated in different threads. Great passer too. Honestly haven’t seen anyone try to pass opinion off as fact better than him!

All jokes aside:

Koopmeiners
Rice
Partey
Zakaria

All good options IMO
Click to expand...
Bravo..
 
You must log in or register to reply here.