Potential Matic Replacements

Josep Dowling said:
So many people keep mentioning Kalvin Phillips.

He was born in Leeds, him and his family are Leeds United fans.

He’s 24 and still never played at the highest level.

I really don’t understand why so many people want to sign him.
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If he replicates his game in the premier league, potentially he is a great all rounded midfielder, as his tackling, long passing, energy are all very good.

We could lineup something like this too with him as a lone dm since Ole prefers Pogba as a 8 rather than a 10.

--------------------------------New no 10
Pogba

-------------Kalvin Phillips
 
sherrinford said:
A no.8, regardless of whether it’s a box to box player or someone who looks to get their foot on the ball a bit. Would probably prefer the later. Not a true DM, or any kind of natural holding player.
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God no.

Pogba is an 8 and I don’t like him and Fred together. Fred needs a true DM and judging by our stats this season, so do we.
 
Ander herrera the warrior said:
If he replicates his game in the premier league, potentially he is a great all rounded midfielder, as his tackling, long passing, energy are all very good.

We could lineup something like this too with him as a lone dm since Ole prefers Pogba as a 8 rather than a 10.

--------------------------------New no 10
Pogba

-------------Kalvin Phillips
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My first point on him stands though. I’m sure we wouldn’t be the only club in for him. Given his background I can’t see it being a dead cert he would want to sign for us. Especially if Leeds are promoted.
 
Uncomfortable truth - we are no longer competitive for attracting top established talent (the likes of Koulibaly) or top young talent (the likes of De Ligt, Sancho or even Haaland apparently). Not being in Champions League and being in the middle of rebuild (high risk), as well as having unproven manager is causing this and just "being the biggest club" is not fooling anybody, anymore.

We are probably going to sign more people like AWB and Dan James and build our team on their shoulders. Not ideal, ideally you would want to pair youngsters with experience, but it is what it is.
 
Camavinga woiuld be nice, but unlikely/risky for a variety of reasons. Interested to see more of Berge. He wouldn't cost a great deal, but it's a huge step up from Genk.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
God no.

Pogba is an 8 and I don’t like him and Fred together. Fred needs a true DM and judging by our stats this season, so do we.
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Pogba playing in a two man midfield is contentious for many though. And Fred is doing much better now. And the Newcastle game might be the first of the season where we have comfortably controlled possession - and the game in general - with a lead in the second half going into the later stages, with the two of them in midfield together.

Fred has been at his best anchoring, as the deepest midfielder. If he is paired with another sitting midfield player, and the onus is on him to join in a little more, then I think he is less comfortable and less able. So I would rather see him paired with a Fletcher or Scholes than a Carrick or Hargreaves. Matic I would group with Carrick and Hargreaves.
 
I think we ll end up with triggering Matic 1 year extension....due to shortage in midfield and failure to sign anyone in January
 
NewGlory said:
https://www.espn.com/soccer/soccer-...und-beat-manchester-united-to-haaland-signing

This is a clear example of how inapt our recruitment is these days
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What the actual feck? Since when is it considered a failure to not allow a 19 yo to dictate terms of a future transfers? We are not going to do it, ever.

Fair play to Raiola! He really knows how to make money for him and his players. Good personal choice of Haaland also, but lets not act like this is not just a step towards a giant club in the future.
 
Svartzonker said:
What the actual feck? Since when is it considered a failure to not allow a 19 yo to dictate terms of a future transfers? We are not going to do it, ever.

Fair play to Raiola! He really knows how to make money for him and his players. Good personal choice of Haaland also, but lets not act like this is not just a step towards a giant club in the future.
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Spot on, great post!
 
Svartzonker said:
What the actual feck? Since when is it considered a failure to not allow a 19 yo to dictate terms of a future transfers? We are not going to do it, ever.

Fair play to Raiola! He really knows how to make money for him and his players. Good personal choice of Haaland also, but lets not act like this is not just a step towards a giant club in the future.
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100% with this!
 
Svartzonker said:
What the actual feck? Since when is it considered a failure to not allow a 19 yo to dictate terms of a future transfers? We are not going to do it, ever.

Fair play to Raiola! He really knows how to make money for him and his players. Good personal choice of Haaland also, but lets not act like this is not just a step towards a giant club in the future.
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Calm down. Successful negotiation doesn't mean you agree to what they want, it means you get the deal done on the terms you can live with. But we haven't had Woodward do a single good negotiation, so how would you know...

The point is - Ole wanted Haaland and our negotiation team could not get it done. And Haaland is a mid-tier star. If you think that other, bigger stars like Sancho will be nicer to us and it will be easier to close them - then think again
 
NewGlory said:
Calm down. Successful negotiation doesn't mean you agree to what they want, it means you get the deal done on the terms you can live with. But we haven't had Woodward do a single good negotiation, so how would you know...

The point is - Ole wanted Haaland and our negotiation team could not get it done. And Haaland is a mid-tier star. If you think that other, bigger stars like Sancho will be nicer to us and it will be easier to close them - then think again
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Nar, Ole said immediately that Haaland knows what he wants to do and what he is going to do. United and others then just used by Raiola to milk as much as possible out of Dortmund.

If Haaland really wanted United he’d have made sure the deal was done, obvious he chose Dortmund and let’s be honest here, it’s a smart move for him.
 
NewGlory said:
Calm down. Successful negotiation doesn't mean you agree to what they want, it means you get the deal done on the terms you can live with. But we haven't had Woodward do a single good negotiation, so how would you know...

The point is - Ole wanted Haaland and our negotiation team could not get it done. And Haaland is a mid-tier star. If you think that other, bigger stars like Sancho will be nicer to us and it will be easier to close them - then think again
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So you would have rather us signed him, agreed to this release clause...then what? Hypothetically he has a few great seasons banging goals in left right and centre and then Club X comes in with the (pulling a number out of thin air) £60m, way under his then-market value and we’re left looking like a bunch of mugs.
 
Hang on @NewGlory can’t surely be suggesting that United should have agreed to the 50€ release clause?

It’s a wonderful deal for Dortmund, Raiol, the player, and the player’s future. The same deal for Juve or United would have been an absolute embarrassment which is no doubt why Juve & United didn’t entertain it.

Haaland has taken the smartest deal in every aspect for his career right now and for the future.

Any excuse for some posters to take a swipe at the club though I guess.
 
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Our problem in midfield is creativity so signing a DM like Ndidi won't help us break down those smaller sides. A deep lying playmaker is what we need.

There aren't many of those right now that could be available. The best one we could get is Kalvin Phillips. Doubt he would be available in January and I doubt he might want to come to us given he's a Leeds fan.

If that's the case then I don't mind playing Pogba as the deep lying playmaker In a pivot with Fred. Then we'd have to switch target from a DM to an AM
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Hang on @NewGlory can’t surely be suggesting that United should have agreed to the 50€ release clause?

It’s a wonderful deal for Dortmund, Raiol, the player, and the player’s future. The same deal for Juve or United would have been an absolute embarrassment which is no doubt why Juve & United didn’t entertain it.

Haaland has taken the smartest deal in every aspect for his career right now and for the future.

Any excuse for some posters to take a swipe at the club though I guess.
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You actually answered yourself earlier:
United and others then just used by Raiola to milk as much as possible out of Dortmund.
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The ridiculous deal was not a necessity. They were simply unable to close him. And he is kinda nobody - a very unproven potential. If we can't excite and close the likes of him, we can forget the kinds of Sancho.
 
Jericholyte2 said:
So you would have rather us signed him, agreed to this release clause...then what? Hypothetically he has a few great seasons banging goals in left right and centre and then Club X comes in with the (pulling a number out of thin air) £60m, way under his then-market value and we’re left looking like a bunch of mugs.
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I said "Successful negotiation doesn't mean you agree to what they want, it means you get the deal done on the terms you can live with."

And from that you took that I was suggesting we should have agreed to his ridiculous terms (which I am sure they never expected to be met)?

Wow.
 
jamesjimmybyrondean said:
Our problem in midfield is creativity so signing a DM like Ndidi won't help us break down those smaller sides. A deep lying playmaker is what we need.

There aren't many of those right now that could be available. The best one we could get is Kalvin Phillips. Doubt he would be available in January and I doubt he might want to come to us given he's a Leeds fan.

If that's the case then I don't mind playing Pogba as the deep lying playmaker In a pivot with Fred. Then we'd have to switch target from a DM to an AM
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But it will help us win the ball quicker so we can feed our key players like Pogba, as Kante did.
 
NewGlory said:
I said "Successful negotiation doesn't mean you agree to what they want, it means you get the deal done on the terms you can live with."

And from that you took that I was suggesting we should have agreed to his ridiculous terms (which I am sure they never expected to be met)?

Wow.
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You message is that we needed to be successful. Other clubs were willing to put this clause in, we weren’t. We therefore couldn’t successfully negotiate with them.

But don’t worry, keep telling yourself that not bending to the whims of an agent labels us inept.
 
NewGlory said:
You actually answered yourself earlier:


The ridiculous deal was not a necessity. They were simply unable to close him. And he is kinda nobody - a very unproven potential. If we can't excite and close the likes of him, we can forget the kinds of Sancho.
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You do realise that neither United nor Juve can offer a deal that good right?
Only a club like Dorrmund can offer that and he’d have been an idiot to turn it down.
 
NewGlory said:
Calm down. Successful negotiation doesn't mean you agree to what they want, it means you get the deal done on the terms you can live with. But we haven't had Woodward do a single good negotiation, so how would you know...

The point is - Ole wanted Haaland and our negotiation team could not get it done. And Haaland is a mid-tier star. If you think that other, bigger stars like Sancho will be nicer to us and it will be easier to close them - then think again
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Yes, Ole must likely wanted Haaland here but does that mean he wanted to come here? No.

Why bother with a player who demands a precentage of a future transfer for his agent and father and in addition to that a possible release clause in his contract. Getting a player who already makes plans for a future move as we want players who are commited is just silly. According to reports he wanted guaranteed game time, to be a starter. Is he a player that can demand that from a club like Manchester United? No, he is not and therefore Dortmund is a more logical destination for him. Haaland is a great prospect and I’m fairly certain he is going to have a great career and all but the day we start bending over for a 19yo from the Austrian bundesliga is the day our time as a big club is over.

Regarding Sancho he does not have to be nice to us, why would he? Just offer him the best contract compared to the other PL teams, but nothing overly silly, and if he does not want to come then he is not the right guy for us.

We need to get good players, yes, but they need to willing to come here and stay here long term. It’s not like Haaland and Sancho are the only available players out there, there will be others too. I know it’s hard to be patient given our current form, but being patient is key right now. Waiting for the right player will cost us short term, but long term it will benefit us greatly. Short term pain is going to lead to long term gain and its not like our core group of guys are in their prime years as of now. We have one of the youngest, if not the youngest, squad in the league and at times Lingard is the oldest player on the field (excluding Dave).

In a few years I’m pretty confident that Greenwood will be regarded as the better player comparing with Haaland. No need to be bitter about this one and no need to blame Woody either, it was just not the right fit for him.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
You do realise that neither United nor Juve can offer a deal that good right?
Only a club like Dorrmund can offer that and he’d have been an idiot to turn it down.
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It doesn't matter, anymore because he's gone so "what could have been" is a pure speculation, but it is clear that you yourself are very well aware - when footballers want to join a club they don't get stuck up on ridiculous terms.

He wanted to go to Dortmund, hoping for a starting positiom, and wants to use it as a launching pad for future Madrid exit or something like that. And United couldnt convince him of anything better. It wasn't about money.
 
NewGlory said:
He wanted to go to Dortmund, hoping for a starting positiom, and wants to use it as a launching pad for future Madrid exit or something like that. And United couldnt convince him of anything better. It wasn't about money.
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Madrid, United, Juve, City, Liverpool, Barca.... basically he’ll have the pick of the World with that cheap buyout clause if he rips up trees in Germany. Whoever is the best option in a few years for money, trophies etc, that’s where he goes.

It’s a fantastic move for him, and I’ve no idea how you expected United to negotiate better than that Dortmund deal, no top team could.
 
Th
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Hang on @NewGlory can’t surely be suggesting that United should have agreed to the 50€ release clause?

It’s a wonderful deal for Dortmund, Raiol, the player, and the player’s future. The same deal for Juve or United would have been an absolute embarrassment which is no doubt why Juve & United didn’t entertain it.

Haaland has taken the smartest deal in every aspect for his career right now and for the future.

Any excuse for some posters to take a swipe at the club though I guess.
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I generally agree with this but if it’s true the clause doesn’t kick in for two seasons then we could have gambled on getting back into the CL and renegotiated his deal if he worked out. If he didn’t work out for €20m then the theoretical £50-60m clause wouldn’t matter anyway.
 
sparx99 said:
I generally agree with this but if it’s true the clause doesn’t kick in for two seasons then we could have gambled on getting back into the CL and renegotiated his deal if he worked out. If he didn’t work out for €20m then the theoretical £50-60m clause wouldn’t matter anyway.
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Why would he renegotiate his deal? And if he did, with that release clause he’d take us to the cleaners. So why would we gamble again?
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Why would he renegotiate his deal? And if he did, with that release clause he’d take us to the cleaners. So why would we gamble again?
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Because if he bangs in 30 league goals as a 20yr old he’ll want more money. Its not that rare for players to negotiate a new deal 2-3yrs into a 5yr contract particularly young players.

The negotiation could have been we’ll bump up your wages if you drop the clause. Anyway he’s moved now and it’s so the hypothetical doesn’t matter anymore.

Didn’t Juventus agree to a release clause for De Ligt? That was the rumour at the time.
 
sparx99 said:
Because if he bangs in 30 league goals as a 20yr old he’ll want more money. Its not that rare for players to negotiate a new deal 2-3yrs into a 5yr contract particularly young players.

The negotiation could have been we’ll bump up your wages if you drop the clause. Anyway he’s moved now and it’s so the hypothetical doesn’t matter anymore.

Didn’t Juventus agree to a release clause for De Ligt? That was the rumour at the time.
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Juve did, at 150m.

Big difference there.

Oh, and if he banged in 30 league goals here and had a 50m€ release, he’d be demanding Sanchez money to resign man.

Can you imagine the wage City would offer him to take our 30 goal striker off us for 50m€ :lol:
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Juve did, at 150m.

Big difference there.
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It just seems to me that there was little risk with what is a low fee by today’s standards.

We sign him for €20m and he is awesome. Best case he improves us and wants to stays and negotiates a new deal.

Worst case he performs individually and we are still not good enough around him and Barca or Real can sign him for £50-60m. Oh well, we got a good player for a couple years and make £40m profit.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
No, worst case is he smashes it here and after 2 years city take him off our hands for 50m€.
The shame :lol:
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I guess but Pogba and De Gea has shown that once a top player is playing for us other clubs struggle to compete on wages. The low fee makes it a possibility but City have been really strict at keeping their star players aligned. De Bruyne, Sterling and Aguero are paid fairy similarly.

Also, as I said if he smashed it for us then the it could mean we are competing again and and not worth leaving.

Either way it seems these wonderkids are making demands now which seem unreasonable but it seems to be that to get a player you have to give in.

Barca has to pay top money to Frenkie De Jong, Atletico paid a crazy fee for Joao Felix, PSG have bent over backwards to accommodate Mbappe and Juve did it with De Ligt.
 
sparx99 said:
De Bruyne, Sterling and Aguero are paid fairy similarly.
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Footy leaks showed us they pretty much certainly are not. There’s a reason Real & Barca are never in for City players.

Anyway, United are no feeder club and are never going to agree to such a shit deal that would put us in the shittest position in 2 years so let’s shut up about it now.
 
@NewGlory

According to reports he wanted assurances that he would be a starter, a fairly low release clause, percentage of future transfer for his dad/Raiola.

What, to you, would equate to 'get the deal done on the terms you can live with'? Keeping in mind that it shouldn't be about the money, as you pointed out
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
I think last night showed this post up a little and also showed many fans how important a true DM next to Fred can be.

Hopefully we replace Matic adequately, would improve us immensely.
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Show what up? He has been on a retirement tour ever since he joined United. Why do you think he is an afterthought for Ole? One game is not going to make up for his retirement tour.
 
Varun1 said:
@NewGlory

According to reports he wanted assurances that he would be a starter, a fairly low release clause, percentage of future transfer for his dad/Raiola.

What, to you, would equate to 'get the deal done on the terms you can live with'? Keeping in mind that it shouldn't be about the money, as you pointed out
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You are missing my point. I don't really care about Haaland that much (esp. in a Matic topic). The point is - Haaland is virtual nobody. No one had heard his name 6 months ago. He also played for Ole, so that should have helped. And his choice is not brilliant, it's as much of a gamble as any other. There's no guarantee that he will be successful at Dortmund and/or that big clubs will want to fight for him after that. We are not talking about future Messi here or Neymar. He's a Salzburg youngster who has not proven anything yet. Remember De Ligt? Was much more of a sure thing than Haaland and he's struggling at Juventus. In the big scheme of things, I am not sure Haaland is a more sure thing than Greenwood. I would rather have Greenwood than him. Haaland is just a different kind of striker that we wanted. That is all. Let's not make him sound like some kind of phenomenal player.

The real concern is – if we can't convince the likes of Haaland, how can we attract much better prospects? Why would they have less appetite and be nicer to United than a "maybe" Haaland? People here are up in arms about us signing Sancho. Do you think a club that cannot convince Haaland can attract Sancho?

And here's the actual question relevant to this thread, and why Haaland was brought up. We need a midfielder. The likes of Soumare look great. But if we can't convince Haaland, how can we convince Soumare? And does that change the approach we should have to recruitment entirely. Because we do have to be realistic and not chase targets that are unattainable. United did chase Haaland. Ole flew to them to talk to him, head coaches don't just fly to convince all recruits – it was not a good look on us to have OIe get turned down and Haaland proceed with Dortmund.
 
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