Potential Matic Replacements

gr3yham3 said:
If the rumours are true and that we are looking to get someone in like Koulibaly, then I rather Axel gets his chances to be our first choice DM. He has all the attributes to be a top-class one at that too. TFM does not have the required composure to be in midfield, while Garner still needs more game time playing against men rather than boys in the U18s and U23s, though I do have high hopes for him. But I see people asking for energy and mobility, and I think Axel offers that in spades. There have been plenty of top players who have converted positions at a young age and been great successes.

Of course when the need calls for it, Axel can still be called in to play as a CB, but I don't see why we should spend a bomb to get energy, mobility and composure in the middle of the park on the likes of Rice etc. when we I feel we have the solution already present in the team.
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Axel has a better chance of being our first choice CB rather than a DM, he's been playing as a CB on loan at Villa this season and has done very well, he's one of the first names on the team sheet.

Jose played him as DM twice from what I can remember and he didn't look great. We need to play people in their correct position otherwise we'll end up creating more problems for ourselves.
 
gr3yham3 said:
Why not Axel then? I just saw the pre-match thread and read that Jose played him in midfield for that last game of the 16/17 season?

Edit: http://thepeoplesperson.com/2017/05...ar-performance-against-crystal-palace-181993/
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I've thought about this but Axels passing isn't good enough. Hes a good defender and can make simple passes out from the back very much like Smalling but when asked to do it from the DM position you need someone a little more suited to the role.

If were trying to keep possession the DM will be having a lot of touches, sometimes under pressure.

When we play a counter attack style the DM needs to be able to break up the oppositions attacks and make cutting edge passes to our runners or even be able to bring the ball out himself. Unfortunately this is not Axel Tuenzebe. I've watched him quite a bit to have this opinion and after watching him yesterday for Villa in the Play off semi it's only reaffirmed my views. He had the ball in an advanced role 2 or 3 times and tried to ping one to the left side and it was 30ft from the nearest villa players. Another time he gave the ball straight to opposition when a simple pass to his right back was on.

Ruben Neves, Ndidi, Tielemans and Rice can do this perfectly. Any one of these players and I'd be over the moon.

Axel should 100% come back in the summer to replace Jones and/or Rojo.
 
gr3yham3 said:
Why not Axel then? I just saw the pre-match thread and read that Jose played him in midfield for that last game of the 16/17 season?

Edit: http://thepeoplesperson.com/2017/05...ar-performance-against-crystal-palace-181993/
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We've been struggling with converted wingers playing at fullback for years and trying to shoehorn number 9 players out wide

I think we'd do better to buy a specialist for the position. Someone who has performed well in that role with good technique and passing ability

Plus Tuanzebe has impressed for a season at CB.... youd think that's his future
 
Suvvernmanc said:
I've thought about this but Axels passing isn't good enough. Hes a good defender and can make simple passes out from the back very much like Smalling but when asked to do it from the DM position you need someone a little more suited to the role.

If were trying to keep possession the DM will be having a lot of touches, sometimes under pressure.

When we play a counter attack style the DM needs to be able to break up the oppositions attacks and make cutting edge passes to our runners or even be able to bring the ball out himself. Unfortunately this is not Axel Tuenzebe. I've watched him quite a bit to have this opinion and after watching him yesterday for Villa in the Play off semi it's only reaffirmed my views. He had the ball in an advanced role 2 or 3 times and tried to ping one to the left side and it was 30ft from the nearest villa players. Another time he gave the ball straight to opposition when a simple pass to his right back was on.

Ruben Neves, Ndidi, Teilemans and Rice can do this perfectly. Any one of these players and I'd be over the moon.

Axel should 100% come back in the summer to replace Jones and/or Rojo.
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Ndidi and Rice aren't the most expansive passers I thought? Axel seems calm enough for me under pressure - he had 62 passes with 100% accuracy in that Palace game when he played in midfield 2 years ago. I agree that most of those passes were sideways, but that's what I would want my mobile DM to do most of the time - keep it simple and pass it on to maybe Pogba or someone like Tielemans/Fernandes who are able to ping it forward quickly. We are also not converting past-it players to play in a new position as well. If the likes of Bale, Ronaldo and Matic could make the transition to a new position from a young age successfully, I think Axel might be able to do so as well.

Of course it would be great if we can get player like Kante in that position, but if you were to tell me to spend 60m on Rice when I feel we have other positions that need more urgent reinforcement, I rather stick with Matic and Axel as mentioned as our options.
 
Bestietom said:
Barella, Pelegrini, Ndombele,. Probably someone we have not heard of yet.
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Are they DMs though? They seem to be more of the Herrera replacement?

Whoever it is, I just hope that we see change and more positive, expansive football for 90 minutes, not 30 minutes, per match next season.
 
gr3yham3 said:
Are they DMs though? They seem to be more of the Herrera replacement?

Whoever it is, I just hope that we see change and more positive, expansive football for 90 minutes, not 30 minutes, per match next season.
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I would sooner 2 box to box midfielders than a DM who just sits in front of the back 4 and never moves past the half way line. We have to move away from this.
 
gr3yham3 said:
Ndidi and Rice aren't the most expansive passers I thought? Axel seems calm enough for me under pressure - he had 62 passes with 100% accuracy in that Palace game when he played in midfield 2 years ago. I agree that most of those passes were sideways, but that's what I would want my mobile DM to do most of the time - keep it simple and pass it on to maybe Pogba or someone like Tielemans/Fernandes who are able to ping it forward quickly. We are also not converting past-it players to play in a new position as well. If the likes of Bale, Ronaldo and Matic could make the transition to a new position from a young age successfully, I think Axel might be able to do so as well.

Of course it would be great if we can get player like Kante in that position, but if you were to tell me to spend 60m on Rice when I feel we have other positions that need more urgent reinforcement, I rather stick with Matic and Axel as mentioned as our options.
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The funny thing is, I'd rather have kept Herrera for the #6 position. He has proven his worth there many times but has always ended up playing the box to box role in which he has flaws in his game.

Rice and Ndidi probably aren't as good as some out there (Kante, Fernandinho and Rodri) regarding passing but I think it's maybe a little harsh on Rice to say hes not a good passer, but would agree hes not the most expensive passer either. Look at Sergio Busquets and how he makes short to medium range passes where as Pirlo would ping the ball with great precision to anyone he wanted. Two top players both playing the same position but are very different in their approach.

Rice and Ndidi would be great 'defensive' midfielders and can adequately pass there way out of trouble, and would be a massive upgrade on what we have.

Neves and Tielemans can also get forward which makes them different slightly. They would be able to offer much more in going forward when counter attacking.

West ham, Wolves would 100% fleece us for Rice and Neves due to there current contract situations and Ndidi might be a little less expensive but still alot. £40-£50m I would think. But the DM position is one that is crutial for us. Matic just isn't good enough and Fred needs another season as back up.
Spending big money for a top player in DM and RW is where we will need it spent imo.

There are players available for free or cheap, at both CB and CM in Alderweireld and Rabiot and if we had any sense we would snap them up to allow the other positions to have money thrown at them.
 
Suvvernmanc said:
The funny thing is, I'd rather have kept Herrera for the #6 position. He has proven his worth there many times but has always ended up playing the box to box role in which he has flaws in his game.

Rice and Ndidi probably aren't as good as some out there (Kante, Fernandinho and Rodri) regarding passing but I think it's maybe a little harsh on Rice to say hes not a good passer, but would agree hes not the most expensive passer either. Look at Sergio Busquets and how he makes short to medium range passes where as Pirlo would ping the ball with great precision to anyone he wanted. Two top players both playing the same position but are very different in their approach.

Rice and Ndidi would be great 'defensive' midfielders and can adequately pass there way out of trouble, and would be a massive upgrade on what we have.

Neves and Tielemans can also get forward which makes them different slightly. They would be able to offer much more in going forward when counter attacking.

West ham, Wolves would 100% fleece us for Rice and Neves due to there current contract situations and Ndidi might be a little less expensive but still alot. £40-£50m I would think. But the DM position is one that is crutial for us. Matic just isn't good enough and Fred needs another season as back up.
Spending big money for a top player in DM and RW is where we will need it spent imo.

There are players available for free or cheap, at both CB and CM in Alderweireld and Rabiot and if we had any sense we would snap them up to allow the other positions to have money thrown at them.
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If we intend to play the United way, then 2 box to box midfielders would suit us better. 1 covering each side of the pitch. An understanding between midfielders goes a long way to controlling games.
 
Bestietom said:
If we intend to play the United way, then 2 box to box midfielders would suit us better. 1 covering each side of the pitch. An understanding between midfielders goes a long way to controlling games.
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Pogba doesn't have the discipline to operate in a midfield two at United, but that's if he remains here of course...
 
Suvvernmanc said:
The funny thing is, I'd rather have kept Herrera for the #6 position. He has proven his worth there many times but has always ended up playing the box to box role in which he has flaws in his game.

Rice and Ndidi probably aren't as good as some out there (Kante, Fernandinho and Rodri) regarding passing but I think it's maybe a little harsh on Rice to say hes not a good passer, but would agree hes not the most expensive passer either. Look at Sergio Busquets and how he makes short to medium range passes where as Pirlo would ping the ball with great precision to anyone he wanted. Two top players both playing the same position but are very different in their approach.

Rice and Ndidi would be great 'defensive' midfielders and can adequately pass there way out of trouble, and would be a massive upgrade on what we have.

Neves and Tielemans can also get forward which makes them different slightly. They would be able to offer much more in going forward when counter attacking.

West ham, Wolves would 100% fleece us for Rice and Neves due to there current contract situations and Ndidi might be a little less expensive but still alot. £40-£50m I would think. But the DM position is one that is crutial for us. Matic just isn't good enough and Fred needs another season as back up.
Spending big money for a top player in DM and RW is where we will need it spent imo.

There are players available for free or cheap, at both CB and CM in Alderweireld and Rabiot and if we had any sense we would snap them up to allow the other positions to have money thrown at them.
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Out of those options I would take Tielemans - has massive experience despite his age and his done well in his stint as Leicester. Busquets was the master at positioning and his passing is way underrated I feel. If you cannot pass well, there is no way you can be a first choice midfielder at Barcelona for so long. Can't find any clips of Axel's performance in midfield for us, but I remember he was pretty solid in that game and with another 2 years under his belt with Villa now, I am quite confident he can excel in that position.

Bestietom said:
I would sooner 2 box to box midfielders than a DM who just sits in front of the back 4 and never moves past the half way line. We have to move away from this.
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We can't play 2 box to box together with Pogba and not expect to get overrun in defence. Most of the top teams have one midfielder who sits back and screens the defence well - Fabinho, Fernandinho, Kante for France. Having a solid DM allows the other 2 midfielders to play their game without worrying too much about what goes on behind them.
 
gr3yham3 said:
Out of those options I would take Tielemans - has massive experience despite his age and his done well in his stint as Leicester. Busquets was the master at positioning and his passing is way underrated I feel. If you cannot pass well, there is no way you can be a first choice midfielder at Barcelona for so long. Can't find any clips of Axel's performance in midfield for us, but I remember he was pretty solid in that game and with another 2 years under his belt with Villa now, I am quite confident he can excel in that position.



We can't play 2 box to box together with Pogba and not expect to get overrun in defence. Most of the top teams have one midfielder who sits back and screens the defence well - Fabinho, Fernandinho, Kante for France. Having a solid DM allows the other 2 midfielders to play their game without worrying too much about what goes on behind them.
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It's all about Pogba can't do this or that. Play in a 2 man midfield or needs a DM for him to play further forward.

Get Rid then, and bring in someone who will suit us. He doesn't want to be here anyway, so sell for 130/140 million and bring in 2 top midfielders, who can play up and down the pitch.
 
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Will do a similar job. Much cheaper. Won't play a lot of away games.
 
Bestietom said:
It's all about Pogba can't do this or that. Play in a 2 man midfield or needs a DM for him to play further forward.

Get Rid then, and bring in someone who will suit us. He doesn't want to be here anyway, so sell for 130/140 million and bring in 2 top midfielders, who can play up and down the pitch.
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Most teams play with a midfield 3 now. Trying to go back to the old ways and play just 2 box-to-box like Scholes and Keane in their heyday will result in many unforseen results I feel, especially against top teams. And who are these 2 top midfielders who can play up and down the pitch with the required quality?
 
gr3yham3 said:
Most teams play with a midfield 3 now. Trying to go back to the old ways and play just 2 box-to-box like Scholes and Keane in their heyday will result in many unforseen results I feel, especially against top teams. And who are these 2 top midfielders who can play up and down the pitch with the required quality?
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Never said anything about just 2 midfielders. I said I would rather have 2 box to box midfielders than a DM who doesn't go past the half way line. I would be playing 3 midfielders with the other an attacking midfielder ( playmaker).
 
Bestietom said:
Never said anything about just 2 midfielders. I said I would rather have 2 box to box midfielders than a DM who doesn't go past the half way line. I would be playing 3 midfielders with the other an attacking midfielder ( playmaker).
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Hmm okay, but who are those 2 top-class box to box midfielders going to be? They are going to be able to put in a hell lot of leg work as well to cover for the lack of a DM. I can't think of any other top team now who plays with that same system too.
 
gr3yham3 said:
Hmm okay, but who are those 2 top-class box to box midfielders going to be? They are going to be able to put in a hell lot of leg work as well to cover for the lack of a DM. I can't think of any other top team now who plays with that same system too.
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Aw, mate, I'm not the manager. I suppose they are quite a few midfielders who I would like to do this Job.

But the few that come to mind are Barella, Ndombele, Pelegrini.
 
Bestietom said:
I would sooner 2 box to box midfielders than a DM who just sits in front of the back 4 and never moves past the half way line. We have to move away from this.
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Why? Virtually every team plays with a designated holding player.
 
Scholsey2004 said:
Barella is averaging 2.8 tackles per game which is decent for a midfielder. Ndidi is averaging 3.8 which is mustard. Gueye (who's 29) is averaging over 4. I think barella would be more of a Herrera replacement than the main DM. Barella's pretty small as well. DM's are usually quite tall to compete in the air. Even Barca's DM is well over 6 feet. A deep lying playmaker can be shorter of course but I don't think anyone suggesting barella will be that type of player.
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Yes, you're probably right. Only threw deep-lying playmaker in there because his agent described him as the 'next Scholes'.

Rice, Ndidi and Gueye, although not a big clubs, are good shouts. Gueye and Ndidi top the tackles and interceptions every season, so the type of players we should definately be looking at if we want a ball winner.
 
Bestietom said:
Never said anything about just 2 midfielders. I said I would rather have 2 box to box midfielders than a DM who doesn't go past the half way line. I would be playing 3 midfielders with the other an attacking midfielder ( playmaker).
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That sounds very Gerrard and lampard to me. If someone isn't designated to hold then you'll have a real organisational mess. When we played with Keane and scholes, Keane almost always held shape.
 
If we don't sign a CDM. Who would you play there next season between Mctominay and Fred?
 
Fer said:
If we don't sign a CDM. Who would you play there next season between Mctominay and Fred?
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Its a really tough call. I was very excited to see McTominay in that role against Cardiff as I thought he would excel there.

Maybe I shouldn't judge him after his first attempt playing there after being used exclusively as a box-to-box number 8, but he didn't get about and break up play as much as I thought he could. A relegated team was playing through us far too easily.

So, hell, I don't know if Scott can do that or not. I am confident, however, that Fred can not. He's shit.
 
reddevilz007 said:
Rodri or Rice
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If Rodri is possible, that would be great. Not sure if anyone in their right mind would want to leave Atletico Madrid for us, unfortunately.

Rice I am not so sure about. I think he would be better than any of our current options, but I am not sure he is that much better than Eric Dier. Against us he a few weeks ago he played like Patrick Viera, but other times I've watched them I was honestly more impressed by Mark Noble. That makes me concerned.
 
Do you think we need a destroyer like Rice/Ndidi or a deep-lying playmaker like Neves/Tielemans to replace Matic?
 
Fer said:
Do you think we need a destroyer like Rice/Ndidi or a deep-lying playmaker like Neves/Tielemans to replace Matic?
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With Herrera in the team I would've said more of a DLP, since Herrera had a lot of energy and good ball-winning abilities, now that he's gone it depends on who plays as the third midfielder next to Pogba.
If we, for example, sign Bruno Fernandes and keep Pogba, we would need a Rice type destroyer to work for them. Should we use McTominay there, a player with more creativity would be nice.
 
Spielmacher said:
With Herrera in the team I would've said more of a DLP, since Herrera had a lot of energy and good ball-winning abilities, now that he's gone it depends on who plays as the third midfielder next to Pogba.
If we, for example, sign Bruno Fernandes and keep Pogba, we would need a Rice type destroyer to work for them. Should we use McTominay there, a player with more creativity would be nice.
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If three midfield were given a specific role, I'd like to see Pogba playing as deep playing a midfielder with true DM midfielder helping out the defence and all-around midfielder on another side I think would be more like Modric type. I think DLP is his best position as he can unlock defence from deep and physically stronger to hold on balls and win Ariel battle. That's a balanced and well functioning midfield
 
deafepl said:
If three midfield were given a specific role, I'd like to see Pogba playing as deep playing a midfielder with true DM midfielder helping out the defence and all-around midfielder on another side I think would be more like Modric type. I think DLP is his best position as he can unlock defence from deep and physically stronger to hold on balls and win Ariel battle. That's a balanced midfielder.
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I think he's best when he has the freedom to run and dribble into the final third to create chaos. A good deep-lying playmaker can control the tempo of the game and orchestrate those around him, although Pogba has great passing ability I don't think he fits that mould. Also, as our most advanced midfielder his low defensive work-rate would be less of a liability.
 
Spielmacher said:
I think he's best when he has the freedom to run and dribble into the final third to create chaos. A good deep-lying playmaker can control the tempo of the game and orchestrate those around him, although Pogba has great passing ability I don't think he fits that mould. Also, as our most advanced midfielder his low defensive work-rate would be less of a liability.
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If we want him to be Lampard type, sure. Pogba can pass well but he doesn’t keep it so simple, he couldn’t care about passing through ball, breaking the line with his pass, he didn’t do that stuff much, his first intention is to dribble, holding on to ball against pressing or shot, sometime he find space to exploit with his passing, this is not exactly what I want from Pogba in advanced role, I don’t like to see him making a run to the box and he is capable of breaking through ball and though line, lofted passes regularly.

Like I said I think Pogba’s best position is DLP where he have plenty of space to make long pass as I think he is one of best long range passers in world and I’ve seen a lot of ridiculous pass he made were from deep, often more than he was in third final or near penalty box, he’s ridiculously good with his weak feet when making pass and switching to other side with his pass so easily. If we put another all-round midfielder player like Modric, B Silva type etc could help out to dominate midfield with DLP and DM, increasing creativity in their final and keep balls so well.

I’m convinced Pogba’s best position is DLP, not advanced role as he’s more of Lampard type in advanced role than creative playmakers. I’d like to see all round midfielder playmaker in that role rather than Lampard type who make a run to getting on edge of the box.
 
Christ we only just bought him 2 years ago for £40m. He was part of Jose's master plan to win us a title
 
Patrick08 said:
Things are very quiet in this area.
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Worryingly so. Either we'll stick with Matic and he'll continue to be terrible or Ole has faith in Mctominay maybe although he has spoken of him of a more box to box player.
 
RussellWilson said:
Worryingly so. Either we'll stick with Matic and he'll continue to be terrible or Ole has faith in Mctominay maybe although he has spoken of him of a more box to box player.
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Ole may has some faith on Fred.
 
Longstaff, he’s the only one we’ve really been linked to by multiple sources. Him, McTommy and Pogba would be a decent combo and all have different attributes, that could well compliment each other... just hope we get active in the market very soon, need some lovely new signings for the tour down under.
 
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