"Potential Formation of the Black Players FA" thread.

Count Orduck

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Creating this thread because the argument is derailing the RAWK thread, and I don't want to sift through that to get my daily dose of delusional scousers.

For anyone unsure what this is about:

Racism row: lawyer reveals black footballers' association talks

A leading human rights barrister has said talks over a separate black footballers' association have begun.

Peter Herbert, who chairs the Society of Black Lawyers and helped set up a Black Police Association, says the discussions are at a preliminary stage.

Herbert says the new organisation would provide a more "radical" and "vigorous" approach to combating racism.

Professional Footballers' Association chairman Clarke Carlisle warned a new group could have a divisive effect.

Herbert said players from various levels of the game, including the Premier League, were involved in discussions. The working title for the proposed body is the Black Players' Association.

He added that John Terry's abuse of Anton Ferdinand and Luis Suarez's abuse of Patrice Evra last season, along with the alleged racist abuse of England Under-21 player Danny Rose in Serbia, were a trigger for black players to come forward and attempt to form the group.

"People appear to have decided they have to do something more vigorously," Herbert said.

"What we are seeking to do for the individuals is to have that protection so they are not on their own or faced with a barrage of pressure from the media, from their clubs or the FA, but have the support of the whole community of the UK - and that includes the legal community."

But PFA chairman Carlisle said unity not separatism was needed.

"[A new body] has the potential to be divisive because when you establish a black players' union it would instantly define 'us and them' and that's something we really need to work against," the York City defender said.

"We don't need to separate the players when the whole focus and goal of anti-racism is to campaign for unity."

Carlisle also said he had spoken to Reading striker Jason Roberts about the issue after more than 30 players refused to wear T-shirts supporting the Kick It Out anti-racism campaign at the weekend following Roberts's remarks that some black players were unhappy with the organisation's progress.

However, Roberts said he was not part of the talks on a breakaway group, tweeting: "I can confirm that I have not been involved in any talks over a separate black players' union."

Another player who opted not to wear the T-shirt was Manchester United defender Rio Ferdinand - but Herbert refused to name any players involved.

"They have not come forward lightly," he said. "We are very aware it is not an easy task for anybody.

"At the moment we cannot say names but I think you will be well aware that [Ferdinand] is a person [who] has taken a stance."

Football Association chairman David Bernstein urged caution and said a breakaway organisation would not be the best way to deal with racism in the game.

"Fragmentation isn't in anyone's interest. Great passions are involved here. I hope sense prevails and people can work together," said Bernstein.

He also confirmed sanctions for players found guilty of racist abuse would be re-examined in light of the Terry case.

"It's on the agenda to look at it again. The FA received a certain, probably limited degree of criticism for its processes in the Terry thing. We will look at that.

"I think the tariffs will need looking at but, given the existing scenarios and given other punishments elsewhere, actually the commission got it pretty much right."

Herbert said he was angered by the way the FA dealt with Terry, describing the decision to find him guilty of making a racist comment while stating that he was not a racist as "unbelievable".

"The FA describe that John Terry made a racist comment but [say he is] not a racist. That is an unbelievable application of logic and one, as a discrimination lawyer, you find quite incredible."

And he said he believed football authorities should be supporting any moves to combat racism: "The FA should not fear black players self-organising. They should embrace it."

Herbert added that any new group would seek to meet with the PFA to discuss matters on a regular basis.

And he said the new group could also tackle the under-representation of black managers in football.

"They are suffering systematic racism and the gross under-representation at managerial level of black players as coaches and managers is a scandal," he said.

Herbert also called for all players, regardless of race, to walk off the pitch if anyone suffered racist abuse.

"If there is a huge swell of racist chanting or abuse at a football match, the teams should come off. Not just black players, everyone should come off."
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20048531


*****

Where do people stand on this? An important step to help an under-represented (and more frequently abused) minority, or a divisive movement that doesn't help the fight against racism?
 
To kick us off I've quoted some of the important posts in the debate so far:

The Don said:
To be fair, I'm with them on this one. It's the stupidest idea I've ever heard of.
What we should do, is make sure the powers that be at the FA are fully represented by every minority.

Having a black only FA, would be a million times more racist that anything Suarez/Terry have done.

They made racist comments in the heat of the moment, horrible and should have been a harsher punishment but to go out of your way to create a governing body that will represent you, based purely on the colour of your skin, that is actually active racism. The idea should not even be entertained. It's ludicrous.
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The Don said:
A Black ONLY union. It's racist.
There is a world of difference between someone using a racial slur, in the heat of the moment, because they knew it would hurt the other person and creating a group that will exclude people based on the colour of their skin. It's racial discrimination. How you can't see that is baffling.
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Penna said:
Am I right in thinking that about 24% of Prem players are black? I have been trying to find out the exact figure, because I wouldn't have described black players in the Prem to be part of an under-represented minority, to use your phrase. Minority, yes - but a very significant percentage, all the same.
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Irwinwastheking said:
I think the 'under represented' wasn't in reference to players numbers, but in reference to representation for that large number of players on the various boards and associations that claim to represent the players. Management is a prime example.
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Sky1981 said:
This is absurd, what's next? South American players only FA? Japanese FA? Chinese FA?
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MrMarcello said:
Perhaps a separate PFA should be open to all blacks, Asians, Hispanics, et al to serve as one.

That said it does not appear Asians and Hispanics are anywhere near as racially targeted as blacks so the formation of a black PFA makes a bit of sense in that regard.

But the current PFA (and governing bodies) should be taking procactive actions - there shouldn't be a need for a separate PFA based on ethnicity or skin color.
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Cold Boy said:
I can see a lot of problems arising if this Black players FA is formed.

This will mean more division of people and football.

Must find some other ways to tackle racism even if its difficult.
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I think its divisive, but black players have little choice. If the FA cannot be trusted to solve this issue, then they will have to be forced to.

Racist abuse is one of the worst abuses possible on a football pitch. As serious for me as intentional violence. Punishment for it should be reflective and consistent.
 
To give my tuppence, I don't think it's either necessary or going to happen, but to say it's racist for a minority group to set up an association to better represent them is absurd.
 
It is a bad idea - Carlisle is bang on

But PFA chairman Carlisle said unity not separatism was needed.

"[A new body] has the potential to be divisive because when you establish a black players' union it would instantly define 'us and them' and that's something we really need to work against," the York City defender said.

"We don't need to separate the players when the whole focus and goal of anti-racism is to campaign for unity."
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Originally Posted by The Don
To be fair, I'm with them on this one. It's the stupidest idea I've ever heard of.
What we should do, is make sure the powers that be at the FA are fully represented by every minority.

Having a black only FA, would be a million times more racist that anything Suarez/Terry have done.

They made racist comments in the heat of the moment, horrible and should have been a harsher punishment but to go out of your way to create a governing body that will represent you, based purely on the colour of your skin, that is actually active racism. The idea should not even be entertained. It's ludicrous.
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Have you ever been abused because of the colour of your skin? Because to me there are few things as ludicrous and non sensical than that.

Having a superiority complex because your skin colour is different to somebody else is an abhorrent state of mind. And calling someone a 'black cnut' can never be excused away as a 'heat of the moment' gesture ... Im sorry but that make me feel very angry. To say such a phrase means you are racist in your views. Period.

Forcing change in this most vulgar and unacceptable of behaviours is paramount. Frankly, i don't really care what method is used to get there.
 
There is no need for a Blacks only group. They can surely go and form a body though with like minded individuals to combat the issue if they feel the FA doesnt do enough. Whats the point of not allowing white people to join if they want to? Absurd.
 
F.A.P.A.R

The footballers association of players against racism.

Have it so any creed/colour can join, including whites and boom, you've got yourself a good idea.
 
Irwinwastheking said:
To give my tuppence, I don't think it's either necessary or going to happen, but to say it's racist for a minority group to set up an association to better represent them is absurd.
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I dont think it will happen either, nor is it a good idea, but the FA have to be forced to condemn the behaviour. That supersedes anything for me.

In this instance any means justify's the end.
 
Tomalonge said:
F.A.P.A.R

The footballers association of players against racism.

Have it so any creed/colour can join, including whites and boom, you've got yourself a good idea.
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THIS is the solution if such a body is to be formed.

Actually thinking about it, its a bloody good idea ... if you don't join it, it implies that you are racist. So everybody will have to join and in doing so, abide by the principles the association sets. It could be a fantastic self policing system.
 
Steven Seagull said:
It's not a good idea but some people are arriving at that conclusion using some particularly retarded logic.
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Yeah, it's that same logic you see dipships using when they say that a black people calling a white person cracker is equal to a white person calling a black person ni***r.

It's not the same as there isn't thousands of years of oppression and persecution behind the insult to the white person. It's a similar logic that scousers used when they were defending suarez saying that balling Evra black wasn't insulting or racist because he is black. It's fecking idiocy, and to be honest I'm very surprised at some of the people in here.
 
I think it's not a wise idea and as has been mentioned will more likely create an "us and them" environmental. Perfectly right to want a tougher stance, some of the punishments handed out bu FA/FIFA/UEFA are ridiculous but I think unity is the best way forward. I don't see how a separate union could put that much pressure on and will probably create tensions as all black players will feel under pressure to join. Also would this lead to an asian players society?
 
sammsky1 said:
THIS is the solution if such a body is to be formed.

Actually thinking about it, its a bloody good idea ... if you don't join it, it implies that you are racist. So everybody will have to join and in doing so, abide by the principles the association sets. It could be a fantastic self policing system.
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Well I didn't think of that, but now you mention it, it could actually start something.
 
sammsky1 said:
THIS is the solution if such a body is to be formed.

Actually thinking about it, its a bloody good idea ... if you don't join it, it implies that you are racist. So everybody will have to join and in doing so, abide by the principles the association sets. It could be a fantastic self policing system.
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I think what the lawyer in the piece is really referring to is a focus group or a committee made up of black players who would meet the FA to give their viewpoint on matters and apply pressure on matters relevant to them. I think calling it a separate Black players PFA is a bit of a misnomer.
 
With Ferdinand, Lescott and Roberts potentially on board, I reckon they'd plump for a solid 4-5-1.
 
sammsky1 said:
Have you ever been abused because of the colour of your skin? Because to me there is nothing is as ludicrous and non sensical than that.

Having a superiority complex because your skin colour is different to somebody else is an abhorrent state of mind. And calling someone a 'black cnut' 'can never be excused away as a heat of the moment' gesture ... Im sorry but thats make me feel very angry. To say such a thing means you are either racist in your views. Period.

Forcing change in this most vulgar and unacceptable of behaviours is paramount. Frankly, i don't really care what method is used to get there.
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Does the current pfa try to represent all races? Yes, it does. Would a black pfa represent all races? No. Racial discrimination. The End.
 
The Don said:
Does the current pfa try to represent all races? Yes, it does. Would a black pfa represent all races? No. Racial discrimination. The End.
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A body which is representative of one particular racial group does not automatically mean racial discrimination so long as when they are pushing for the rights of their own group they do not do it to the detriment or discrimination of another group.

It's very simple really. Does the British Deaf society discriminate against those who can hear? No, they are there to push for more equality for the deaf.
 
That's possibly the worst analogy I've ever heard.

It doesn't even make any sense in the context of the argument. If there was a separate deaf society, for black people, that would be discriminating, too.

So what is your point?
 
The Don said:
That's possibly the worst analogy I've ever heard.

It doesn't even make any sense in the context of the argument. If there was a separate deaf society, for black people, that would be discriminating, too.

So what is your point?
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You really are being silly here. The Muslim council is an association which represents the views of the Muslim people of Britain. That doesn't mean that it's an inherently discriminatory organization, but merely there to protect the interests of it's own members. Is a woman's group knitting sexist? Is a church group which is only for members of one religion inherently discriminatory? NO!! That is the crux of the discussion.

If the deaf black population felt that the British Deaf society was not representing it's interests it would not be discriminatory for them to create a group with which to have a collective voice.

You are missing the key to this. Any group is entitled to gather collectively in order to best serve it's own interests and is not discriminatory unless what they are trying to achieve is to the detriment of others.
 
I think an overhaul is needed of the current organisation in terms of how it combats racism rather than establishing than causing division. The FA should increase their efforts to reduce racism towards all minorities and make them feel more accepted in football. I would hope the threat of a breakaway FA is just to scare the current powers that be into taking the situation more seriously, rather than a genuine plan.
 
Irwinwastheking said:
You really are being silly here. The Muslim council is an association which represents the views of the Muslim people of Britain. That doesn't mean that it's an inherently discriminatory organization, but merely there to protect the interests of it's own members. Is a woman's group knitting sexist? Is a church group which is only for members of one religion inherently discriminatory? NO!! That is the crux of the discussion.

If the deaf black population felt that the British Deaf society was not representing it's interests it would not be discriminatory for them to create a group with which to have a collective voice.

You are missing the key to this. Any group is entitled to gather collectively in order to best serve it's own interests and is not discriminatory unless what they are trying to achieve is to the detriment of others.
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What a post. Now that has actually made me see it from a different perspective. Thanks for having the patience to explain it to me properly. I totally get what you are saying now.

Saying that, I still dont see how its going to be anything but divisive and create an us vs them mentality in the game.

As I said in the other thread, it would be a much better idea to create a united PFA that represented all minorities in the game.
 
The Don said:
What a post. Now that has actually made me see it from a different perspective. Thanks for having the patience to explain it to me properly. I totally get what you are saying now.

Saying that, I still dont see how its going to be anything but divisive and create an us vs them mentality in the game.

As I said in the other thread, it would be a much better idea to create a united PFA that represented all minorities in the game.
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Not sure if you're mocking me here. ;)

I agree that it's not a good idea either for what it's worth, but that doesn't make it racist.
 
Its certainly divisive , but one has to assume thats why the threat is there, because the current organisation is clearly not doing enough.

Now its come out that Roberts decision wasnt out of the blue, and meetings have happened with the pfa etc to try and deal with the issues they have concerns about with little to no real change, then maybe there is a point to all this that we as onlookers are very much unaware of.

If it was out of the blue, I'd buy the whole ''spur of the moment looking for attention' stuff, but that there have been meetings suggests there are more to the complaints than terry only getting a 4 game ban. We likely as not have no idea of half of what goes on on a football pitch at any match between the players, if they feel this strongly, especially as there will be an inevitable negative reaction to it from a significant chunk of the public, then I would suggest there is some real problems, and if they force the FA to deal with it, good luck to them.
 
Let's promote our equality and the fact that we're all the same by dividing and separating us.
 
Leroy The Red said:
This.
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Apart from that, what are your views on this?

It's seems to be fairly normal for 'minorities' to set up interest/campaign groups, but I can't help thinking that if current players aren't happy with Kick it Out they might consider getting more involved with it in order to give it more muscle and point it in the direction they want it to be heading.

Unless they feel it has no muscle because it is too influenced by The FA/PFA perhaps?
 
A great suggestion was already made in this thread. For players of all creed and colour to establish a working group that is only there to put forward their views on Race and other prejudices in the game. Something like that would gain a lot of support and could do a lot more good than what's going on at the moment. Gay players in particular are terrified to come out for fear of vilification and that's just not on in 2012.
 
If you ask me all stuff like this is doing is making it worse. Something needs to be done but certainly not this.
If they end up doing something most people don't agree with (unlikely as it may be) it's just gonna cause more issues.
 
Irwinwastheking said:
A great suggestion was already made in this thread. For players of all creed and colour to establish a working group that is only there to put forward their views on Race and other prejudices in the game. Something like that would gain a lot of support and could do a lot more good than what's going on at the moment. Gay players in particular are terrified to come out for fear of vilification and that's just not on in 2012.
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Amen
 
It's apartheid, whatever way you look at it.
 
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