[Tincanalley]

Morning lads!

Waking up at my hotel in Manchester today still absolutely awestruck from that one! I can’t even explain what the atmosphere was like inside Trafford. I was in the standing section (n2401) but the whole place was so lively.

I’d just like to emphasise that it speaks volumes the two players most people raved about (Martinez and Malacia) were the ones hand chosen by ETH. On that basis, I think we should worry less about the money we are paying for Antony! This man can clearly spot a baller.

Anyway love and respect to everyone who went last night as well as everyone watching around the world.

Just don’t forget lads - Glazers out is the main thing. Enjoy the wins but don’t get distracted from the main mission.

Great stuff - well done glad you enjoyed

 

[Tincanalley]

username certainly checks out

Chuckle

 

[adexkola]

Result speaks for itself, what an evening!

The day after, and thinking of the bigger picture:

They comprehensively and convincingly put to rest the biggest question mark they were facing: Lack of will and effort. Which is huge, and opens up the way for progress. Of course, at the same they've now established a new baseline for themselves, a standard they'll be held to in future games.

That being said, in a quite a few other respects, it's doubtful if this game really showed a way forward.

Stylistically, this was a throwback to the sort of game we played against teams like Liverpool 3 or 4 seasons ago - basically ceding possession and control, and relying almost entirely on disruption and counterattack. As it has often been before, that was highly effective against this type of opponent. But we know it's not a template for the way forward. It's isn't going to work against Wolves or Palace or most other teams, any more than it has in the past. We had less than 30% possession, less than 70% pass completion. You can't play that way against teams who themselves cede the initiative.

We got away from our biggest problem in the first two games - build-up play - by simply not trying to do it. The one time we did, it ended with a corner for Liverpool. A smart adjustment considering the Brentford trauma and the nature of the opponent, but obviously we cannot continue doing this. This result bought us some time to work on that problem, but sooner or later we are going to have to actually solve it.

This is where I stand with it.

I'm also not aware of teams who can simultaneously dominate smaller sides and against the bigger sides get results by playing "pragmatically". Our ceiling is 3rd place with that approach.

 

[redmanx]

It was a wonderful result with great performances from every United player who started, making it a great team performance too. But theres still so much work to be done with individual errors blighting the team performance, Fred especially was culpable and surely now ETH must see that Fred simply isnt good enough. Bruno too was guilty of being over elaborate, both on the ball and off as he tried to "buy" free kicks. The defence was superb and its hard to see any way back for Maguire as a regular starter. Martial contributed to the excellent front running started by Elanga, Sancho and Rashford, but he and they, indeed everybody needs to perform to this level again, again and again. And a special mention to under fire DDG who showed another side of his keeper skills in coming off his line and acting like a sweeper. Old Trafford was rocking while Klopp and his Kloppites imploded with rows breaking out all over the pitch. A great night indeed!

 

[Wheato]

Came home from the match last night almost unable to speak such was the hoarseness of my voice. Woke up this morning absolutely shattered, and my back was in bits from throwing my lad in the air for both the goals and final whistle. I've had to watch it all again online to let it sink in.

What a game that was. From the first few seconds when Martinez flattened Salah, then shoved him again as he got up. The whole stadium was roaring and it didn't stop for the entire game. Every tackle was cheered and the players grew in confidence. It made such a difference to a team who have been guilty of shrinking once the fans start groaning after a missed pass.

I think that the attitude on and off the pitch made it a perfect storm and Liverpool couldn't live with it.

We have all been guilty of wallowing in this negative narrative that has been fuelled on social and mainstream media and when the momentum gets going in the wrong direction, it's hard to turn it around. But my God was that result needed. Not just because of the opponent, but the players who stepped up and made the pundits eat their words. Martinez was my man of the match, he was written off by many before kicking a ball. Sancho's filthy goal where he sent half of the Liverpool team for a hot dog. I was laughing my cock off.

This is the benchmark now. We know that they can do it. Stick Casemiro infront of Varane and Martinez and you start to see the spine of a decent team.

LUHG

 

[Pogue Mahone]

This is where I stand with it.

I'm also not aware of teams who can simultaneously dominate smaller sides and against the bigger sides get results by playing "pragmatically". Our ceiling is 3rd place with that approach.

I agree with this too but it’s surely pleasing to see that ETH can be pragmatic when he needs to be?

Someone mentioned last week that Dutch coaches can be such idealogues they’ll preside over defeat after defeat so long as they stay true to their “philosophy”. We all endured this under Van Gaal and we saw what happened to Koeman.

It’s great to have a coach who has a coherent vision for how he wants his team to play but it can only be a good thing that he’s willing to mix things up when we have a chance to get one over bitter rivals who are at a low ebb, while we haven’t yet got the final squad we need, or a team that has drilled all the new ideas for long enough to use them effectively.

 

[DSG]

Yup this.



Yeah that level of intensity isn't sustainable. We raised our game and got a result, so fair play but our baseline level is still hard to gauge.

It looked more like Conte / Jose ball than anything we were promised with EtH. Just need a tiny bit more composure in the middle so we can play it out through the press when we win the ball back.

Casemiro will add a little bit of that but I really don't like the look of Eriksen in that midfield two. He looked smashed in about 45 mins and really struggled to track runners and sprint back into position.

If we can get Casemiro + FdJ somehow that'll be perfection.

Actually, it looked a lot like Ole ball. We hunted optimistically, were very compact defensively and used superior pace and hold up play to put balls into space.

First time since Ole I’ve seen us embrace who we are: a team of superior athletes with pace who are at their best with quick counterattacks.

If you watch the PL very carefully, not just our games, but other matches as well, you’ll see that there has been a massive shift in tactics. Teams like Leeds, Palace, Newcastle are constantly hunting, buying players with high workrates and turning up the pressing intensity, both midfield and high. Honestly, I thought Newcastle was the better team for longer periods vs City, Leeds dominated Chelsea etc. The quality of mid / lower table teams is astounding in the PL this year, and every fixture is crazy difficult.

 

[Reiver]

The main thing now is to replicate this kind of team effort and work rate. If you had asked me, out of our first 3 games, who I thought we'd turn in this kind of performance against, I probably would have said Liverpool. People complain about other teams being game raising cnuts when we've been exactly that for years now.

 

[DSG]

Result speaks for itself, what an evening!

The day after, and thinking of the bigger picture:

They comprehensively and convincingly put to rest the biggest question mark they were facing: Lack of will and effort. Which is huge, and opens up the way for progress. Of course, at the same they've now established a new baseline for themselves, a standard they'll be held to in future games.

That being said, in a quite a few other respects, it's doubtful if this game really showed a way forward.

Stylistically, this was a throwback to the sort of game we played against teams like Liverpool 3 or 4 seasons ago - basically ceding possession and control, and relying almost entirely on disruption and counterattack. As it has often been before, that was highly effective against this type of opponent. But we know it's not a template for the way forward. It's isn't going to work against Wolves or Palace or most other teams, any more than it has in the past. We had less than 30% possession, less than 70% pass completion. You can't play that way against teams who themselves cede the initiative.

We got away from our biggest problem in the first two games - build-up play - by simply not trying to do it. The one time we did, it ended with a corner for Liverpool. A smart adjustment considering the Brentford trauma and the nature of the opponent, but obviously we cannot continue doing this. This result bought us some time to work on that problem, but sooner or later we are going to have to actually solve it.

Players:

De Gea: Our approach may have been effective, but it was also implicitly a searing indictment of de Gea - after he was unable to do what the system needs him to do, we changed the whole system to allow him to not have to do what he's not good at. And he still fecked up the one time we tried playing out from the back (passing to Varane who was in the wrong place with the wrong body shape and no way out). That option will not be available for most other games.

Malacia: I think he won himself a starting role for now. Showed what can be done with aggressiveness, confidence and good, quick decision-making.

Martinez/Varane: That looked good - Martinez aggressive and proactive, Varane calm and covering. I thought Martinez was unfairly slammed for his first two games too.

Dalot: I don't think this game showed anything different than other games: He's not good enough to be a starting RB for United. A particular horror is how he almost consistently stands off his man around the box, leaving ample space and time for the oppo to find the right option and put it into action.

McTominay: Ditto. Even in a type of game that is tailor made for him, he wasn't very good.

Eriksen: Still hard to form a judgment really. It's been three games with three different roles, he's neither obviously impressed or disappointed.

Bruno: Weird, extreme game. He worked his socks off and showed real spirit, for which he deserves huge credit. But he was not very effective as an attacker, nearly scored an own-goal that would have been a classic and frankly seemed overcharged at times - like the ridiculous situation where he refused to hand over the ball with one yellow card already in his pocket. Maybe that Bruno was the right one for yesterday, but I'm not very sure that's the Bruno I'd like to see going forward.

Rashford: What a reminder of how small the margins are for a player of his type. He's a constant threat, but that only works if he succeeds in what he's trying to do every now and then. Lately he hasn't but yesterday he did.

Elanga: I don't agree with the very positive assessment a lot of commentators had. He did beautifully on the goal obviously. But other than that, he's basically a player who tries hard, but far too rarely succeeds in doing what he's trying to do, at least yesterday. Still too raw to play regularly for United, in my opinion.

Martial showed why he's suddenly regarded as a valuable piece again, Sancho what he can be - but the sort of game we played yesterday isn't really one that suits him ideally.

I don’t see why pragmatism is such an issue in the Caf. Real has won 4 CLs in 6 years, Pep zero and Barca zero… Real possesses when they have to, otherwise they play very counterattacking.

Seriously, this is the club of Fergie, he played counterattacking football in all the big matches. It’s like they forgot how he set up in the big Euro and domestic fixtures.

It’s like half the Caf thinks wehave to play possession football or our dicks are smaller.

 

[lex talionis]

I don’t see why pragmatism is such an issue in the Caf. Real has won 4 CLs in 6 years, Pep zero and Barca zero… Real possesses when they have to, otherwise they play very counterattacking.

Seriously, this is the club of Fergie, he played counterattacking football in all the big matches. It’s like they forgot how he set up in the big Euro and domestic fixtures.

It’s like half the Caf thinks wehave to play possession football or our dicks are smaller.

Somewhat crudely stated, but your point is spot on. We're not going to reach the the holy land by confining ourselves to a single set of tactics. We have to adapt ourselves to the circumstances of the next opponent, which means having a solid foundation but also the flexibility to surprise the opposition with tactical adjustments that exploit opposition weaknesses.

 

[adexkola]

I agree with this too but it’s surely pleasing to see that ETH can be pragmatic when he needs to be?

Someone mentioned last week that Dutch coaches can be such idealogues they’ll preside over defeat after defeat so long as they stay true to their “philosophy”. We all endured this under Van Gaal and we saw what happened to Koeman.

It’s great to have a coach who has a coherent vision for how he wants his team to play but it can only be a good thing that he’s willing to mix things up when we have a chance to get one over bitter rivals who are at a low ebb, while we haven’t yet got the final squad we need, or a team that has drilled all the new ideas for long enough to use them effectively.

I really hate the term pragmatic.

Because you know what is implied by the term's usage:

1. Playing football that seizes the initiative is unwise. So is anything fancy, so lump it up, run the channels, and dig a trench, no possession beyond the halfway line
2. You increase your chances of winning by using the opponent's mistakes as opportunities to attack.

The 2 points are widely accepted in English football canon despite being nowhere near canonical.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The main thing now is to replicate this kind of team effort and work rate. If you had asked me, out of our first 3 games, who I thought we'd turn in this kind of performance against, I probably would have said Liverpool. People complain about other teams being game raising cnuts when we've been exactly that for years now.

You did watch the 2021/22 season, right?

 

[The Purley King]

Came home from the match last night almost unable to speak such was the hoarseness of my voice. Woke up this morning absolutely shattered, and my back was in bits from throwing my lad in the air for both the goals and final whistle. I've had to watch it all again online to let it sink in.

What a game that was. From the first few seconds when Martinez flattened Salah, then shoved him again as he got up. The whole stadium was roaring and it didn't stop for the entire game. Every tackle was cheered and the players grew in confidence. It made such a difference to a team who have been guilty of shrinking once the fans start groaning after a missed pass.

I think that the attitude on and off the pitch made it a perfect storm and Liverpool couldn't live with it.

We have all been guilty of wallowing in this negative narrative that has been fuelled on social and mainstream media and when the momentum gets going in the wrong direction, it's hard to turn it around. But my God was that result needed. Not just because of the opponent, but the players who stepped up and made the pundits eat their words. Martinez was my man of the match, he was written off by many before kicking a ball. Sancho's filthy goal where he sent half of the Liverpool team for a hot dog. I was laughing my cock off.

This is the benchmark now. We know that they can do it. Stick Casemiro infront of Varane and Martinez and you start to see the spine of a decent team.

LUHG

nice to hear the opinion of a match going fan - thank you!

 

[Reiver]

You did watch the 2021/22 season, right?

Fair enough. Before last season then.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I really hate the term pragmatic.

Because you know what is implied by the term's usage:

1. Playing football that seizes the initiative is unwise. So is anything fancy, so lump it up, run the channels, and dig a trench, no possession beyond the halfway line
2. You increase your chances of winning by using the opponent's mistakes as opportunities to attack.

The 2 points are widely accepted in English football canon despite being nowhere near canonical.

I’m not using the word to imply any kind of specific tactic. I’m using it quite literally. Making the best uses of the resources available to deal with the situation in front of you. Given a goalkeeper who can’t pass water, don’t insist he keeps passing it short. Even if that goes against how you would ideally prefer to play. In a match where you know you need hard work and aggression from your front three, bench the 37 year old prima donna who makes the least pressures out of any other striker in the league. Even though he was the team’s highest scorer last season. That sort of thing.

In terms of specific tactics we mixed it up last night. There was a fair bit of high pressing and the only player consistently hoofing it long was DDG. Varane and Martinez played plenty of passes on the deck, through the lines. You could see there were some longish spells where we seemed to tire and our passing was so sloppy at times we struggled to hold onto the ball. But we never parked the bus. You seem to be implying we played like Bolton under Big Sam. That wasn’t the match I watched.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Fair enough. Before last season then.

That’s a fair point. Up until last season we had a habit under Ole of pulling out big results against top teams after a run of terrible results against weak opposition. And we do have to hope this isn’t more of the same.

 

[justsomebloke]

I don’t see why pragmatism is such an issue in the Caf. Real has won 4 CLs in 6 years, Pep zero and Barca zero… Real possesses when they have to, otherwise they play very counterattacking.

Seriously, this is the club of Fergie, he played counterattacking football in all the big matches. It’s like they forgot how he set up in the big Euro and domestic fixtures.

It’s like half the Caf thinks wehave to play possession football or our dicks are smaller.

You seem to be under the impression I'm complaining. I'm not. Just pointing out we found a way to win we can't use against most teams.

 

[Red Company]

I’m not using the word to imply any kind of specific tactic. I’m using it quite literally. Making the best uses of the resources available to deal with the situation in front of you. Given a goalkeeper who can’t pass water, don’t insist he keeps passing it short. Even if that goes against how you would ideally prefer to play. In a match where you know you need hard work and aggression from your front three, bench the 37 year old prima donna who makes the least pressures out of any other striker in the league. Even though he was the team’s highest scorer last season. That sort of thing.

In terms of specific tactics we mixed it up last night. There was a fair bit of high pressing and the only player consistently hoofing it long was DDG. Varane and Martinez played plenty of passes on the deck, through the lines. You could see there were some longish spells where we seemed to tire and our passing was so sloppy at times we struggled to hold onto the ball. But we never parked the bus. You seem to be implying we played like Bolton under Big Sam. That wasn’t the match I watched.

Good post. Spot on.

 

[Gordon S]

Given a goalkeeper who can’t pass water, don’t insist he keeps passing it short. Even if that goes against how you would ideally prefer to play. In a match where you know you need hard work and aggression from your front three, bench the 37 year old prima donna who makes the least pressures out of any other striker in the league

As the 2 previous games showed, i don´t think ETH can afford to think otherwise going forward either.
If he starts Ronaldo on saturday and tries to have De Gea play it out from the back we will probably be in trouble again.

The way we played last night is probably the blueprint to what works tactically for this squad, and i don´t have any problems with that.
I honestly quite enjoy a more simple and direct football with good energy and intensity. And i also think we could be succesful with it.
If Ole could reach top 3 two times in a row i think we could go even further with some tweeking and better organisation from ETH.
We will soon see which path he chooses.

 

[Real Name]

Bruno is completely in the right here. Its United ball to kick of, Salah should have fek of.

 

[largelyworried]

As the 2 previous games showed, i don´t think ETH can afford to think otherwise going forward either.
If he starts Ronaldo on saturday and tries to have De Gea play it out from the back we will probably be in trouble again.

The way we played last night is probably the blueprint to what works tactically for this squad, and i don´t have any problems with that.
I honestly quite enjoy a more simple and direct football with good energy and intensity. And i also think we could be succesful with it.
If Ole could reach top 3 two times in a row i think we could go even further with some tweeking and better organisation from ETH.
We will soon see which path he chooses.

I think people are failing to differentiate between playing out from the back and playing through a press. I'm certain we'll see lots of playing out from the back this season, because if the press isnt on, why would we not? Very few teams press all game, or even a majority of the game, so you can still build up from the back most of the time.

Indeed if the opposition team is sitting back, then going long is a bad idea, since it means most of those balls will be contested. Our lads are not going to be winning many duals in the air against seasoned defenders. We either want balls to unmarked players, or balls into space for them to run on to.

The real question is how we deal with a press when it happens, and even then there's nuance. There are different ways to deal with it. The high risk/high reward way is to involve your goalkeeper in playing through the press close to your own goal. Get it right and you bypass the entire front line and have a spare man in midfield to boot, so its great if it works. Get it wrong though and it's probably a goal conceded. See Brentford 2nd goal. I suspect we won't see much of this with De Gea.

But there are other ways too. A common one is to split your CBs really wide and get your GK to pass to whichever is free. If they then press the CB, they try and work through the press using the full backs and midfielders. Not as effective, since it doesnt stretch the opposition and you don't outnumber them, but it can still work.

I suspect we'll still continue to do the latter or use other approaches like it, as well as play out from the back when there's no press at all. So most of the time I expect it to be ball on the floor stuff. The only thing I don't expect to see is De Gea involved as the extra man in passing through a press.

 

[Fosu-Mens]

Our pressing was succesfull due to actually having players willing to run and press high, a more mobile CB pairing and Liverpool playing a midfield that was as good at progressing the ball as McFred (the irony).

Our ability to take advantage of winning the ball high up the pitch was not great, but it will improve. Still, it will be interesting to see if teams will continue to press high against us or play with a low block.

 

[justsomebloke]

As the 2 previous games showed, i don´t think ETH can afford to think otherwise going forward either.
If he starts Ronaldo on saturday and tries to have De Gea play it out from the back we will probably be in trouble again.

The way we played last night is probably the blueprint to what works tactically for this squad, and i don´t have any problems with that.
I honestly quite enjoy a more simple and direct football with good energy and intensity. And i also think we could be succesful with it.
If Ole could reach top 3 two times in a row i think we could go even further with some tweeking and better organisation from ETH.
We will soon see which path he chooses.

You think hoofing it into the midfield every time is going to work well against most teams in the PL? Most other teams don't play with that vulnerable space behind their back line and most other teams also don't have a game-plan that falls apart if you disrupt their build-up play. Ole's team, with few exceptions, did not play in this way in 20/21, when they finished second. They most certainly didn't in the late winter/spring of the preceding season, when they surged to 3rd place with that long unbeaten run. And while there was always a case for Ole's pragmatic approach in 20/21 ("working the space" rather than a more drilled, systematic approach), that did ultimately fall apart spectacularly within weeks the following season. Pragmatism should mean the ability to adjust against specific opponents when you need to, but there's got to be a clear system at the base. And what we saw against Liverpool isn't going to be that.

 

[justsomebloke]

I think people are failing to differentiate between playing out from the back and playing through a press. I'm certain we'll see lots of playing out from the back this season, because if the press isnt on, why would we not? Very few teams press all game, or even a majority of the game, so you can still build up from the back most of the time.

Indeed if the opposition team is sitting back, then going long is a bad idea, since it means most of those balls will be contested. Our lads are not going to be winning many duals in the air against seasoned defenders. We either want balls to unmarked players, or balls into space for them to run on to.

The real question is how we deal with a press when it happens, and even then there's nuance. There are different ways to deal with it. The high risk/high reward way is to involve your goalkeeper in playing through the press close to your own goal. Get it right and you bypass the entire front line and have a spare man in midfield to boot, so its great if it works. Get it wrong though and it's probably a goal conceded. See Brentford 2nd goal. I suspect we won't see much of this with De Gea.

But there are other ways too. A common one is to split your CBs really wide and get your GK to pass to whichever is free. If they then press the CB, they try and work through the press using the full backs and midfielders. Not as effective, since it doesnt stretch the opposition and you don't outnumber them, but it can still work.

I suspect we'll still continue to do the latter or use other approaches like it, as well as play out from the back when there's no press at all. So most of the time I expect it to be ball on the floor stuff. The only thing I don't expect to see is De Gea involved as the extra man in passing through a press.

That then pretty much comes down to the GK making the right decision in each individual case whether it's better to start play short or play it long. Which is a little frightening given that De Gea's decision making on that front seems to be even worse than his passing accuracy.

 

[justsomebloke]

Bruno is completely in the right here. Its United ball to kick of, Salah should have fek of.

On the other hand, the ref could easily see that as time-wasting and/or unsportsmanslike conduct. Which given that he's already got a yellow makes that pretty reckless and stupid. Also, Liverpool could easily have turned it into a more confrontational situation where the ref would have been compelled to hand out a yellow to each side, which would have gotten him sent off. Bruno needs to keep his head better than that, he was lucky this time.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

On the other hand, the ref could easily see that as time-wasting and/or unsportsmanslike conduct. Which given that he's already got a yellow makes that pretty reckless and stupid. Also, Liverpool could easily have turned it into a more confrontational situation where the ref would have been compelled to hand out a yellow to each side, which would have gotten him sent off. Bruno needs to keep his head better than that, he was lucky this time.

Yet Salah chasing Bruno around preventing him going where was needed with the ball wasted time as well.

 

[Real Name]

Yet Salah chasing Bruno around preventing him going where was needed with the ball wasted time as well.

My thoughts too.

 

[justsomebloke]

Yet Salah chasing Bruno around preventing him going where was needed with the ball wasted time as well.

That obviously was not Salahs motive for chasing him around. But there was no possible other motive for Brunos insistence in hanging on to the ball.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

My thoughts too.

Salah should have just left it and if Bruno carried on wasting time the ref will deal with it.

 

[justsomebloke]

Salah should have just left it and if Bruno carried on wasting time the ref will deal with it.

If we're talking about what was smart for Liverpool, Salah and his co-players should have surrounded Bruno and gotten into a shoving match. That would have gotten Bruno sent off. The fact that they didn't doesn't mean that Bruno wasn't being stupidly reckless.

Time-wasting wise, you could just as well argue let Salah grab the ball and place in the circle - play does not in any case start until a United player has trudged up there and kicked the ball. I would assume the object was rather to rile and frustrate the opposition to break up their sense of momentum, but that's a game best played by someone who doesn't already have a yellow....

 

[largelyworried]

That then pretty much comes down to the GK making the right decision in each individual case whether it's better to start play short or play it long. Which is a little frightening given that De Gea's decision making on that front seems to be even worse than his passing accuracy.

Not really, the decision on which way to handle a press is determined by the position of the CBs, not the decision of the goalkeeper, and is probably decided in advance by the manager anyway.

All De Gea needs to do is see if there's an unmarked CB to pass it to on either side, and if not, play it long. Which is how he's played short balls for pretty much all his career, so will be adequate to keep us going until we find a better replacement, without entirely ditching the manager's plans until then.

 

[justsomebloke]

Not really, the decision on which way to handle a press is determined by the position of the CBs, not the decision of the goalkeeper, and is probably decided in advance by the manager anyway.

All De Gea needs to do is see if there's an unmarked CB to pass it to on either side, and if not, play it long. Which is how he's played short balls for pretty much all his career, so will be adequate to keep us going until we find a better replacement, without entirely ditching the manager's plans until then.

In reality, it's nowhere near that clear-cut. What exactly is "an unmarked CB"? When does he become "marked"? When he's got a player 4 feet away from him? 6? 10? What if there's a player moving towards the CB, and the CB is stationary? What about his body shape? How about what sort of passing options the CB will have after getting the ball? How do you handle a situation like against Brentford, when they left Maguire free and man-marked everyone else? Just do what they're trying to make you do and pass him the ball because he's unmarked? What do you do if the oppo figures out your scheme and closely mark your CBs on the press because they want you to go long? There are no straightforward recipes to solve these problems - it will come down to the ability of the players, and especially the GK, to make a correct reading of the situation.

 

[largelyworried]

In reality, it's nowhere near that clear-cut. What exactly is "an unmarked CB"? When does he become "marked"? When he's got a player 4 feet away from him? 6? 10? What if there's a player moving towards him, and he's stationary? What about his body shape? How about what sort of passing options the CB will have after getting the ball? How do you handle a situation like against Brentford, when they left Maguire free and man-marked everyone else?

If in doubt, play it long, simple as that.

 

[Gordon S]

You think hoofing it into the midfield every time is going to work well against most teams in the PL? Most other teams don't play with that vulnerable space behind their back line and most other teams also don't have a game-plan that falls apart if you disrupt their build-up play. Ole's team, with few exceptions, did not play in this way in 20/21, when they finished second. They most certainly didn't in the late winter/spring of the preceding season, when they surged to 3rd place with that long unbeaten run. And while there was always a case for Ole's pragmatic approach in 20/21 ("working the space" rather than a more drilled, systematic approach), that did ultimately fall apart spectacularly within weeks the following season. Pragmatism should mean the ability to adjust against specific opponents when you need to, but there's got to be a clear system at the base. And what we saw against Liverpool isn't going to be that.

We definitely can not just hoof it into midfield every time, we have to mix it up.

It´s a big challenge for ETH to find the right balance and tactics with this team.
He needs to find a way to hurt teams that sits back a bit more as well. We really struggled to create anything against Brighton and Brentford and were vulnerable for counters while moving forward. Really interesting to see now how the team is setup on saturday.

 

[justsomebloke]

We definitely can not just hoof it into midfield every time, we have to mix it up.

It´s a big challenge for ETH to find the right balance and tactics with this team.
He needs to find a way to hurt teams that sits back a bit more as well. We really struggled to create anything against Brighton and Brentford and were vulnerable for counters while moving forward. Really interesting to see now how the team is setup on saturday.

Totally - can't wait to see how this develops. At least it's more interesting now that we know it doesn't necessarily have to go to sh*t.

 

[justsomebloke]

If in doubt, play it long, simple as that.

Doesn't really get you much further, does it. Because that's still the GK who has to decide if and when there's doubt.

Also, that in the end means that you only do as much build-up play as your GKs confidence and decision-making allows. So while that's a sound rule of thumb to minimise the risk of really bad cock-ups by the GK, it doesn't really bring you much closer to being able to vary correctly between playing out from the back and playing it long according to the opponents posture.

 

[Glorio]

I admit, for a good few seconds there I thought Stormzy was Lukaku when he came into the shot (and thought this will be tasty) - I blame the hoodie

Edit:
We're the same race, it's not to do with that, they just have a really close resemblance I feel

 

[captaincantona]

You think hoofing it into the midfield every time is going to work well against most teams in the PL? Most other teams don't play with that vulnerable space behind their back line and most other teams also don't have a game-plan that falls apart if you disrupt their build-up play. Ole's team, with few exceptions, did not play in this way in 20/21, when they finished second. They most certainly didn't in the late winter/spring of the preceding season, when they surged to 3rd place with that long unbeaten run. And while there was always a case for Ole's pragmatic approach in 20/21 ("working the space" rather than a more drilled, systematic approach), that did ultimately fall apart spectacularly within weeks the following season. Pragmatism should mean the ability to adjust against specific opponents when you need to, but there's got to be a clear system at the base. And what we saw against Liverpool isn't going to be that.

How we played against Liverpool is exactly how we should have played and should play against them. We just need better players in midfield so we are not so wasteful in possession.

Their number one weapon is creating chances from high pressures…so why give them the chance? If they had Crouchy still up top we would try stop them crossing so I don’t see how it’s different.

where we develop in these games is what we do once we skip that first press. With better, more press resistant players in the middle of the park and full backs that can stretch the pitch we should have more of the ball higher up the field.

Essentially,not playing out from the back from goal kicks does not mean we surrender possession and play oleball. We just nullify their main threat, stop them building up a head of steam like they do when they win the ball back high up the field and the Kop start having epileptic fits.

we then play our game in the second phase.

 

[justsomebloke]

How we played against Liverpool is exactly how we should have played and should play against them. We just need better players in midfield so we are not so wasteful in possession.

Their number one weapon is creating chances from high pressures…so why give them the chance? If they had Crouchy still up top we would try stop them crossing so I don’t see how it’s different.

where we develop in these games is what we do once we skip that first press. With better, more press resistant players in the middle of the park and full backs that can stretch the pitch we should have more of the ball higher up the field.

Essentially,not playing out from the back from goal kicks does not mean we surrender possession and play oleball. We just nullify their main threat, stop them building up a head of steam like they do when they win the ball back high up the field and the Kop start having epileptic fits.

we then play our game in the second phase.

I agree completely this was the right way to play against Liverpool at this time, with this squad.

not playing out from the back from goal kicks does not mean we surrender possession

Yes, it does. That's why we had less than 30% possession.

and play oleball.

I'm not sure what you mean by "oleball", but this certainly was more direct and less possession-oriented than we generally played under OGS.

 

[captaincantona]

I agree completely this was the right way to play against Liverpool at this time, with this squad.

not playing out from the back from goal kicks does not mean we surrender possession

Yes, it does. That's why we had less than 30% possession.

and play oleball.

I'm not sure what you mean by "oleball", but this certainly was more direct and less possession-oriented than we generally played under OGS.

kicking it long from goal kicks does not mean we surrender possession for the entire game at all. My point was that with more progressive full backs and better players in the middle of the park, on the occasions where we have goal kicks, we simply rely on winning knock ons and second balls to win back possession. Casemiro will be key to this.

This does not mean that we surrender possession for the entire game - goal kicks are not that central a feature of a football match but Liverpool exploit them brilliantly.

Ole ball was counter attacking full stop. A-B ASAP. that was our only effective way of playing under Ole. We were shit otherwise.

so I am saying, against high pressing sides, Going long from goal kicks does not mean having to play on the break. We can just gain possession in different areas of the pitch and use it better.