Post match v Liverpool

noodlehair said:
To be fair most of the goals were more down to our players just not bothering to defend or do their jobs properly than they were being countered.

There was one where Rashford just walked out to block a cross. Another where Shaw pretty much angrily kicked the ball into his own net. Another where Shaw was there but just didn't bother to run (well, jog) with the player behind him. At another point Fernandes ran over and kicked someone, then when they just carried on with the ball he literally stopped and sulked off.

I have honestly never seen anything so collectively pathetic and when you have people behaving like that it's not really going to matter what tactics or plan b you have. It's like trying to feed a toddler peas instead of carrots when they are busy throwing a tantrum because they've sh*t in their nappy.

ETH does ultimately take responsibility for results, but atm I'm more baffled how he has squeezed a good and resilient looking football team out of a group of players who are capable of such an embarrassing and staggering lack of professionalism...because that kind of performance doesn't come from it being an off day or from nothing. It comes from having to deal with people who don't think or react like grown adults and would therefore be an extremely challenging group of people to manage.

I think we're only going to find out what ETH is capable of doing about it the next time we end up in a difficult/borderline lost cause situation against a good side, because it's easy to hide a poor attitude when no one's back is against a wall and/or the opposition aren't out for blood.

I'm obviously still hopeful the progress this season will continue under ETH, but for me the players have lost all trust. If any single one of them is off it attitude wise even for a minute in any game going forwards, ETH is well within his rights to haul them off and never play them again, and actually it'd arguably be weak management if he did anything less, and what a farcical situation that is to put your manager in to begin with.
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I think this is a post that ultimately ignores everything we know about about human beings and emotions.

On one hand, we laud their grit and determination vs Barcelona and in other matches. Yet, we criticize them for being human and feeling dejected at losing big to a huge rival. Of course, we are all disappointed with the way they responded, but does everything have to be black and white? Can we have shades of grey?

I just don’t agree with the vitriol the Caf is throwing their way. As fans, I think we need to be measured and reasonable with criticism. Of course, it’s okay to criticize, but context matters. And the fact is that this team has shown a lot of character this season, something we certainly didn’t see last year.
 
DSG said:
I think this is a post that ultimately ignores everything we know about about human beings and emotions.

On one hand, we laud their grit and determination vs Barcelona and in other matches. Yet, we criticize them for being human and feeling dejected at losing big to a huge rival. Of course, we are all disappointed with the way they responded, but does everything have to be black and white? Can we have shades of grey?

I just don’t agree with the vitriol the Caf is throwing their way. As fans, I think we need to be measured and reasonable with criticism. Of course, it’s okay to criticize, but context matters. And the fact is that this team has shown a lot of character this season, something we certainly didn’t see last year.
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No sorry, buy this argument applies if there is a bit of a blip or a few poor performances.

What I saw on Saturday was in terms of professionalism, quite possibly the worst performance I've ever seen from a sports team, and I think that is pretty measured, because I struggle to even think of anything comparable. Give me another example of a team collapsing and behaving like that in a game? Or losing 7-0 to a team 10 points below them.

The context is what makes it worse. If this was a team struggling, and devoid of quality or the ability to compete at this level, then you'd have to account for that. This team has been better than Liverpool all season and what happened is they simply stopped doing their jobs.

It's all well qmd good telling me they are human beings. If I went to work amd behaved like that, as a human being, I would be sacked, amd I'm not supposed to be one of the elite professional people in the world at what I do.

The measure of it is that this team lost 7-0 to Liverpool with most probably both the worst performance and worst result in the entire history of the football club. That is where we are at I'm afraid. At the moment my mindset is that I can't take these players seriously as professional footballers anymore, and it's going to take a lot to earn that trust back again from not just myself but a lot of fans I suspect. I feel embarrassed both for and of them.
 
Try and bury your head in the sand and call us wumms if you want but you can't ignore this defeat, it felt bad. Admit it. You can't ignore Bruno throwing the strop mid game, still so much time left, and so many goals left to (hopefully not) concede. Absolutely enraging, and giving up on the ball completely after an attempted foul is the thing that has stuck with me since Sunday. But the worst bit was seeing the goals. Then after that it would be seeing the amount of goals, in the corner of the screen on the tv. We've all been there. Just sitting there unable to stop it, so you are doing a bit shouting and kicking stuff but you can't actually help the team through the tv. Normally you start sending some angry messages to the players on social media to do your bit to rally them, and gee them up for one last big push for the remaining games. This time, for the most part, me and my family didn't even send much abuse at all - which is really not like us. I'm not sure how Bruno would feel about that, but if you are reading this Bruno, I hope you feel bad too.
 
NewDawnFades said:
Try and bury your head in the sand and call us wumms if you want but you can't ignore this defeat, it felt bad. Admit it. You can't ignore Bruno throwing the strop mid game, still so much time left, and so many goals left to (hopefully not) concede. Absolutely enraging, and giving up on the ball completely after an attempted foul is the thing that has stuck with me since Sunday. But the worst bit was seeing the goals. Then after that it would be seeing the amount of goals, in the corner of the screen on the tv. We've all been there. Just sitting there unable to stop it, so you are doing a bit shouting and kicking stuff but you can't actually help the team through the tv. Normally you start sending some angry messages to the players on social media to do your bit to rally them, and gee them up for one last big push for the remaining games. This time, for the most part, me and my family didn't even send much abuse at all - which is really not like us. I'm not sure how Bruno would feel about that, but if you are reading this Bruno, I hope you feel bad too.
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:lol:

At this point I can only assume the mods are playing with you letting you stay
 
crossy1686 said:
One players runs himself into the ground on a regular basis, another can’t wait to be subbed off because he’s ripped his sock. I’d say Weghorst cares more than Pogba ever did during his time here.
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Running himself into the ground shouldn’t be the benchmark for what’s required to play at United. The fact that is enough some is an issue, we have a tendency to massively celebrate players who aren’t very good.

Point stands, of Ronaldo or Pogba had done the same people should be kicking off way more.
 
I see so many knee jerk reactions, player x is at fault, the manager is at fault and god knows who else.
What if Rashford and Bruno scored their chances? Then the manager would have been a hero and Bruno would be worshipped.

Why was it a mistake to start Dalot? The only debatable player on the pitch was Weghorst simply because he is not a good player
 
noodlehair said:
To be fair most of the goals were more down to our players just not bothering to defend or do their jobs properly than they were being countered.

There was one where Rashford just walked out to block a cross. Another where Shaw pretty much angrily kicked the ball into his own net. Another where Shaw was there but just didn't bother to run (well, jog) with the player behind him. At another point Fernandes ran over and kicked someone, then when they just carried on with the ball he literally stopped and sulked off.

I have honestly never seen anything so collectively pathetic and when you have people behaving like that it's not really going to matter what tactics or plan b you have. It's like trying to feed a toddler peas instead of carrots when they are busy throwing a tantrum because they've sh*t in their nappy.

ETH does ultimately take responsibility for results, but atm I'm more baffled how he has squeezed a good and resilient looking football team out of a group of players who are capable of such an embarrassing and staggering lack of professionalism...because that kind of performance doesn't come from it being an off day or from nothing. It comes from having to deal with people who don't think or react like grown adults and would therefore be an extremely challenging group of people to manage.

I think we're only going to find out what ETH is capable of doing about it the next time we end up in a difficult/borderline lost cause situation against a good side, because it's easy to hide a poor attitude when no one's back is against a wall and/or the opposition aren't out for blood.

I'm obviously still hopeful the progress this season will continue under ETH, but for me the players have lost all trust. If any single one of them is off it attitude wise even for a minute in any game going forwards, ETH is well within his rights to haul them off and never play them again, and actually it'd arguably be weak management if he did anything less, and what a farcical situation that is to put your manager in to begin with.
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Perfectly said.

There is no game planning for the worst display of professionalism I've probably ever seen in team sports.

ETH should axe any player from the squad if they pull even 10% of what they did at Anfield at some point going forward.
 
m1tch said:
A few days later and I still can't get my head around how a team with Varane, Martinez and Casemiro in it could let this happen. If they couldn't control the team then we probably need to rethink ideas like "right back / goalkeeper / centre midfield / etc might not be immediate priorities in the summer."

I'm not sure what to think of the argument of "it's one result", I can't stop thinking of Keano's quote after Liverpool thrashed us 5-0 at Old Trafford...
“There are too many bluffers, and ultimately these players will cost Ole his job. The players he has got there, they threw the previous manager under the bus, and they will do the same to Ole.”
Have we got rid of enough of the bluffers?
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7-0 is 7-0 and there needs to be ramifications -- we can't lose by SEVEN goals without reply against our biggest rivals no matter what -- but I will say that as opposed to previous recent thrashings Sunday did feel more like a one-off. The 5-0 demolition at home last season (or even the subsequent City and Watford games) felt more like a 7-0 game to me.

I won't deny that our current group of players have an oversized mental block when it comes to Liverpool, though.
 
m1tch said:
I would tend to agree, and when you look at the side there's not too many who played in that fixture who played in this one, certainly not enough to make you think the problem would still exist. The result was worse though, so it just raises some questions.
1. Is it really just a freak result and nothing more is to be taken from it?
2. Did we replace the bluffers with bluffers?
3. Are the bluffers still present from that 0-5 game big culprits in this result?
4. Is this a sign that these players could throw EtH under the bus? This is a stretch, don't get me wrong, but we are still essentially in the honeymoon period. We had bounces like this before (except under Rangnick).
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1- Of course it was just a freak result. Our form since the end of the world cup has been something ridiculous. Bluffers don't give you that long consistent good form.
2- No. Martinez is the real deal, Varane is back to fitness, Malacia is a very good squad option. Fred is only starting because Eriksen is injured.
Can you imagine if the same game was played by Lindelof, Maguire, and Alex Telles for example? Would've ended in double digits.
3- Same as above.
4- No, because they have more chances to do this in the beginning of the season and didn't.
 
NewDawnFades said:
Try and bury your head in the sand and call us wumms if you want but you can't ignore this defeat, it felt bad. Admit it. You can't ignore Bruno throwing the strop mid game, still so much time left, and so many goals left to (hopefully not) concede. Absolutely enraging, and giving up on the ball completely after an attempted foul is the thing that has stuck with me since Sunday. But the worst bit was seeing the goals. Then after that it would be seeing the amount of goals, in the corner of the screen on the tv. We've all been there. Just sitting there unable to stop it, so you are doing a bit shouting and kicking stuff but you can't actually help the team through the tv. Normally you start sending some angry messages to the players on social media to do your bit to rally them, and gee them up for one last big push for the remaining games. This time, for the most part, me and my family didn't even send much abuse at all - which is really not like us. I'm not sure how Bruno would feel about that, but if you are reading this Bruno, I hope you feel bad too.
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:lol: :lol: :lol: Bravo troll!! Other wums should learn from this guy and make your trolling hilarious
 
Denis79 said:
You're not a United fan if this doesn't bother you.
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If I let defeat ruin my week am I a real fan? I've never before seen gatekeeping like some posters on this site, maybe read my post again because I said it didn't bother me that much which would imply that it did in fact bother me a little bit. You also decided to ignore the rest of my post regarding the progress that is obviously being made this season which has already culminated in a trophy and won't be thrown away with one big loss.
 
Dansk said:
How the feck does something like this even happen? What on Earth can go so wrong that a team in great form, placed third in the league, can lose 7-0 to a team that has been in relegation form since the start of the year? Can anyone attempt to explain that?

And why does this sort of thing only ever seem to happen to United? What is it about this club that mysteriously makes these historically disastrous results happen? This doesn't happen to other clubs. It's literally just United. Why? What's causing it? Why do we seem to have several games every season that make you wonder if someone drugged the players or something? We have been utterly annihilated, humiliated and shat upon by both of our main rivals in the same season, conceding six against one and seven against the other. That isn't something that ever happens to any other club in football.

We just knocked Barcelona out of the EL a week ago. Now we're losing seven fecking nil to the worst Liverpool team in history. How the hell is that something that can happen? No amount of fatigue should lead to that. I would believe fatigue to be the answer if we'd lost, say, 2-0 or 3-1. SEVEN NIL, though? SEVEN?! Unless these players have chosen to stop sleeping at night or something, there is no conceivable way that they can be this tired just from playing slightly more games in the last month than they're used to. That's completely unrealistic. That should not be something that can happen.
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You really think we're the only club in the world which get hammered like that by a rival?
It isnt an excuse but that wasnt the worst Liverpool team in history. They're a team in crisis but when they click they're hell to play against. Saying all that, its a freak result and we sure shouldn't have lost like that.
 
Real Name said:
You really think we're the only club in the world which get hammered like that by a rival?
It isnt an excuse but that wasnt the worst Liverpool team in history. They're a team in crisis but when they click they're hell to play against. Saying all that, its a freak result and we sure shouldn't have lost like that.
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We're not, but @noodlehair's posts describe the bigger issue.

There was a serious lack of professionalism on display to lose 7-0. We didn't lose by 3 or 4 goals. We lost by 7 seven goals and the entire 2nd half was a disgrace to the club's ideals/values with the professionalism on display.

Some of the players should be on very short leashes going forward(and some shouldn't be here outright next season). We have to maintain some sort of standard.

Not saying the entire squad should be sold, but that display was completely unacceptable.
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
We're not, but @noodlehair's posts describe the bigger issue.

There was a serious lack of professionalism on display to lose 7-0. We didn't lose by 3 or 4 goals. We lost by 7 seven goals and the entire 2nd half was a disgrace to the club's ideals/values with the professionalism on display.

Some of the players should be on very short leashes going forward(and some shouldn't be here outright next season). We have to maintain some sort of standard.

Not saying the entire squad should be sold, but that display was completely unacceptable.
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That I agree with.
 
Denis79 said:
You're not a United fan if this doesn't bother you.
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This kind of posts never go well. 100 people 100 ways of dealing with defeats like that. If it doesnt bother him that much or bothers him less than you that doesnt nor should mean he's any less of an United fan.
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
We're not, but @noodlehair's posts describe the bigger issue.

There was a serious lack of professionalism on display to lose 7-0. We didn't lose by 3 or 4 goals. We lost by 7 seven goals and the entire 2nd half was a disgrace to the club's ideals/values with the professionalism on display.

Some of the players should be on very short leashes going forward(and some shouldn't be here outright next season). We have to maintain some sort of standard.

Not saying the entire squad should be sold, but that display was completely unacceptable.
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I've watched the extended highlights several times, the manner of the defeat was the biggest issue, the players just gave up. The defending in the second half was shocking, the whole team just fell apart. It's like they have some sort of mental block when it comes to Anfield.

For me and I'll parrot Roy Keane a little, it's the players character that comes into question, to just roll over and let them trounce you like that is unacceptable.

Players need to be punished for it, make them ride the bench for a few games. If they don't like it, tough. Suck it up and play better next time.

For others, it should signal the end of their Utd careers.
 
MUFC OK said:
Running himself into the ground shouldn’t be the benchmark for what’s required to play at United. The fact that is enough some is an issue, we have a tendency to massively celebrate players who aren’t very good.

Point stands, of Ronaldo or Pogba had done the same people should be kicking off way more.
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Pogba literally went out of his way to get sent off against Liverpool in a trouncing and people still defended him on here.

I agree players get praised for running around showing "pashun". I'd rather have players use their brains.
 
From Sunday on every game should be about making up for that nightmare. Every game. Some will make it some not but the ultimate goal is to make a team capable of winning the league or at least challenging and coming to Anfield not like sheep for slaughter but with their chins up. Next time we play there I hope, expect the team to go out there determined to show days of getting hammered there are far gone or getting hammered in general.
 
It all started when Ole Gunnar Solskjaer was sacked. A prelude in what is to come. We've given up on United's way.
I am not even sure why sir Alex still comes to these games, it doesn't do his heart good.

The man should live with his memories which he has plenty and not bother. His input in the way club is run is non-existant. And it shows.
 
I am annoyed but it's better to wake up early. Reality slapped us hard.
Some of the players aren't United quality and we're lacking squad depth. Which means we need to spend.
We still lack that consistency and winning at all cost mentality, losing focus easily. Which means we're far from a finished product, these players need to be kept at their toes all the time.
Ten Hag's team can turn back against him if this is allowed to continue just like the managers before him. Which means the manager needs our backing now more than ever because he's the best we've had post Sir Alex.
Stop the bad things early and fix them quickly before it's too late.
 
Real Name said:
This kind of posts never go well. 100 people 100 ways of dealing with defeats like that. If it doesnt bother him that much or bothers him less than you that doesnt nor should mean he's any less of an United fan.
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Agreed. Although if watching United, particularly last season, hasn't desensitised you to embarrassing defeats, performances where they clearly don't care, and social media apologises, then I don't know what will.

The outlier results of late were our narrow wins at OT against city and Liverpool, otherwise they've both been thrashing us consistently for a while.

Those that have become disconnected and can move on with their lives after are in a far healthier state. Gloating when you win and punching walls for a week when you lose is teenager/RAWK stuff, but let's face it we know our fanbase isn't any different to theirs.
 
m1tch said:
Agreed. Although if watching United, particularly last season, hasn't desensitised you to embarrassing defeats, performances where they clearly don't care, and social media apologises, then I don't know what will.

The outlier results of late were our narrow wins at OT against city and Liverpool, otherwise they've both been thrashing us consistently for a while.

Those that have become disconnected and can move on with their lives after are in a far healthier state. Gloating when you win and punching walls for a week when you lose is teenager/RAWK stuff, but let's face it we know our fanbase isn't any different to theirs.
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Stuff like that doesnt bother me as it used to. I'm just older I guess and have far more things to worry about.
Mind you, every time United lose I feel shitty and great when we win but I'm not gonna go crazy about it. In any case I even condone myself in the sense it happens, why worry so much about the things you cant change.
But its football, you can tell yourself 100 times I'm not watching anymore of football when your team loses but it never happens and I get angry or disappointed still. And I still change channels when it's a sqeuaky bum time game, crazy but cant help it. :D
Saying all that to lose like that leaves a mark however you normally deal with defeats. That kind of defeats stuck for life. Or until we win the league or batter them similary one day or both. If it happens at all, I mean the battering.
 
Slevs said:
1- Of course it was just a freak result. Our form since the end of the world cup has been something ridiculous. Bluffers don't give you that long consistent good form.
2- No. Martinez is the real deal, Varane is back to fitness, Malacia is a very good squad option. Fred is only starting because Eriksen is injured.
Can you imagine if the same game was played by Lindelof, Maguire, and Alex Telles for example? Would've ended in double digits.
3- Same as above.
4- No, because they have more chances to do this in the beginning of the season and didn't.
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Of course it wasn't. It's not like we had two sent off or they had a bunch of long range shots that deflected in off our players. You can go on all you like about second balls falling to them etc. But that only happened because after the 2nd goal, our defenders were caught on their heels too often. Look at Salah's second goal. Lazy attempt to clear by Shaw, which only fell to Salah because McTominay and another player were chilling behind Salah. They were not even goalside.

The hope is that this was a freak performance from us. If we defend exactly like we did in the second half against a half-decent team, we'll get pretty much the same score. And that's what has happened in the past as other posters are pointing out. It's got nothing to do with the manager or tactics. At the top level, a team playing at 100% will wipe the floor with a team of similar quality that's playing at 90%.
 
I said earlier on this forum. The reality will hit United and Ten Hag really hard. When Ten Hag rate the win of Carabao cup so high and the win over Barcelona.

Link to my post:
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/post-match-vs-nottingham-forest.475387/post-30083027

But to be honest i expect a loss will come. But not that really big loss like 7-0. Things just went Liverpool way in second half.


First i am a United fan. But to be a writer i try to be objective as possible. Taking off my United glass.


So the argument is:
+ How strong were the level of Carabao cup? When both Manchester City and Liverpool lined up with second strings and squad players and went out of the tournament.

+ I see Barcelona were and is on top of the league in La liga. But did you Pedri and Gavi were playing in the second match against United? And do we not think it will affect Barca performances in some way?

Ten Hag and United players were high up after the cup win. But Liverpool were close back to the max level. A team with really dangerous counter weapon.

So as attacking team at that Anfield match United max level is not up to Liverpool. And it's a big reason why i think United max level has been reduced. Why?


+ Playing with Weghorst as a cam and nr.10 position. As a team it will reduce United max level when it come to attack.
And i thought and comment about Weghorst performances in many weeks. And shall i be really honest is.
Weghorst is worst than Fellaini in that supporting nr.10 cam role. I would pick Fellaini over Weghorst any day of the week for the nr.10 role. Why?
- Fellaini was quicker and more explosive in the first metres
- Fellaini was better in the air the Weghorst
- better to keep the ball with his back agains opponent goal

And Ten Hag keep playing Weghorst in the nr.10 and keep sub him in second half. I think Ten and his staff is a bit stubborn here.

Against Liverpool Jadon Sancho was on the bench. Not sure how much fit he was. And Garnacho was on the bench too. I would use one of this for speed and counter attack ability compare to Weghorst height.
Maybe Ten Hag Weghorst starting him because of the lacking of air ability in the United XI.
With using Weghorst as a nr.10. Then Ten Hag has to switch Bruno to his second best positon as RW and LW.

And with the lacking of top speed in Weghorst. But top speed in the first metres/explosiveness and over long distance. It will affect the max fast combination football = here i mean it will reduce United max level as attacking team. Example a fully fit Sancho or Martial will lift the level of United attacking a lot higher. And with this level getting reduce and you facing a Liverpool get theirs best players back and they close to finding theirs top form back. The end result of that. It was in favour of Liverpool.

And back to Weghorst. He has only score 1 goal in 14 matches. United really need Martial back or a fully fit Jadon Sancho for Weghorst. If Ten hag keep starting Weghorst. It may work against teams United shall dominate like West Ham and middle table team and lower.

But against a high level Liverpool or City. It will be big big chance Unite and Ten will get a reality check.


Sum up how to define your and your team level :
+ Your own and team max level & Day match form
+ Your opponent team max level & Day match form
+ For cup = the level and quality of the cup. It is here Ten Hag define and rate United players really high after winning the cup

And if the confidence is not in common with the true level of the competition and reality. Like a top level Liverpool against Carabao cup opponent teams. Then soon or later United will get a reality check.


The positive is. This is Ten Hag first season. And the 7-0 loss match was about achieving top 4 and champion league next season. With a weekend where both Spurs and Newcastle lost. Not a match about premier league title. Even with a win against Liverpool. United this year. As a team, collective not as consistent dominate like Arsenal and City.
In other words. It's better to get a reality check this season than next season where United shall be closer to the league title. After strenghten the team in this summer.

So again. You have to rate and the quality and level of the cup and tournament you are joining in. It's big different between to be best of the best and to be best against the second best teams. Then you can lead your players with wrong confidence, which is not in common with the reality.
 
Four days on and still rattles me we didn't think damage limitation at 3-0,at least then we don't suffer an annihilation that stands out in the Premier League record books
 
I'm in the, "deeply disappointed, but not too bothered/worried" camp.
We've clearly made a LOT of progress this season, that can't be just a purple patch, ETH is definitely an exceptional manager and the right man for the job. The way we lost our composure in the 2nd half is more of an anomaly rather than the norm, it's also good information for ETH that now he's seen this squad's bottom level.
I think we'll be fine, the reason I think that is the same reason we lost 7-0 in the first place, the players don't care as much about the rivalry as we do. They'll get over it, a win tonight should help. Also, now that we're effectively out of the title race with a bit of breathing room and a relatively comfortable run in, we should be fine for top 4, that and the League cup is already a successful season, when you consider the improvement on the pitch, we'd have taken that before the start of the season.
If we can win another cup, it's going to be a massively successful season.
 
As others have said, not really that bothered by the result. It was comical. Everything Liverpool touched went in and we were kamakazi. Absolute freak result and perhaps one that we were due. I think we had started to believe our own hype and get overconfident. A heavy bump back down to earth won't hurt us.

I don't worry about it because EtH is the right man for United and I think the current squad will bounce back from this just fine. Looking forward to tonights game.
 
I’ve still not recovered from this trauma. Anyone else ? Or is it just me?
 
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