[ItsEssexRob]

Maybe it wasn't all Moyes fault last year...

That was obvious to everyone except United fans. Still the 'This squad won the title last season' lines turned up

 

[Sylar]

Can a loss be a win Only if we end up getting the signings that everybody not officially associated with the club knows we need and have always said (and well those officially associated probably know but arent saying in public)

Much like Arsenals loss at home last season to Villa, before the money was spent on Ozil, you hope for something similar for United.

 

[kps88]

Let's hold off those Moyes comparisons. He had an entire season to try and improve things and failed; LVG has had one game. Let's see what our reaction is like.

 

[Hoof the ball]

Regarding the system

I don't believe there's necessarily an issue with the system itself. I have read a fair amount from Cafe posters about the system leading to a lack of penetration and chances. I don't believe that to be the case. The issue, of course, is related to the personnel, the lack of either natural habit in this system and possibly a lack of ability to perform to the system's demands...... but that doesn't mean the system is wrong and should be abandoned. A lot is made about the build up being slow, as if somehow that was a negative thing in itself, but that just shows a distinct lack of understanding of the philosophy Van Gaal is trying to communicate. Stretching teams often requires a slow buildup; that isn't to say that the passing itself must be slow, but patience must present in the play. Switching from right to left, left to right, sideways and back, it is created to open up space in the middle for the central players to exploit. I found it highly encouraging, initially, that we maintained 60% and more possession throughout the first half; we need to learn to be more comfortable in possession because that breeds confidence and patience, to which end results in players habitually making the right passing choices during the game.

But as we understand, even a perfect system, without the personnel, performs imperfectly, so we must exercise patience and have some faith that the long term learning process is more important than the immediate success.

 

[Silverman]

The one thing I cannot stand is losing the first game, especially then having to watch teams like Arsenal kicking off now and them probably gonna trounce Palace. I even rage quit if I lose my first league game on Fifa. No Joke.

 

[Rezyuz]

What wingers ? The same wingers who have done feck all for us in the last 2 or even 3 years in systems that relied on them ?

I support every system that makes us less dependent on the attacking contribution of Nani, Young and Valencia as much as possible, especially if it is set up to make the best out of our players that do perform like Rooney and RVP.

You don't get the problem with wingers at Man United do you?

Know the difference between Man United wingers and Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich etc wingers?

Our wingers are located on the half line with a handful of defensive tasks and need to sprint over the entire wing over and over again. When they start their action and beat their opponent they achieved 10m terrain profit and still got 30m+ to go to the goal having to beat 2-3 more defenders.

At other clubs the wingers are just wide strikers who are always offensively positioned able to counter, and beat a defender and go at the goal directly. Nani for example repeatedly beat his opponent today, just having to meet 2 more defenders along the way. The only option? Cross or make a risky pass. Same for Januzaj. Both never got into a 1v1 situation as thats basically what happens in a 442 or 352 system.

Can you imagine the effort it takes for Januzaj to pick up the ball at the midline and having to dribble past 2-3 defenders to even get near the penalty box for an entire game? This is the sacrifice you make by putting in 2 strikers. You feck over your wingers, and make them defensive workhorses that have to beat the world in order to do anything offensive.

 

[kouroux]

That was obvious to everyone except United fans. Still the 'This squad won the title last season' lines turned up

So all those Utd fans who have been screaming for months for the club to bring new players, didn't really think the squad needed some improvement alongside Moyes' sacking ?

 

[Oo0AahCantona]

The squad isn't fit for purpose. This could have been a fresh start for United but it's been totally undermined by another incompetent summer in the transfer market. Injuries were a factor, but there's still no excuse for the shambolic state of that starting 11 today. Young players playing out of position, no options, it's just not good enough. We're 3-4 players short in key areas, it's that simple, and if we don't redress the lack of balance and quality then we don't deserve top 4.

Such a Key point, often missed out. Ofcourse we want to get top 4, ofcourse we hope we will, But lets be honest, feck off do we deserve it.

 

[ItsEssexRob]

So all those Utd fans who have been screaming for months for the club to bring new players, didn't really think the squad needed some improvement alongside Moyes' sacking ?

Yeah some did, but there was a large group who thought Moyes was the only thing to blame and making fun of his home record, and that they wouldn't happen under a top manager. Certain players were also getting away with poor performances.

 

[Getsme]

That was obvious to everyone except United fans. Still the 'This squad won the title last season' lines turned up

Or Moyes has done more damage than we first thought, not only on the pitch last season, but during last summers transfer window.
I'm not saying the players are blame free, they clearly aren't, however the failure by the Club to identify targets last summer is now beginning to show.

 

[sullydnl]

You don't get the problem with wingers at Man United do you?

Know the difference between Man United wingers and Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich etc wingers?

Our wingers are located on the half line with a handful of defensive tasks and need to sprint over the entire wing over and over again. When they start their action and beat their opponent they achieved 10m terrain profit and still got 30m+ to go to the goal having to beat 2-3 more defenders.

At other clubs the wingers are just wide strikers who are always offensively positioned able to counter, and beat a defender and go at the goal directly. Nani for example repeatedly beat his opponent today, just having to meet 2 more defenders along the way. The only option? Cross or make a risky pass. Same for Januzaj. Both never got into a 1v1 situation as thats basically what happens in a 442 or 352 system.

Can you imagine the effort it takes for Januzaj to pick up the ball at the midline and having to dribble past 2-3 defenders to even get near the penalty box for an entire game? This is the sacrifice you make by putting in 2 strikers. You feck over your wingers, and make them defensive workhorses that have to beat the world in order to do anything offensive.

The main difference is the fact that most of our wingers (Young, Valencia, Nani) are supremely ordinary players while the wingers at the likes of Bayern/Real (Bale, Ronaldo, Di Maria, Robben, Ribery) are actually very good footballers.

We can reshape our system all we want but that basic fact isn't going to change

 

[Hoof the ball]

You don't get the problem with wingers at Man United do you?

Know the difference between Man United wingers and Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich etc wingers?

Our wingers are located on the half line with a handful of defensive tasks and need to sprint over the entire wing over and over again. When they start their action and beat their opponent they achieved 10m terrain profit and still got 30m+ to go to the goal having to beat 2-3 more defenders.

At other clubs the wingers are just wide strikers who are always offensively positioned able to counter, and beat a defender and go at the goal directly. Nani for example repeatedly beat his opponent today, just having to meet 2 more defenders along the way. The only option? Cross or make a risky pass. Same for Januzaj. Both never got into a 1v1 situation as thats basically what happens in a 442 or 352 system.

Can you imagine the effort it takes for Januzaj to pick up the ball at the midline and having to dribble past 2-3 defenders to even get near the penalty box for an entire game? This is the sacrifice you make by putting in 2 strikers. You feck over your wingers, and make them defensive workhorses that have to beat the world in order to do anything offensive.

Finally, someone with some tactical understanding who understands the difference between those definitions!

 

[Hoof the ball]

It's like on BT Sport, everyone kept harping about it being a 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 but it was no such thing...... defensively, yes, it was a 4-4-1-1 maybe, but as soon as we had possession, Nani and Janu were pushed up very wide and high like wide forward's. That distinction must be made...

 

[amolbhatia50k]

It's a comforting narrative, kidding ourselves that Moyes took a well oiled machine, stacked full of talent, and somehow wrecked it.

The thing is, this has been coming for years. The signs of decline were obvious, even when we last won the league. The squad is nowhere near good enough and no manager can polish a turd. Not even Louis Van Gaal.

I didn't mean to imply that narrative .

My narrative if were to form one would be the following: Saf took his eye of the ball and let a hell of a lot of issues creep into this team, leaving a more and more unbalanced and individualistic over time.

Those issues were truly exposed last season and maybe even accentuated due to hiring a manager not fit for the level. As a result of him clearly not being the man to fix said issues, the damage causes to the confidence of the side by said exposure of issues was absolutely huge.

Now we've got a new manager but the issues that go back to safs time still exist as do the damage caused by the nature of their exposure from moyes' season. He's probably the right man to fix the problem unlike his predecessor but last season does have its impacts even thought it's maybe not the source of the problem itself.

 

[kouroux]

Yeah some did, but there was a large group who thought Moyes was the only thing to blame and making fun of his home record, and that they wouldn't happen under a top manager. Certain players were also getting away with poor performances.

Nah I would strongly disagree with this, we've been saying for years we needed some quality signing in areas of need.

 

[Oo0AahCantona]

The squad is not threadbare. For a team that aren't competing in Europe it is fine in terms of numbers.

Interested to see from a opposition fans perspective, how do you genuinely think we've bought so far this summer, general impression of the squad, and would you be surprised to see a top quality transfer happen before the end of the window?

 

[ItsEssexRob]

Or Moyes has done more damage than we first thought, not only on the pitch last season, but during last summers transfer window.
I'm not saying the players are blame free, they clearly aren't, however the failure by the Club to identify targets last summer is now beginning to show.

This is the problem though, a lot of people are always looking for reasons for things that aren;t always there.

Some of the players haven't been playing well simply because they have not been playing well, not just because of positions. SAF left such a skewed image of the squad it has been near impossible for some people to actually gauge the level it is at.

Shaw and Herrera would probably be there with Moyes at the helm still so they are kind of moot, right now the player you most need is CB, because that defence is still very very poor for a top team and there is zero organization even with Evans there.

The problem is and also the reason successful clubs end up going Liverpools way is because following a period of unprecedented success with more success is almost impossible when the key factor is removed. You end up in an endless cycle of panic buys, managerial changes, and false dawns.

A manager has to stay there regardless of results, and mould a team, not lurching from one top manager to another like we did. We could do it because of our financial power. United can't. I hate to say it but the first step back to the top is from the very very top, and I can;t see it from the current owners.

 

[ItsEssexRob]

Nah I would strongly disagree with this, we've been saying for years we needed some quality signing in areas of need.

Yes, but its always the same 'we need a cm' and recently ' a cb'

However there are still those who will claim the players there e.g Smalling, Jones, Evans etc are good enough when they clearly are not.

There are still people who believe the lacklustre performances of certain players last season and today (Mata, Rooney, Kagawa,RVP) is purely down to positioning.

I do actually believe Vidal would be a massive coup for you, but I feel the price is so high for a player of his age.

Then again maybe a little short termism would be handy for United right now.

 

[ItsEssexRob]

Interested to see from a opposition fans perspective, how do you genuinely think we've bought so far this summer, general impression of the squad, and would you be surprised to see a top quality transfer happen before the end of the window?

You've bought ok long term thinking, but both are not players that are going to look amazing straight away(notice the criticism already of Herrera), both also were probably earmarked under Moyes era, LVG just approved them.

Both were slightly overpriced, but at least achievable.

I would just be concerned that if the club isn;t willing to spend much then you are going to have trouble buying two quality players in the positions you really need.

 

[Sultan]

I thought the biggest issue today was distribution from the back. Smalling is really awful on the ball. Rafael, Shaw, Welbeck and Valencia all out injured for today's game was a massive factor leaving the team without any real pace.

Desperately need to find some defenders to replace Rio and Vidic, and a another world class midfielder.

 

[ItsEssexRob]

I actually think Valencia being out is a bit of a problem. He is more useful than Nani and does a bit more than he is given credit for.

How long are Welbeck and Valencia out for?

 

[Firstouch20]

Seems like nothing has changed. Losing at Old Trafford, disjointed team cohesion, manager pandering to Rooney and bringing on Fellaini as a last ditch attempt to salvage the game. Disappointed with Van Gaal, i expected him to really shake things up this season.

 

[Rory 7]

This is the problem though, a lot of people are always looking for reasons for things that aren;t always there.

Some of the players haven't been playing well simply because they have not been playing well, not just because of positions. SAF left such a skewed image of the squad it has been near impossible for some people to actually gauge the level it is at.

Shaw and Herrera would probably be there with Moyes at the helm still so they are kind of moot, right now the player you most need is CB, because that defence is still very very poor for a top team and there is zero organization even with Evans there.

The problem is and also the reason successful clubs end up going Liverpools way is because following a period of unprecedented success with more success is almost impossible when the key factor is removed. You end up in an endless cycle of panic buys, managerial changes, and false dawns.

A manager has to stay there regardless of results, and mould a team, not lurching from one top manager to another like we did. We could do it because of our financial power. United can't. I hate to say it but the first step back to the top is from the very very top, and I can;t see it from the current owners.

Good post

 

[rcoobc]

Moyes took a while to turn a winning team into a losing one.

LVG will take a while to turn a losing team into a winning one.

 

[united_99]

We'll be fine and we have the right manager to sort things out. It will take a bit of time, of course. But we need at least 1 quality cm, can't rely on Fletcher/Fellaini/Cleverley with Carrick getting old and injury prone AND a good injury-free cb this window. A quick and technically good winger with brain is also needed, edpecially when Welbeck has a tendency to get injured.
We also need to sell players quickly, no need playing some of them here or there if they are not part of the plan. Rather play players regularly instead who we are planning to be here.

 

[Oo0AahCantona]

We'll be fine and we have the right manager to sort things out. It will take a bit of time, of course. But we need at least 1 quality cm, can't rely on Fletcher/Fellaini/Cleverley with Carrick getting old and injury prone AND a good injury-free cb this window. A quick and technically good winger with brain is also needed, edpecially when Welbeck has a tendency to get injured.
We also need to sell players quickly, no need playing some of them here or there if they are not part of the plan. Rather play players regularly instead who we are planning to be here.

So as of this second we wont be fine then. We are a minimum of 2 absolutely top players away from being fine for a club of our status.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

I thought the biggest issue today was distribution from the back. Smalling is really awful on the ball. Rafael, Shaw, Welbeck and Valencia all out injured for today's game was a massive factor leaving the team without any real pace.

Desperately need to find some defenders to replace Rio and Vidic, and a another world class midfielder.

David May said on MUTV earlier that we need a class CB who can come out with the ball, so it gets to the midfield quickers.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Seems like nothing has changed. Losing at Old Trafford, disjointed team cohesion, manager pandering to Rooney and bringing on Fellaini as a last ditch attempt to salvage the game. Disappointed with Van Gaal, i expected him to really shake things up this season.

I think he is being hamstrung with RVP, Welbeck and James Wilson being available. They could have made a big difference in this game. I would have brought Kagawa on at some point. Jesse's injury didn't help. Using a sub that early. Glad Adnan got on, he was very good.

 

[Sultan]

David May said on MUTV earlier that we need a class CB who can come out with the ball, so it gets to the midfield quickers.

I've just come back from the game. It's just so obvious a flaw in the team.

 

[Sixpence]

Clueless performances. We need top players to turn this around. Woodward will be out of a job in 2 weeks if it doesn't happen.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

I've just come back from the game. It's just so obvious a flaw in the team.

If the defence can't do a simple thing like pass the ball onto the midfield it is a major problem. They then either pass it wide and bypass the midfield or hoof it.

 

[kouroux]

Yes, but its always the same 'we need a cm' and recently ' a cb'

However there are still those who will claim the players there e.g Smalling, Jones, Evans etc are good enough when they clearly are not.

There are still people who believe the lacklustre performances of certain players last season and today (Mata, Rooney, Kagawa,RVP) is purely down to positioning.

I do actually believe Vidal would be a massive coup for you, but I feel the price is so high for a player of his age.

Then again maybe a little short termism would be handy for United right now.

This I definitely agree with, Vidal isn't that old so he'd still play for several seasons for us. Smalling, Jones and Evans have their qualities and their bad sides, they're still young but nowhere near ready to assume the full responsibility of the defense without a more mature player next to them.

 

[SoCross]

Fellaini coming on was so pointless. I feel sorry for him but he contributed nothing and took away any dynamism we had with Herrera.

Blackett did decently for me except he was partly at fault for that quick freekick they too which led to the second goal - he gave them the ball back. But overall, decent debut and I wouldn't mind seeing him get more starts.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Fellaini coming on was so pointless. I feel sorry for him but he contributed nothing and took away any dynamism we had with Herrera.

Blackett did decently for me except he was partly at fault for that quick freekick they too which led to the second goal - he gave them the ball back. But overall, decent debut and I wouldn't mind seeing him get more starts.

Poor Tyler, he was the least experienced of an inexperienced backline. They need some real experience in there.

 

[antsmithmk]

Seems like nothing has changed. Losing at Old Trafford, disjointed team cohesion, manager pandering to Rooney and bringing on Fellaini as a last ditch attempt to salvage the game. Disappointed with Van Gaal, i expected him to really shake things up this season.

Got to be given the time surely?!

We had 6-7 key players absent today.

 

[bruiser]

Let's hope the myth about van Gaal being a master tactician is recognised for what it is: wishful thinking. He's a decent manager, if a little past his prime. Playing Ashley Young at the back was a disaster waiting to happen. His subs were a little surprising and costly. Even the better managers make stupid mistakes at times. What matters in the longer term is whether he learns from them.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Got to be given the time surely?!

We had 6-7 key players absent today.

Some of the players missing are part of the probelem. Players who are always injured.

 

[Walrus]

I know he has already moved, but I think Medel would have been a great buy. Cover for both CB and CM, good on the ball, a leader, comfortable on the ball.
And only cost £10m.

 

[bruiser]

Or Moyes has done more damage than we first thought, not only on the pitch last season, but during last summers transfer window.
I'm not saying the players are blame free, they clearly aren't, however the failure by the Club to identify targets last summer is now beginning to show.

I know some will take this as heresy, but the rot started when SAF was in charge. If anything, SAF did more damage than anyone first thought. It's going to take a while to rebuild the squad and reclimb the pedestal.

 

[bishblaize]

I know some will take this as heresy, but the rot started when SAF was in charge. If anything, SAF did more damage than anyone first thought.

Care to expand?