Roberto Carlos was not better than Marcelo defensively at all and personally I think Marcelo has surpassed Carlos offensively bar Carlos' free kicks.
Players you don't rate as highly as others
- Thread starter Joga Bonito
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I think Santamaria is the better man-marker to keep up with strong or pacey forwards. Also much better in a high line defense and all kinds of unsual formations / gung-ho sides. You have to remember you are comparing the CB of probably the most attacking club side ever (7:3 in a European Cup final wtf!?) against a CB of the most defensive side since 80s Serie A. Everyone in that Atletico side is defending like their lives depend on it. I get the impression that Cholo rather wants a boring 0-0 than an exciting 4-3 win whenever I watch Atletico league games
I have heard of him, but I am not a know it all expert on German football I'm afraid, can only do my own research and talk to people who have seen him play. Will do that when I have the chance, to give a more rounded information on what older fans think of him. I can certainly say he does not have the same status as the other Germany legends like Netzer or Overath.
Yep he gets over rated in drafts but a good defender, Thiago Silva is the one that gets over rated.
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Marcelo?!
out of your goddamn minds.
out of your goddamn minds.How would you compare him and R. Carlos defensively?Marcelo?!
Cheers mate, looking forward to hearing what you find out about him.
That's a fair point, although by the same token we're often so slow to give current day defenders much leeway on account of the conditions they face, namely the fast pace of the modern game, more stringent refereeing, and in the case of full backs at least their increased responsibility to support the attack.
Marcelo will probably leave more gaps when we lose the ball but that's normal as he is a way more attacking LB than RC was, even though he himself was coming up a lot aswell. For me, as a player, Marcelo has probably surpassed RC by now. He's a big part of our successes these last couple years. I don't have the best memory for football and probably forgot most of the great performances RC had for us though. Even then, calling him a poor man's Roberto Carlos is just ridiculous. Even if you don't rate him as high, he can't be that far off surely?
@Don Alfredo speaking of germans, you know anything about Bernard Klodt? When i was doing a compilation for Seeler he caught my eye, looked class above alongside Seeler
I reckon any of the old school CBs would do well in a modern game as long as there's no high line. Very few of modern CBs will do well in a WM. The olden CBs are more complete defenders than the modern ones imo.
Carlos has scored probably twice as many goals as Marcelo.i know it has FKs but still a significant attacking difference. Does Marcelo have higher assist rate? I can't find any stats.
I have really no idea about their stats, sorry.
I am honest this is the first time I have heard of him. Still it might be a case of a club legend flying under the radar because of no key role in the NT. I had a quick glance at his body of work and he might have a shot at second best german attacker of the 50s after Schafer. Still with him being a 50s player, him being a Schalke player and you saying there is actual video evidence of him playing, we might be able to give him the rating he deserves because I bet there will be some very solid sources.
Will have to ask my grandpa about him, he grew up in the same area and might even have seen him play live. However, he is a big Dortmund fan and maybe he talks him down just because of rivalry things
Btw I‘m sorry for derailing the thread
I think that's true as he was basically done by 27. That said, I reckon his peak is underestimated on here. Rarely gets called up for drafts, yet his form from around 1995-2003 is on par with any striker not named Ronaldo. His link-up play was better than the majority of centre-forwards of the 90s era. He basically had five consecutive seasons of scoring 30 goals a year, often playing in the hole and sometimes out wide.
MADNESS, BLASPHEMY, HERESY AND JAYWALKING!
BURN THE WITCH!!!!!
Literally every great defender of the era went on record saying Ronaldo was the best player they ever faced, and that playing against him was torture. It wasn't a matter of stopping him, it was a matter of not getting humiliated
I don't deny that but he has been stopped in the past. I'm pretty sure Nesta played much better against him on other occasions than in that incident. Even Maradona is considered stoppable with a sufficiently good DM or say Matthaus but with Ronaldo up against Baresi the assumption still tends to be Ronaldo will definitely score which is overrating him when Baresi would be considered to be able to stop Gerd Muller, MVB or Romario.
It's a weird point you're making. Nobody is going to score in literally every game. Put (21 yo)Ronaldo in the real madrid or barcelona sides of the last decade and he'd likely have put up messi/cristiano's numbers
The fact that Thuram, Nesta, Costacurta, Maldini, Desailly, Cannavaro have all gone on record mentioning how stopping him was next to impossible and required an incredible defensive effort by the whole team says it all
If you're talking about a defender stopping him 1on1? Chances are 1 in 100
R9 would have Messi and CR7 figures in Barca and Real sides of today. My point may seem weird but in the context of draft games it does (at least from my perspective) make sense.
I am with you on this.. Ronaldo would put Messi and Cristiano numbers but in a draft context I feel he’s above almost anyone else in goal scoring context
The problem is there is this prejudice that strikers with dribbling and pace are more likely to score than the ones without those abilities. Gerd Muller didn't need twenty stepovers before he scored another crucial goal, Ferenc Puskas didn't need to be fast to absolutely destroy the European competition. Those two are better goalscorers than Ronaldo, but they are seen as less likely to score / less dangerous.
Yeah and i don't blame voters. The story is Gerd Muller would do nothing if he doesn't get service.. I have cut of the service so Muller won't score.. In reality football doesn't work that way but very difficult to bring it to a draft game
How do you all think Cristiano and Messi will do against the caliber of defenders Ronaldo faced?
It depends on context. Do they still have prime Xaviesta or Kroos-Modric feeding them? It is no coincidence that both won multiple Ballon D‘Ors and Champions Leagues mostly when they had the definitive best midfield in the world behind them, and that their national team form is considerably weaker.
I think Cristiano of 2012 would still be great against those Serie A defenders, his CF version of the last few years not so much. Messi with the right supporting cast would destroy every defender, even Nesta etc. Still very dependant on team setup, much more than other GOATs I believe.
I'm glad it's not just me
Marcelo has surpassed Bobby's attacking contribution for me. As you mentioned he's more prominent figure in your success lately compared to Carlos. When it comes to being more balanced and defensively more astute, RC is easily better.
Out of the two and especially given the international success Roberto Carlos is the better defender, would probably put him in a tier above IMO. Poor mans RC is a stretch of course but I'd always rather have RC regardless of whether it is flat back 4 or 3-5-2.
as for the thread:
I don't really rate that high Thiago Silva, Ramos, Jairzinho, Pep, Suurbier, etc among others.
On the flip side I do rate Ricky Carvalho, Zico, Cruyff, Rensenbrink, Campbell, Santamaria, Makelele more than most people from what I've seen lately.
Cryuff is the one GOAT who doesn't receive much appreciation and is often perceived as a square peg in round hole.
Not really fond of purple patch players like Jairzinho for example from the ones mentioned, considering most of his fame as an elite wide forward came in one tournament.
Think @antohan made a point on his domestic form a while ago and his level was significantly lower to what he shown in that WC.
I don't really rate that high Thiago Silva, Ramos, Jairzinho, Pep, Suurbier, etc among others.
On the flip side I do rate Ricky Carvalho, Zico, Cruyff, Rensenbrink, Campbell, Santamaria, Makelele more than most people from what I've seen lately.
Cryuff is the one GOAT who doesn't receive much appreciation and is often perceived as a square peg in round hole.
Not really fond of purple patch players like Jairzinho for example from the ones mentioned, considering most of his fame as an elite wide forward came in one tournament.
Think @antohan made a point on his domestic form a while ago and his level was significantly lower to what he shown in that WC.
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Agree with this. He seems somewhat underrated on this forum for some reason. Perhaps too much thought is given on how he would fit into a system or who he plays with. IMO he was such a good player that he could play multiple roles without too much trouble.
He seems to get a bit more appreciation recently, which is obviously great. I'm just glad that I managed to find his game against Bayern recently, which almost got him a Blokhin-esque Ballon d'Or (both performed incredibly against the all-conquering Beckenbauer's Bayern in the Super Cup but Rensenbrink came a bit short in the voting and finished as a runner up).
Yeah, it was anto — I think his wording was not ideal and his post caused great controversy but I generally agreed with him.
Haven't researched anywhere near what is required for this but Kaiser's Bayern seems pretty overrated to me at the club level. Have been more impressed with the Gladback team of the same time.
Anto in a nutshell.
1000 ways to appreciate Luis Enrique but he has to call him 'Keano with goals' on a United forum. Man got real kicks from stuff like that.
They definitely come short when you compare them to the true greats of club football like Di Stefano's Madrid, Pep's Barca, Sacchi's Milan — and even almost contemporary Cruyff's Ajax, but they still were the best side of that time who had won every domestic and European trophy; and had the players like Kaiser himself, Müller, Maier, Breitner etc.
Gladbach were brilliant as well — and I prefer their style of play, personally, but historically Bayern is still on top for that decade. They were a weird side, I remember watching one of their games against Everton and 90% of crosses into their box ended up as huge goalscoring chances, it was like they weren't even aware of the existence of crossing and aerial game (but they played some breathtaking attacking football at the same time).
Yes Gladbach of the 70s is considered to be the best German club side ever, despite 0 European Cups compared to Bayern‘s 3 in the same era.
The West German sides fell short against English teams a few times in that era - thinking also of Villa and Liverpool ousting Bayern - for a failure to deal with a more direct style of play.
Same here. Not seen anywhere near enough of both to make an authoritative statement like Keano with goals
but show me a 70s Gladbach game ahead of a 70s Bayern one any day of the week. Far more entertaining.Demetrio Albertini. I never liked his passing choices, too many telegraphed long passes when it wasn't the best option and too many safe passes when an opening between lines was available. It was rare to see him really control a midfield battle and often i would see Milan utterly struggle creatively until/unless Savicevic played, and the passing game and service to the forwards immediately improve as soon as Boban came on as a midfield sub. I guess 3 foreigner rule and being less versatile plus better defensively kept him in front of the Croatian, but i always thought that was a poor choice. He did get a lot better towards the end of the 90s, but by then Pirlo was coming onto the scene and his days were numbered.
Sergei Aleinikov. Probably not a big enough name/highly rated enough to be that relevant to drafts, but he could easily be interepreted as the premier ussr midfielder of the '80s due to his number of caps and longer run in the NT than any other, for me he was a fine player, but not among the more talented ones. Seen as mister dependable, the one you could rely on to be the metronomic, positionally sensible, defensively capable holding centre midfielder, when most of the other NT midfielders were more obviously creative and attacking. I never really saw him being any better defensively than most others though, he was hardly Voronin in defensive anticipation, too slow and polite\cautious in tackling and never looked up to it when filling in at CB. Also benefited from some bad luck befalling other more talented midfielders like Vitali Daraselia dying in a car crash, Khoren Oganesyan getting banned on-as far as i know never actually proven-match-fixing charges and Cherenkov's mental health issues possibly being a big factor why lobanovsky rarely picked him for any midfield role after 83.
Sergei Aleinikov. Probably not a big enough name/highly rated enough to be that relevant to drafts, but he could easily be interepreted as the premier ussr midfielder of the '80s due to his number of caps and longer run in the NT than any other, for me he was a fine player, but not among the more talented ones. Seen as mister dependable, the one you could rely on to be the metronomic, positionally sensible, defensively capable holding centre midfielder, when most of the other NT midfielders were more obviously creative and attacking. I never really saw him being any better defensively than most others though, he was hardly Voronin in defensive anticipation, too slow and polite\cautious in tackling and never looked up to it when filling in at CB. Also benefited from some bad luck befalling other more talented midfielders like Vitali Daraselia dying in a car crash, Khoren Oganesyan getting banned on-as far as i know never actually proven-match-fixing charges and Cherenkov's mental health issues possibly being a big factor why lobanovsky rarely picked him for any midfield role after 83.
Some of the Jairzinho comments have surprised me. @harms I have never heard him mentioned in the same breath as Garrincha, definitely not in real life and not even on here that I remember. Even the first draft I was in, the Americas Draft Garrincha was the unstoppable MVP of the entire draft and I don't even remember what manager picked Jairzinho. He definitely wasn't given half the impact as Garrincha in my memory. Maybe this was from before my time?
There were some comments like that a way back and most people agreed, which really surprised me — but I can't find it as I don't even remotely remember when they took place.
Recently it was my game vs Tuppet, where Jairzinho was supposedly the best winger out of Finney, Gento, him and Giggs, and anto stated his infamous take on the matter. I'd probably have him as the worst of that group, although it's a very close call.
Although it was a game and we all are prone to genuinely overrating and overselling our players to an extent.
The players I don't know.
Otherwise, I'd say players like Djalma Santos, Fachetti, Bozsik, Neeskens, Van Hanegem, Elkjaer, Lerby.
On the other hand, I overrate a lot of players
Otherwise, I'd say players like Djalma Santos, Fachetti, Bozsik, Neeskens, Van Hanegem, Elkjaer, Lerby.
On the other hand, I overrate a lot of players
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WvH and Lerby are good calls. In fact that entire Danish Dynamites team gets a lot of romanticism.