Players have clearly not downed tools.

Fortitude said:
Running around aimlessly is not something you're ever going to see. Give them an actual system to run in, or a planned directive in collective pressing, and then assess if they're not willing to run themselves into the ground. It's only mad men like Robbie Savage or Genaro Gattuso who run around, by themselves, without their teams collectively running with them. Even Ji-Sung Park didn't do that; once he ran, his full-back assisted and so did the midfielder on his inside - there was always a plan and a reason to exert that energy. We have no phases of play in pressing; our players don't actually know when to give maximum exertion; it also looks really, really amateur and unprofessional to run by yourself because then you just leave gaping holes to be played into, so you're not going to see it often. Obviously, City being masters of the bait and switch, you simply don't run around brainlessly against them because it plays into their hands.
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Who said anything about running around aimlessly, the team clearly haven’t downed tools but they’re not covering themselves in glory with their effort levels either.
 
Roboc7 said:
Who said anything about running around aimlessly, the team clearly haven’t downed tools but they’re not covering themselves in glory with their effort levels either.
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You want them to 'work harder' against City, how exactly, without an actual plan or collective press? Which suggests aimless running would appease because it would look like effort.
 
tjb said:
Some of it is lack of quality due to injuries, but a lot of it is tactical. Opposition players are quicker to balls than us, not because they are fitter, but because they are in better positions to do so. You can't watch Bruno, Hojlund, Garnacho and Mount harrying around the pitch and think its lack of effort.
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I agree but all it takes is 1 or 2 midfielders/attackers half-assing the press to make it extremely easy for the opponent to play around it. If Rashford, Sancho or McTominay (at times) doesn't feel like running then the rest of the players' effort is for nothing. The man they're supposed to cover will be open and for the most part even the worst players on the worst PL teams can play a pass to an uncovered player.
 
Fortitude said:
You want them to 'work harder' against City, how exactly, without an actual plan or collective press? Which suggests aimless running would appease because it would look like effort.
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If you’re suggesting players are genuinely giving their all this season, it’s a pretty damning inditement of the coaching…

Would be odd to watch this Utd side and then be both ETH in, yet simultaneously suggesting that the players are following his tactics with their all.
 
Rhyme Animal said:
Some of them have clearly begun to lose faith with the coach, that’s obvious and natural.

We all know this process, we know it well, we’ve seen it time and time again.

He won’t be here next season.

We know it, and the players know it.

Whether they’ve wilfully ‘downed tools’ or just lost faith, it doesn’t really matter. The process has clearly begun and is very unlikely to reverse itself.
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I think you are wrong this time around. If we scrape results and don’t get into the champions league spots all season, even then I wouldn’t sack Ten Hag,

I think if there is acceptance in the board, staff and players that ETH will be backed, then his principles will flow through on the pitch better. No better way to do this than stick with him during a tough period, and poor results, and then use his cue to remove some toxic elements in the club.

the only way United turn this malaise around is if ETH keeps his job for 4-5 years (regardless of results) before being sacked if results aren’t good enough. Players should be scared they will lose their playing time at the peak of their careers by going against the manager. Rashford for example rightly got benched today, on performances, but all the news will be about his party because IMO, the result against City has stopped mattering to him
 
Fortitude said:
Can people stop saying they have? Whatever is going wrong with us, it's not for a lack of effort, even if that effort is misdirected, the players are trying and playing for the manager.
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There's no way we could be this bad with the players being 100% committed to the cause.

Even in the games we're winning we are absolutely dreadful and scraping by.

People act like when players down tools then you lose every game 4-0.

Ole, Mourinho, Rangnick were still picking up some wins in their final half season before getting the boot. The problem was, the performances in those wins were mostly dreadful. So we could never put a run of wins together because performance levels were so bad we were bound to drop points every other game.

Think about Ole's late wins against Atalanta and Villareal to keep us in the CL, think about his 3-0 win against Spurs a couple of games before he got sacked. Players don't reduce their effort to 0%. But they do sulk enough to drop performance levels to a 5th-8th placed type finish.
 
Agree they haven’t downed tools …..they’re just crap footballers
 
Shiva87 said:
I think you are wrong this time around. If we scrape results and don’t get into the champions league spots all season, even then I wouldn’t sack Ten Hag,

I think if there is acceptance in the board, staff and players that ETH will be backed, then his principles will flow through on the pitch better. No better way to do this than stick with him during a tough period, and poor results, and then use his cue to remove some toxic elements in the club.

the only way United turn this malaise around is if ETH keeps his job for 4-5 years (regardless of results) before being sacked if results aren’t good enough. Players should be scared they will lose their playing time at the peak of their careers by going against the manager. Rashford for example rightly got benched today, on performances, but all the news will be about his party because IMO, the result against City has stopped mattering to him
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Whenever a new ‘owner’ comes in, they appointment their own manager very soon.

This goes for managers who are actually performing well, let alone ones that are already on the verge of the sack.

I want Utd to turn this around, but it’s delusional to think ETH will be here next season.

We’ve seen this time and time again - we know this process.

Add into it a new ‘owner’ and it’s as obvious as can be.
 
This is also a strong example of why agreement doesn’t happen with blind faith in a system. When the coach introduces something new, it has to produce results to give positive reinforcement for the players to buy more into it. Ten Hag went all in all too abruptly.
 
Fortitude said:
You want them to 'work harder' against City, how exactly, without an actual plan or collective press? Which suggests aimless running would appease because it would look like effort.
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Not said anything about aimless running and it’s not a case of either or like you are making out, I have no idea why people can only see extremes.

If anyone has watched the last three games and thinks that the players have not their all in all three I’d be amazed. There is a lot in between downing tools and maximum effort on a regular basis.
 
Maguire could have walked off after 2 minutes and said feck this Ten Hag fella if players had downed tools
 
Rhyme Animal said:
Agree. You’d think anyone who actually watched that City game would find it very hard to suggest that this group of players are genuinely giving everything and all have 100% belief in the manager.
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You’d think anyone who actually looked at the two starting lineups that day would have realised us losing had very little to do with “giving everything” and much more to them being a far better team both individually and collectively.
 
Mickeza said:
You’d think anyone who actually looked at the two starting lineups that day would have realised us losing had very little to do with “giving everything” and much more to them being a far better team both individually and collectively.
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Nah, sorry, not having this.

I’m not saying that team was good enough to beat City.

I’m saying that those players were not giving their all - and literally every top pro pundit agrees.
 
I'm not sure I agree to be honest.

Fulham almost walked through us at times. A few players like Eriksen, Fernandez, Antony looked like they were scared to get close to Fulham players.

Not downed tools but playing at 45%. Still a great win. Last 10 minutes they put in the effort.
 
Rhyme Animal said:
Nah, sorry, not having this.

I’m not saying that team was good enough to beat City.

I’m saying that those players were not giving their all - and literally every top pro pundit agrees.
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Football is about confidence. We started that game well - then conceded a soft penalty - missed a great chance and then had zero belief of winning after that. Nothing to do with downing tools and everything to do with an injury riddled team lacking the quality and belief that they could beat the best team on the planet.
 
Fortitude said:
If you're being coached with weak instruction, or left to figure things out yourself, some are going to be on island because they *need* instruction and coaching and are, quite frankly, incapable of being these cultured thinkers who can digest and process a game in real time. Honestly, sometimes it's giving the players too much respect to have them go out there and freestyle; that's for the brilliant, like when Real Madrid were doing their thing and winning CL's with moments of unquestionable, individual brilliance whilst having that free rein to express themselves as they saw fit.

I'm not knocking players for not being skilled free-thinkers, either. Some players are brilliant under instruction and absolutely dogged once given their brief - I'll take that all day. A good example would be McTominay. His best actual form and performances in our shirt was in the McFred partnership when his one and only job was to sweep up behind Fred and then give the most simple pass to another red shirt. He didn't have to think about spatials or positioning, or covering or tasking himself with expansive passing and he absolutely thrived just being Fred's water carrier. It can seem undignified, but it extracted all of his energy and reduced aimless or clueless actions to naught. He wasn't trying any more or less, but his energy was very easy to harness and be of value in that simple role. Make McTominay a freer thinking midfielder, and the accusations of ball-watching and not covering bodies etc. etc. come thick and fast. He's still the same guy, and he isn't trying any more or less.

I think our squad is devoid of confidence and a lot of them can't navigate through torrid times; if your confidence is on the floor you're going to be stuttery and apprehensive, which compounds the misery. You've highlighted this in your post as downing tools, but I'd more say that's a collective who don't know what to do with themselves where downing tools is purposely putting half-arsed effort into everything you're doing, and even purposely passing the buck because why not, who cares? I don't think our players phone it in in this manner; they're just not very good, but they're trying.

Dalot is another good example, I think. He is wildly erratic from game to game, but he's not trying any more or less, it's just his level of ability.
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Great post and i agree with your general analysis in this thread.
 
Maybe, just maybe, EtH finally decided and say FIFA/FC games are better than PES and sent Sancho a friend request on PSN to apologise.
 
Lay said:
The effort is there but the quality is lacking. A lot of them just aren't technically or physically good enough
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This is the nub of the problem. Quite a few of them are good enough at their top level but hardly any of them are good enough at their bottom level (or any way below the peak of their form and condition).
 
I maintain they have. They are so abject in some games, I refuse to believe that they are consistently trying.
 
The simple fact is that the players are not good enough to compete at the top level. Wait until the buisness end of the season and we will see this team fold. 46 years supporting United and this is getting worse year by year.
 
Fortitude said:
Can people stop saying they have? Whatever is going wrong with us, it's not for a lack of effort, even if that effort is misdirected, the players are trying and playing for the manager.
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I agree, I think it's a lazy analysis to say they've downed tools. Does not downing tools mean they're always trying their hardest? No. Some players clearly hate to track back and defend and our team is overall so offensive. Our players do fight to the end, but the question is how strong they are.
 
The players put a shift in at Fulham. It was good to See it. Sadly confidence is very low, defeats shatter confidence, the press and social media (arm chair managers) piling on pressure have an effect.. then the final ball isnt quite right, decision making with the final ball is effected, goals are hard to come by…

win-a few on the bounce and watch the confidence suddenly return, passing improves, natural talent comes out rather than over thinking. I believe we will turn a corner. The return to fitness of Martinez, Shaw, Casamiro etc will definitely help.
 
Lentwood said:
It does my head in, it's the laziest, most overused piece of rubbish I see on here - and that's saying something.
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To be honest so called football pundits are as bad like keane who throws out the same rubbish the minute we go through a rough patch, it's insulting to players professionalism, yes there are always the odd money Grabbing players but that is a very small percentage in football in general
 
It's stupid because those using the phrase are implying players are doing it on purpose just to sack the manager. As if it's even remotely that simple.

Shiva87 said:
the only way United turn this malaise around is if ETH keeps his job for 4-5 years (regardless of results) before being sacked if results aren’t good enough.
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:lol: I have seen these "needs to be given half a decade no matter what" ideas only ever posted by United fans. Never by any other fanbase. Geniunely curious as to why that's the case. Is it that we still can't get over the fact there won't be another Sir Alex or what.
 
Lee565 said:
To be honest so called football pundits are as bad like keane who throws out the same rubbish the minute we go through a rough patch, it's insulting to players professionalism, yes there are always the odd money Grabbing players but that is a very small percentage in football in general
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It's disrespectful, its so boring for the fans tuning in to hear the same nonsense over and over again and it also shows a complete lack of understanding of the real issues.

There's a reason the likes of Keane, Neville and Scholes never made it as managers. They've no concept of tactics or systems and the impact they have on the team as a whole, it always only ever boils down to 'showing a bit of personality'.
 
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