Jorge Valdivia, know nothing of him at club level but a talent for Chile
Players differently rated at club and national team
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss three 1-1 draws.
The first got us knocked out of the FA Cup, the next puts us in a good position in our Round of 16 Europa League game, and the latest was an actual decent performance against Arsenal at Old Trafford.
All hopes for the season now rest on the Europa League - does Amorim have the squad to win it?
Claudio Pizarro.
One of the biggest legends of the Bundesliga, but don't think he has quite the same standing in Peru.
One of the biggest legends of the Bundesliga, but don't think he has quite the same standing in Peru.
well I don’t agree that totti was playing world class for Italy in 2000 or 2002, in fact I was quite disappointed in him then. Seeing as he played so brilliantly for Roma.
Luc Nilis was a monster at PSV, in fact i prefer him to Bergkamp or Litmanen a far as 90s eredivisie supporting forward/attacking midfielders is concerned, but he doesn't seem to be nearly as good in the Belgium games i've watched. His record is underwhelming internationally, though i don't know what the actual perception of him was from Belgians of that era.
Fernandinho is well regarded in England, but consistently looked out of his depth for Brazil. I'd be surprised if he's regarded anywhere near as well there.
Fernandinho is well regarded in England, but consistently looked out of his depth for Brazil. I'd be surprised if he's regarded anywhere near as well there.
The bit in the OP which strook me as odd is 'how good was Miroslav Klose'.
Oh you know he was bang average and is only the top scorer in WC history, nothing major.
Oh you know he was bang average and is only the top scorer in WC history, nothing major.
You could argue he was better than all but shearer
Well then shouldn't he have finished 3rd quite a few times then?
The type of discussion that's the premise of the thread
Thought he had a really good Euro 2000 - man of the match in the final and selected in the team of the tournament. Don't think he did much in 2002 or 2004, but had a good World Cup in 2006 - 4 assists after all - albeit not quite at his top level due to fitness.
I'm not surprised about Shevchenko's record. The thing is Shevchenko played at Milan when Serie A was still arguably the strongest league and toughest to score in Europe. And he scored more than 16 league goals on 5 occasions when he was at Milan, during which he scored 24 league goals three times. If we were to go back slightly further, he did so twice with Dynamo Kyiv too. So that is a total of 7 times in his career. Something that Klose managed to achieve only once in 05-06. That is the kind of consistency that Klose could not accomplish. In addition, Klose played majority of his club career at Germany when the Bundesliga was not one of the top three leagues in Europe. He then moved to Lazio in 2011. By that time, the Serie A was a shadow of its former self with regards to quality and strength. Not forgetting Shevchenko was twice the top scorer of the Champions League in 98-99 and 05-06. Hence there weren't any doubt over his credentials. Shevchenko's club career was outstanding, similar to Klose's international record. Klose's club career however was decent at best and certainly pales in comparison to his record for Germany.
Well to put things into perspective, he was the best striker in series A at that time, but he didn't score that many in PL after his big move to Chelsea, with less than 4 or 5 league goals per season, which is awful return.
I think that was less about the leagues but more about the timing of the switch. Having to adapt to a new league and having some injury problems, he just fell off a cliff. If I remember correctly he was loaned back to Milan for a season during his Chelsea stint and didn't score a goal for them.
It'd be a very stretched argument.
I'm really not sure it would tbh. Ferdinand Teddy and collymore are definitely not better.
I'd listen to Owen and fowler but I think Owen is the only one I'd concede on.
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Regarding Klose, one thing you're missing out on are his assist numbers. People wrongly remember him as being just a poacher but throughout his career he's been a brilliant one-touch passer and creating space for others. That's the major reason why German fans miss him so much right now, there are still players in the Bundesliga who score as many or more goals than Klose used to, like Werner right now and Gomez previously, but none had the ability to play one touch passing and be techincally good like Klose used to be.
One great example of his underrated passing ability is in the England match in 2010. For Germany's second goal, he is on the right wing, dragging Upson towards him and opening an empty space down the middle. He plays a lovely one touch lob over Upson into that space, which Muller runs on to and that leads to the Podolski chance. For Germany's fourth, he plays an esquite curving pass with his left foot into Ozil, who races past Barry and sets up Muller. These aspects always get overlooked by non-German fans when discussing Klose and annoys me when people call him just a 'poacher', he was so much more than that.
Regarding his club assists, the seasons in Bremen when he got only 13 goals and 15 goals, he also suplemented them with 15 assists and 10 assists respectively. The season he had 25 goals, he also had 13 assists then as well. Overall, his Bremen record was 63 goals and 47 assists in 132 matches.
In his whole club career, Klose had 134 assists to go with his 232 goals in 465 matches (g+a every 117 mins). That's a very good record also considering he played in a top 4 European league throughout his career. People remember him more for his underwhelming stint at Bayern, but that was during a rather turmultous period in Bayern as well, but he rejuvenated his career with a great last few years at Lazio. During his period at Bremen he was a brilliant striker.
That really wasn't above his level actually. He was always that good in the right setup. Nesta was just better
Materazzi is the one that went above his level
Xavi, Robben, Neymar, Lewandowski as well imo. But yeah, i tend to agree regarding Suarez. The racism and biting and general issues with his character have shafted him of proper recognition. He's been an historically great player, at his peak he was on Henry/Ronaldinho levels. He also doesn't belong in this thread since he was amazing for Uruguay too, won them Copa America almost single-handedly
Totti was fantastic at euro 2000. If we won he'd have been player of the tournament. He was so-so in 2002 and bad in 2004 and injured in 2006, then retired. Pity as we really needed him in 2008/10
Sheva was washed up just when he reached 30 years of age and could find his mojo back after returning to AC Milan. Also Klose was marvelous at clubs hes been with (as his records with Kaiserlautern and Bremen told us) not sure why you keep calling him "decent", while he was germany best striker in the 2000's.
Seems like people are pissed because Klose broke Ronaldo's record for WC All Time Top Scorer and started making argument him being low level player at club level, which is not true.
The trap of arguments like this is you have now Bruno as the best player at United, despite him being just a good player with indifferent spells in Italy and for the NT. Bruno just slotted in smoothly as the most needed direct player in a pretty static machine, aka a functional player. Shevchenko was the same for Milan and pretty gassed when he left.
Boumsong and Chimbonda
I’ll bow to a qualified majority and assume my memoriea of the championships are more jumbled than I thought, and Totti had a very good individual tournament in 2000.
The disappointment I temember must have beenin later tournaments. For the record I thought he was good in 2006, and showed himself a team player, he just wasn’t as brilliant as I’d seen him several times for Roma.
Because he broke his leg 4 months before the WC. Barely recovered enough to play, but obviously wasn't fit at all. If he weren't Totti he wouldn't have even been called up in 2006
I'd blame Pogba for this before him winning wC 2018 United fans never give a damn about players performance in THE international tournament now we have some people willing to trade Bruno with Grealish just becuase the former is having a poor EURO.
Realistically you’d concede on Fowler and Wright too. Great player though.
Speaking about it: If future historians were to dig up an archive of national team tournaments, who would they decide were the better player: Renato Sanchez or Eden Hazard?
Hazard was one of the best players in the 2018 World Cup.
Cole’s career shits all over Wright and Fowler. Fowler was finished by about 25.
True, but a bit disappointing when they went out in the (edit) semi final. Sanchez was tipped as the player to get for all top clubs after Portugal won Euro 2016. This tournament he’s looked much better than Eden.
David Nugent - rubbish at club level, scored every time he played for England
Legitimately one of my favourite ever goals. Absolute shithousery