Bochini was one of Maradona’s idols when he was kid, and then he grew up and became a rival. Bochini was in the Argentine squad in WC 1986 but barely played. So odd that he wasn’t selected for the 78 and 82 World Cups.
Players differently rated at club and national team
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss three 1-1 draws.
The first got us knocked out of the FA Cup, the next puts us in a good position in our Round of 16 Europa League game, and the latest was an actual decent performance against Arsenal at Old Trafford.
All hopes for the season now rest on the Europa League - does Amorim have the squad to win it?
Bochini was one of Maradona’s idols when he was kid, and then he grew up and became a rival. Bochini was in the Argentine squad in WC 1986 but barely played. So odd that he wasn’t selected for the 78 and 82 World Cups.
Bert Trautmann wasn't even capped.
Cannavaro is often rated ahead of Nesta by people based on the 2006 World Cup where Nesta got injured in the group stages. In fact Nesta got injured a few times at vital points for Italy. Nesta meanwhile at club level was much better.
Andy Cole is an obvious one, 3rd highest goalscorer in PL history and only 15 caps for England.
It’s true, but it’s also true that Evra played only bit parts for much of what I would call his peak. I remember it used to fluster me. Then he became a stalwart, but also in parts were he wasn’t at the same level for the club for a while.
‘world class’ is the most boring definition I know, but you’ve got yourself a circular argument there.
I could say Totti and Giggs were world class in their positions even if they never really excelled at the big stage for Italy and Wales, and you could say, no, that means they weren’t world class. But to me, they were.
Just came in here to post about Cole.
He became a starter in 2008, he was in his prime, 2 years into his United career.
Probably the best run of form for a CB above their normal level I've seen for a defender at a WC.
Totti's Italy career was a bit like Rooney's England, he was really good at his first tournament in Euro 2000, like Rooney was in Euro 2004 and it looked like he was going to carry his nation for a number of years. But he didn't stand out in the following tournaments, even when going into tournaments after good seasons, and often went in on injuries. He did win a World Cup, unlike Rooney, but he wasn't at his best. Then he retired.
Carlos Valderrama is a lot more well-known for his time leading the Colombian NT than for his club career, which was fairly subdued.
Totti was world class in 2000-2002 for both Italy (Euro 2000 finalists vs France after two Del Piero misses and a golden goal by Trezeguet; shafted at WC 2002 vs South Korea by the infamous Byron Moreno referee) and Roma (Serie A winners in 2001, runners up in 2002, both seasons under Capello as coach)! It is well reported that he turned down a very big offer from Real Madrid to stay at Roma in 2002.
scored 41 goals in his 2 first season at Bayern that's excellent number, although admittedly his last 2 seasons there were very underwhelming but this was different era where top strikers often lost their mojo when they reached 30 year of age.
Yeah the difference between Klose's performances for club and national team are always vastly overblown. Most people simply aren't aware of his club career. It doesn't help that his most prominent stint, at Bayern, he often had to play the second striker roll to Luca Toni for instance. Though over his whole club career his goal+assist per minute stats are more than respectable. Even at the end of his career he was still a very good player for Lazio when he wasn't injured.
And on the other side, being the main striker for a country like Germany for so long, while being a great achievement in its own right, resulted in those great records.
And on the other side, being the main striker for a country like Germany for so long, while being a great achievement in its own right, resulted in those great records.
Glenn Hoddle ruined his NT career. Cole got so much unfair stick from England fans and the media.
He was competing with Shearer, Ian Wright, Les Ferdinand, Robbie Fowler, Stan Collymore and Teddy Sheringham. And later Michael Owen.
I think of Dea Gea, was never rated at international level but was world class at club level
That's a decent return, but hardly excellent imo. Klose only ever managed to score more than 16 league goals once in his career. His stint at Bremen is the only club where he averaged more than a goal every 2 games. And that's too if we were to only consider league goals and not goals in all competitions. Otherwise, he is usually a 1 goal in 3 games striker throughout his club career.
Anyway I've seen Andrew Cole mentioned and I think that's a good shout. I felt Robbie Fowler is another English forward in his prime who had a largely underwhelming international career. If you speak to most scousers, they will tell you they rate Fowler higher than both Owen and Torres, with perhaps only Suarez slightly ahead of Fowler as their best forward since the PL inception. Fowler was a terrific talent and I remembered he really exploded on the scene when he scored more than 30 goals in all competitions as a 19 year old in 94/95 and won the PFA YPOTY. He then scored more than 30 goals again for the next two seasons running, while becoming the first player to win the YPOTY twice in a row and also the fastest player to reach 100 goals for LFC (took him 1 less game than Ian Rush). He never replicate the same form with England, and out of his 7 goals for them, only one came in a competitive match (vs. Albania in a WC qualifier lol).
If we were to go back farther in time, John McGovern has to be up there. He captained Nottingham Forest to two European Cups and a First Division title, and won another First Division title with Derby County. He played more than 300 games for Forest, yet he was never capped by Scotland. Steve Bruce is another notable name who was never capped for his country. Despite playing an integral part of a successful United side, he was deemed to be not good enough for England.
Difficult to believe that Cantona declined the opportunity to play for France because he didn't want to be the main striker with Zidane as a number 10
Suggesting that Cantona was liked by Jacquet in 1994-96 because the retired player in 1997 became a beach football player (and as a result manager of this team) just doesn't make sense. Beach football just needs famous players for marketing purposes...
Of course, the King really did want to play the Euro in England... and Jacquet had a plan that would exclude big egos and players who did symbolise the 1994 failure such as the King and El Magnifico Ginola.
Cantona and Ginola should have been part of the Euro 1996 instead of players like madar and martins ...
Good point. I fully agree.
There are several reasons IMO
1. Henry scored 51 goals and only 2 assists from Zidane despite both played 57 timed together. Replace Zidane by Bergkamp and the story would have been different.
2. Another interesting aspect is that Henry was often deployed on the left or as a support striker to support another striker like trezeguet at the euro 2004 or Dugarry.
3. Unlucky in some circumstances
Euro 2004 - instead of having Pires on the left side and recreating the gunners selection, Pires was deployed on the right to accommodate Zidane. And a 442 with Trezeguet and Henry doesn't work.
WC 2002 - Henry was at his peak but incredibly lucky maybe injured plus red card against Uruguay iirc
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You made a strange leap, that was about the FFF and Cantona having no issue. Regarding Jacquet, Cantona was his captain from 94 to his FIFA suspension, Jacquet liked him.
I reckon fowler and Torres are about equal in terms of what they actually did. With fowler it will always be a question of what he could have been without the injuries. Unbelievable talent.
Suarez is a level above both. If you disregard longevity and trophies won, he has a strong claim for being our best ever player. He was just unreal.
Above Dalglish?
As a legend at the club, of course not.
I am not sure if, strictly individually, Dalglish was ever quite as good as Suarez was for in his last two seasons.
I don't know myself but wasn't Dalglish a Ballon d'Or contender? I like Suarez a lot but I don't know if I would have him above prime Gerrard and Dalglish was supposed to be better than Gerrard.
Suarez would have won at least one balon d'or himself if Messi and Ronaldo hadn't been around. He's basically the best player of the last decade not named Lionel or Christiano.
Klose is the kind of player where you might get the wrong impression if you only saw him play at the World Cup. He was never a pure goal scorer, but was more appreciated for his link up play. So I don't think these stats tell the whole story. I can remember a game against Bayern where Bremen won 3:0 with Klose not scoring any goals, but assisting all 3 and being by far the best player on the pitch. In 05/06 he managed to score 25 and assist 13 in only 26 league games. Considering the performance he put in at the WC it's definitely not an overstatement to call him one of the best players in the world at that point, at both club and international level.
The reason why he couldn't do it on the highest level in terms of club performance is often attributed to alleged mental issues. He was having another great season in 06/07 until his transfer to Bayern was announced, at which point his performances just dropped off a cliff. Similar thing happened at Bayern where he got off to a great start with 8 goals and 4 assists in his first 6 games, but after that he only managed to get 2 goals and 4 assists for the rest of the season. The criticism he got in the German press was harsh to say the least and it's assumed that the pressure to perform at Bayern was just too much for him. After that he had a spurt of good performances every now and then, but only managed to get back to something resembling his old level after going to Lazio. By then he was already into his mid thirties.
Or Ribéry, Robben, Xavi, Iniesta and Lewandowski. He could have won one but you could say that for many players, if better players weren't around someone else may have won it.
But seriously it's fine if you rate him as the best ever, I was just surprised that Dalglish or even Gerrard aren't the prohibitive favorites for that title.
Roque Jr
I often read in forums like he was some joke in club football but he was a beast for Brazil
I often read in forums like he was some joke in club football but he was a beast for Brazil
I fully expect Memo Ochoa to turn into the goalkeeper equivalent of a Super Saiyan at the WC next year.
Dont think he ever finished in top 3 for the Ballon Dor, did he?
Not because he didnt deserve it, but because of certain controversies he was never winning a Ballon Dor, with or without Messi and Ronaldo..
Just like i said this was from different era where youd be considered as top striker if you scored more than 25 goals a season. Also it might be suprised you but Andriy Shevchenko has only scored more than 30 goals in only 1 season during his peak at AC Milan, and he was considered by many as one of the best strikers in the 2000's (rightfully so). Cristiano Ronaldo and Lionel Messi kinda messed up the perception by setting the standard so high.
Podolski is one. But maybe if he didn't go to the Arse, he may have been better at club level.
Gotze always looked better at international than club once he left Dortmund.
Gotze always looked better at international than club once he left Dortmund.
Messi
José Luis Chilavert
South Americas best player 1996 and 3 times worlds greatest goalkeeper. An absolute World Cup legend had a great club career but mostly played in Argentina, his clubs in Europe were relatively modest sides in Zaragoza and Strasbourg.
Might just have been the times. Claudio Taffarel of Brazil being a similar case.
South Americas best player 1996 and 3 times worlds greatest goalkeeper. An absolute World Cup legend had a great club career but mostly played in Argentina, his clubs in Europe were relatively modest sides in Zaragoza and Strasbourg.
Might just have been the times. Claudio Taffarel of Brazil being a similar case.
I am wrong then. Sorry
I thought he was like Ginola: completely blacklisted after the 94 fiasco.
Seedorf is an absolute legend at club level, with a long and successful career at some of the world greatest clubs. He never was without controversy in the Dutch NT, didn’t play for them in his prime and generally wasn’t a success in the NT.
Götze was not worse for Bayern than he was for Dortmund. It is just the perspective that has changed. At BVB he was the big talent in a team with a lot less talented players. At Bayern he just was not that special anymore and he did not go the next step that many expected from him.
I think it's that last part. His performances, and especially scoring a world cup winning goal maybe inflated expectations too much.
Agree, probably better than Cristiano for spells too
Didn't he need 4 or 5 chances to score a goal