Plane crash in Kazakhstan

[Lu Tze]

A discussion of an accident is different to showing video footage. The vast majority of people using the caf are thoughtful enough to use spoiler tags when posting anything that contains some sort of tragedy.

Your line about "folks have a choice whether to press play" is simply you transferring the responsibility of your lack of thinking and forethought onto others.
You are quite simply in the wrong. Dont try and weasel out of that. Do better

I think it's quite the opposite - people that can't resist the urge to press play (or who can't resist the horrors of a couple of static, mundane images, prior to pressing play) then moan about it, are transferring their responsibility to have some ownership of their actions and emotional fortitude.

Also, not sure what I've exactly done in this situation that necessitates me to "do better"? I've not demonstrated any lack of thinking or forethought - I didn't post the thing, but I have a different view to you on this matter.

 

[Abizzz]

I think it's quite the opposite - people that can't resist the urge to press play (or who can't resist the horrors of a couple of static, mundane images, prior to pressing play) then moan about it, are transferring their responsibility to have some ownership of their actions and emotional fortitude.

Also, not sure what I've exactly done in this situation that necessitates me to "do better"? I've not demonstrated any lack of thinking or forethought - I didn't post the thing, but I have a different view to you on this matter.

For what it's worth, I agree. I understand with sensitive pictures but for a video where the viewer has to press play making two clicks out of it is a bit of a joke.


Incredible so many survived that. Rest in peace to those that didn't, but to me this is some sort of miracle (well as much as miracles exist).

 

[NicolaSacco]

This is one of the first plane crashes I’ve known where for the first 12 hours, people only talked about survivors, rather than deaths.

 

[NicolaSacco]

Honestly I think after seeing 9/11 live at (insert early but still very much conscious age here) and thereafter being on the internet growing up, this stuff is just very normalised. That may be a bad thing, and perhaps it'd be better to not have seen this stuff, but I and squillions of others have and there's no putting the genie back in the bottle.

Tragedy is out there, whether people want to see it or not. Folks have a choice whether to press play.

You used to have to go to HMV and rent one of their snuff videos to see that. Crazy how things have changed.

 

[Cloud7]

It always feels surprising to me (In a good way) when people survive plane crashes like this. Like every time I fly on a plane I would not think a crash is something I survive.

 

[4bars]

A discussion of an accident is different to showing video footage. The vast majority of people using the caf are thoughtful enough to use spoiler tags when posting anything that contains some sort of tragedy.

Your line about "folks have a choice whether to press play" is simply you transferring the responsibility of your lack of thinking and forethought onto others.
You are quite simply in the wrong. Dont try and weasel out of that. Do better

To see the video you need to press 2 times and wait seconds to reach the crash. Putting a spoiler, is 1 extra click. Is that 1 extra click that avoid that extra scarring? This is not a in your face picture. Is inside a thread that is well described what is going to happen to see the video has to ve a conscious active clicking and waiting. Spoiler would not safe the curiousity of who click the video (WTF do you expect to see? Honestly

The drama FFS

 

[Stack]

To see the video you need to press 2 times and wait seconds to reach the crash. Putting a spoiler, is 1 extra click. Is that 1 extra click that avoid that extra scarring? This is not a in your face picture. Is inside a thread that is well described what is going to happen to see the video has to ve a conscious active clicking and waiting. Spoiler would not safe the curiousity of who click the video (WTF do you expect to see? Honestly

The drama FFS

oh feck off. Its simple common courtesy that happens in tons of threads.

 

[Abizzz]

So it seems certain this wasn't an accident.

May whoever shoots at civilian airliners rot in hell eternally.

 

[harms]

So it seems certain this wasn't an accident.

May whoever shoots at civilian airliners rot in hell eternally.

Kinda depends on your definition of an accident, I very much doubt that it was intentional (as in people actively shooting at their own civilian airliners). Not to say that they aren't responsible if this version checks out, of course. But it's more of a manslaughter (as in an accidental homicide) than murder.

The more (potentially) damning thing is what happened after the missile explosion. Why was the plane transferred to Kazakhstan instead of some nearby airport that didn't require the plane to fly over the Caspian Sea? I don't know anything about plane regulations and emergency protocols but it seems... suspicious? Like they were covering for the potential feck up hoping that the plane would crash into the sea. It's all speculation at this point, of course.

Azerbaijani government sources have exclusively confirmed to Euronews on Thursday that a Russian surface-to-air missile caused the Azerbaijan Airlines plane crash in Aktau on Wednesday.

According to the sources, the missile was fired at Flight 8432 during drone air activity above Grozny, and the shrapnel hit the passengers and cabin crew as it exploded next to the aircraft mid-flight.

Government sources have told Euronews that the damaged aircraft was not allowed to land at any Russian airports despite the pilots’ requests for an emergency landing, and it was ordered to fly across the Caspian Sea towards Aktau in Kazakhstan.

According to data, the plane’s GPS navigation systems were jammed throughout the flight path above the sea.

And here we go. Source in the Azerbaijani government confirms the missile version:
https://www.euronews.com/2024/12/26...russian-missile-over-grozny-caused-aktau-cras

 

[Frosty]

Kinda depends on your definition of an accident, I very much doubt that it was intentional (as in people actively shooting at their own civilian airliners). Not to say that they aren't responsible if this version checks out, of course. But it's more of a manslaughter (as in an accidental homicide) than murder.

Oh, here we go. Source in the Azerbaijani government confirms the missile version:
https://www.euronews.com/2024/12/26...russian-missile-over-grozny-caused-aktau-cras

"Government sources have told Euronews that the damaged aircraft was not allowed to land at any Russian airports despite the pilots’ requests for an emergency landing, and it was ordered to fly across the Caspian Sea towards Aktau in Kazakhstan.

According to data, the plane’s GPS navigation systems were jammed throughout the flight path above the sea."

Why on earth would Russia do both of these things to a civilian airliner?

 

[harms]

"Government sources have told Euronews that the damaged aircraft was not allowed to land at any Russian airports despite the pilots’ requests for an emergency landing, and it was ordered to fly across the Caspian Sea towards Aktau in Kazakhstan.

According to data, the plane’s GPS navigation systems were jammed throughout the flight path above the sea."

Why on earth would Russia do both of these things to a civilian airliner?

The only explanation that makes sense to me so far, if these are all true, is, as follows:
1. They've accidentally (I still believe so) exploded an air defense missile near the passenger plane during the well-documented drone attack on Grozny
2. Realizing what they've done they've decided not to admit and try to save the plane but to cover it up Homelander-style instead...
3. So they tell the pilot that he can't land in Grozny, Makhachkala or other nearby airports and he needs to fly a clearly faulty plane with literal holes in it (there are many pictures of how its interior looked during the flight after the explosion) over the Caspian... apparently jamming its GPS too in the hopes that it'll crash into the sea and the evidence will be too hard to uncover?

I realize that it sounds like a wild conspiracy theory but that's the only explanation that kinda makes sense to me at the moment, given that all the information in that leak from Azerbaijani is correct. Hopefully there's another, less sinister explanation.

 

[harms]

It's also interesting how Kazakhstan will investigate this. While it's heavily reliant on Russia economically (and vice versa, especially after the recent sanctions), it's not controlled by pro-Russian forces per se... So far they've been pretty cagey about that investigation and even arrested the guy who shot drone footage of the crash site and sold it to the international press, but I can understand them not wanting to come out with pretty damning accusations a day after the crash without thoroughly fact-checking it time and again.

 

[Frosty]

It's also interesting how Kazakhstan will investigate this. While it's heavily reliant on Russia economically (and vice versa, especially after the recent sanctions), it's not controlled by pro-Russian forces per se... So far they've been pretty cagey about that investigation and even arrested the guy who shot drone footage of the crash site and sold it to the international press, but I can understand them not wanting to come out with pretty damning accusations a day after the crash without thoroughly fact-checking it time and again.

Brazil will get involved given it was an Embraer aircraft. The engines are developed by an American company so the NTSB could get involved if invited. So it may be that the US write the accident report.

 

[Frosty]

The only explanation that makes sense to me so far, if these are all true, is, as follows:
1. They've accidentally (I still believe so) exploded an air defense missile near the passenger plane during the well-documented drone attack on Grozny
2. Realizing what they've done they've decided not to admit and try to save the plane but to cover it up Homelander-style instead...
3. So they tell the pilot that he can't land in Grozny, Makhachkala or other nearby airports and he needs to fly a clearly faulty plane with literal holes in it (there are many pictures of how its interior looked during the flight after the explosion) over the Caspian... apparently jamming its GPS too in the hopes that it'll crash into the sea and the evidence will be too hard to uncover?

I realize that it sounds like a wild conspiracy theory but that's the only explanation that kinda makes sense to me at the moment, given that all the information in that leak from Azerbaijani is correct. Hopefully there's another, less sinister explanation.

That's not so much wild as coldly logical given past events. It's as if they haven't learned from MH17.

 

[Abizzz]

Kinda depends on your definition of an accident, I very much doubt that it was intentional (as in people actively shooting at their own civilian airliners). Not to say that they aren't responsible if this version checks out, of course. But it's more of a manslaughter (as in an accidental homicide) than murder.

The more (potentially) damning thing is what happened after the missile explosion. Why was the plane transferred to Kazakhstan instead of some nearby airport that didn't require the plane to fly over the Caspian Sea? I don't know anything about plane regulations and emergency protocols but it seems... suspicious? Like they were covering for the potential feck up hoping that the plane would crash into the sea. It's all speculation at this point, of course.



And here we go. Source in the Azerbaijani government confirms the missile version:
https://www.euronews.com/2024/12/26...russian-missile-over-grozny-caused-aktau-cras

Yeah with accident I meant bird strike, mechanical failure or human error (by pilot's, maintenance staff, air control).


Given the parties involved I won't believe in an accidental shoot down either unless they provide conclusive proof.

 

[VorZakone]

 

[G3079]

"Government sources have told Euronews that the damaged aircraft was not allowed to land at any Russian airports despite the pilots’ requests for an emergency landing, and it was ordered to fly across the Caspian Sea towards Aktau in Kazakhstan.

According to data, the plane’s GPS navigation systems were jammed throughout the flight path above the sea."

Why on earth would Russia do both of these things to a civilian airliner?

The GPS jamming conducted by the Russians is not directional, they did not blackout this aircraft specifically, they did this to the entire region. You can easily see that they've already lost GPS tracking when they were still underway to Grozny near Makhachkala, well before they got shot at:

Any aircraft that was flying in that area had their GPS tampered with, not just flight J28243.
And as to why they did that is of course to mess with the GPS tracking of the Ukrainian drones which were active in the region on that day. Anybody with two braincells to rub together would have closed the airspace in the region, but we're talking about Russia.

I do not want to exclude the possibility that they might have hoped to have the aircraft crash into the sea, maybe hiding the traces of what had really happened, especially with how suspiciously quick they were in claiming that the aircraft had suffered a birdstrike and had to divert from Grozny because of fog. They must have quickly realized what had happened and been in utter panic, because nobody would buy those excuses. METAR reports by the Grozny airport are public and for the time in question they show just a bit of mist, but still with 3.5km visibility and lowhanging cloudcover, but well within the minimums needed. And the damage profile of missile shrapnel is drastically different to birdstrikes, if any impartial investigation got their hands on the debris that excuse would also have been refuted quickly. Air crash investigation is so advanced, they had basically no chance of their story ever holding up to scrutiny. But Russian military culture has been so built around deflection, counteraccusation, lies and corruption that I am not surprised that their initial reaction was as seen. It's basically second nature by now.

As for diverting them across the sea, there is actually two good reasons for that. The first is of course the ongoing threat situation with an active air defense. It is way too dangerous for any aircraft to be there. Even if you don't shoot at the aircraft specifically there is always the chance that a missile erroneously aquires it as a target, as the Americans had also had to learn a few days prior when the USS Gettysburg shot down one of their own F/A-18 Super Hornet fighter jets with a missile it had aimed at Huthi drones. The second reason is that the weather in the region was not great for an emergency landing. With a fully intact and functioning aircraft it was well within the minimums needed, but with a heavily damaged aircraft with no flaps/slats and severely impacted handling it would have added an unreasonably large complication. As long as there was no deteriorating situation and they had enough fuel, diverting somewhere with better weather under those circumstances could actually be seen as reasonable.
However... if you ask me, neither of those good reasons played a role, they just panic-reacted and wanted it out of their hands and area of responsibility, and let someone else deal with it.

 

[Frosty]

The GPS jamming conducted by the Russians is not directional, they did not blackout this aircraft specifically, they did this to the entire region. You can easily see that they've already lost GPS tracking when they were still underway to Grozny near Makhachkala, well before they got shot at:

Any aircraft that was flying in that area had their GPS tampered with, not just flight J28243.
And as to why they did that is of course to mess with the GPS tracking of the Ukrainian drones which were active in the region on that day. Anybody with two braincells to rub together would have closed the airspace in the region, but we're talking about Russia.

I do not want to exclude the possibility that they might have hoped to have the aircraft crash into the sea, maybe hiding the traces of what had really happened, especially with how suspiciously quick they were in claiming that the aircraft had suffered a birdstrike and had to divert from Grozny because of fog. They must have quickly realized what had happened and been in utter panic, because nobody would buy those excuses. METAR reports by the Grozny airport are public and for the time in question they show just a bit of mist, but still with 3.5km visibility and lowhanging cloudcover, but well within the minimums needed. And the damage profile of missile shrapnel is drastically different to birdstrikes, if any impartial investigation got their hands on the debris that excuse would also have been refuted quickly. Air crash investigation is so advanced, they had basically no chance of their story ever holding up to scrutiny. But Russian military culture has been so built around deflection, counteraccusation, lies and corruption that I am not surprised that their initial reaction was as seen. It's basically second nature by now.

As for diverting them across the sea, there is actually two good reasons for that. The first is of course the ongoing threat situation with an active air defense. It is way too dangerous for any aircraft to be there. Even if you don't shoot at the aircraft specifically there is always the chance that a missile erroneously aquires it as a target, as the Americans had also had to learn a few days prior when the USS Gettysburg shot down one of their own F/A-18 Super Hornet fighter jets with a missile it had aimed at Huthi drones. The second reason is that the weather in the region was not great for an emergency landing. With a fully intact and functioning aircraft it was well within the minimums needed, but with a heavily damaged aircraft with no flaps/slats and severely impacted handling it would have added an unreasonably large complication. As long as there was no deteriorating situation and they had enough fuel, diverting somewhere with better weather under those circumstances could actually be seen as reasonable.
However... if you ask me, neither of those good reasons played a role, they just panic-reacted and wanted it out of their hands and area of responsibility, and let someone else deal with it.

Many thanks for this. Incredibly helpful.