Pep on MNF special

[breakout67]

How do you fit Poch's and Klopp's performances into that logic? United's spending dwarfs theirs much more than City does United's.
When talking about competition a lot of people can't stress finances enough when talking about City, but completely forget them when talking about the other two.

Just because money is a factor doesn't mean the coach is useless. Guardiola is one of the best managers in the world and spends a truckload of money. That is why he is a serial winner.

It's absolutely baffling that you bring up Poch when City bought directly from them, and the player they bought has been instrumental to the team. Klopp also had to sell one of his best players to fund transfers in other areas. If Poch could spend an extra £150m a year he might have actually won the league already (probably the season where Leicester won the league with a low points total).

You are basically arguing against what Guardiola admits himself. Without investment into the team City would not have achieved what they did this season. No manager in the world can turn average players into top players, you need top players in as many positions as possible to make the best team. After all that can you talk about tactics.

Aleggri said the exact same thing a few weeks ago. There's all this talk about tactics and coaching, when at the end of the day the players are the most important. Tactics are irrelevant without the right quality of player to execute them.

 

[Mihai]

It's not that simple though? I recall a certain club that spent nearly as much and finished the season 20 points behind him.

I don't think anyone spent anywhere near that amount on defenders and a keeper.

 

[Member 109952]

It's not that simple though? I recall a certain club that spent nearly as much and finished the season 20 points behind him.

Since Pep/Mou took over after 15/16 we've spent £260m net and City have spent £370m net. That's two top class full backs difference that would change our team.

The difference in the state of our squads when Van Gaal left (it was dire) is highlighted even more by the fact that £160m of our spend went on Pogba and Lukaku - when you look at the City squad they already had two equal players there for the same positions - De Bruyne and Aguero. Add in Sterling and David Silva who were already there and we still haven't signed anyone near the quality of those two (maybe Sanchez if he gets back to form) - though obviously the blame for that lies with Mourinho.

Aside from De Gea in goal, City had a far superior squad to us when Pep and Mou took over, and they've had the benefit of spending an extra £100m improving it whilst we've played catch up. I'm sure Mourinho knows this and wants to spend more, but the fact that our outlay over the past two years has been about £150m (not including sales) shows that's probably our upper limit to transfers atm - whereas City spent £280m last summer.

 

[Adisa]

There was talk of him selling David Silva in the summer of 16. Although, Silva is a fantastic Player as we all know, he had been poor for two consecutive seasons before Pep came.
He did very well in identifying the players he could work with and binning the rest. What I think he's succeeded in the most, the players, he identified he could work with, he has improved their performances considerably. I don't think he gets enough credit for that. To say he's got where he is simply because of money is nonsense.

 

[Thunderhead]

Sinc Pep and Mourinho arrived the spending is.

Pep £477m
Mou £313m

Not to mention City already had a better team. Zlatan got a bad injury so we had to replace our main striker.

People who talk about them both spending the same money are either ignorant on purpose or stupid enough to not understand the scenario.

It was so much better we finished level on points before Pep and Jose took over, or was LVG a far superior manager to Pelligrini.

 

[breakout67]

ThreT was talk of him selling David Silva in the summer of 16. Although, Silva is a fantastic PlayStation as we all know, he had been poor for two cobseconsec seasons before Pep came.
He did very well in identifying the players he could work with and binning the rest. What I think he's sucxeesuc in the most, the players, he identified he could work with, he has improved their performances considerably. I don't think he gets enough credit for that. To say he's got where he is simply because of money is nonsense.

 

[roonster09]

totally agree, but my point was if I was Jose, I'd be getting rid of most the squad players that won't feature in say two season time, Fellaini, Young, Mata, Herrera, Blind, Darmian and replace them this window with 4 or 5 22-25 year olds and one experienced player, say Alderwiereld who would be an excellent signing

Yeah, most of them will be out anyways except maybe Herrera.

 

[Lawman]

Tbf, you'd have to be brain-dead not to take that swap. He's clearly a better manager and also less of an obvious prick.

That said, I also don't see the need for a bunch of threads on a Manchester United website waxing lyrical about how awesome the Manchester City manager is and how terrible our manager is. Feck that.

Not sure it’s that clear Pogue.

 

[OldSchoolManc]

Ironically you aren't even joking, i'd swap Pep for Jose straight away if we had the chance.

Masterful management, the way he spent €245m on new defenders and a keeper was truly inspiring stuff.

We haven’t got enough money to play the game his way.
It’s all well and good planning and executing an attacking and tactical way of playing, but Peps specific way of playing requires all the pieces to be correct.
That takes a LOT of money, unless you already have the core there.
I can’t stand him. Put him in charge of anything less than a number one team in the league and he would struggle. It’d be like Swansea trying to play the right way but getting relegated. He’s clever, in that he always chooses the right team to be in charge of, but he hasn’t got the balls for a real challenge.

 

[Mihai]

anyway I enjoyed the programme, it's a shame they can't do it for each manager, would be really interesting to see Jose, Klopp, Ponch and then the likes of Houghton, Wagner, Rafa explain their tactics and what they want to get out of the squad of players.

Ponch

 

[Lawman]

City's most expensive transfer under Pep was under £60m, so I don't know what he would or wouldn't do in the same case.

Yeah £60m record as you rightfully say but how many £50m alongside this? He’s been brilliant domestically thus season so fair play and people won’t bother but that’s the reality.

 

[Lawman]

We haven’t got enough money to play the game his way.
It’s all well and good planning and executing an attacking and tactical way of playing, but Peps specific way of playing requires all the pieces to be correct.
That takes a LOT of money, unless you already have the core there.
I can’t stand him. Put him in charge of anything less than a number one team in the league and he would struggle. It’d be like Swansea trying to play the right way but getting relegated. He’s clever, in that he always chooses the right team to be in charge of, but he hasn’t got the balls for a real challenge.

A bit harsh to be fair to Pep. He’s put himself in a position to be able to pick his teams. Not my favourite guy but credit to where credit is due. I prefer Jose all the same and i hear all the what Pep would do if he was in charge of United. Well I think if Jose was in charge of City the past two seasons they’d be sitting with more than a league title.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

It was so much better we finished level on points before Pep and Jose took over, or was LVG a far superior manager to Pelligrini.

They had KDB, Aguero, Silva, Kompany, Fernandinho.We had 33 year old Carrick, Rooney, Mata, Smalling, Herrera as our best player in them positions.

They had superior players already, and anyone thinking otherwise is deluded.

 

[RobinLFC]

Not sure it’s that clear Pogue.

Not only the stats this season, but the performances of his squad compared to United's say otherwise.

Even if he wouldn't win anything, his brand of football is a thousand times more entertaining than what Mourinho offers, and denying that is sticking your head in the sand.

It's true he bought a lot of players for a lot of money but United/Mourinho could've done the same, couldn't you? He identified what positions needed strenghtening, bought the right players to fit his system and reaped the rewards from that, so fair play to him.

 

[SER19]

Certain words become attached to certain people as a result of media usage and internet forums.

People being fascinated by guardiola is one of these trends. I wasn't fascinated. Interested yes, unsurprised by parts, yes. I saw a professional manager talking about tactics without about the same insight as one would expect from any number of managers.

 

[Adam-Utd]

We haven’t got enough money to play the game his way.
It’s all well and good planning and executing an attacking and tactical way of playing, but Peps specific way of playing requires all the pieces to be correct.
That takes a LOT of money, unless you already have the core there.
I can’t stand him. Put him in charge of anything less than a number one team in the league and he would struggle. It’d be like Swansea trying to play the right way but getting relegated. He’s clever, in that he always chooses the right team to be in charge of, but he hasn’t got the balls for a real challenge.

Come on, yes he's spent a lot on good players like Walker/Jesus but the real work he's done is improving Sterling/Sane/De Bruyne/Silva.

That improvement hasn't come from "money" it's his coaching. Whether we like it or not he's improved them immensely, unfortunately we haven't seen that improvement so far.

Yes maybe his style wouldn't work with lesser players, but that doesn't really matter as it works with the best, he won't need to work with crap.

 

[cyberman]

Come on, yes he's spent a lot on good players like Walker/Jesus but the real work he's done is improving Sterling/Sane/De Bruyne/Silva.

That improvement hasn't come from "money" it's his coaching. Whether we like it or not he's improved them immensely, unfortunately we haven't seen that improvement so far.

Yes maybe his style wouldn't work with lesser players, but that doesn't really matter as it works with the best, he won't need to work with crap.

Sterling/Sane/De Bruyne/Silva.

200m worth of transfers right there.

 

[Lawman]

Not only the stats this season, but the performances of his squad compared to United's say otherwise.

Even if he wouldn't win anything, his brand of football is a thousand times more entertaining than what Mourinho offers, and denying that is sticking your head in the sand.

It's true he bought a lot of players for a lot of money but United/Mourinho could've done the same, couldn't you? He identified what positions needed strenghtening, bought the right players to fit his system and reaped the rewards from that, so fair play to him.

Being a better manager takes more than one season buddy. The fact is Jose and Pep have had magnificent management careers. I’m not about to write one of as better or worse after a season or two. Pep for me never quite cut Bayern and if anything they look better again now he’s gone. Just my opinion.

 

[Adisa]

My grammar making you laugh.

 

[pacifictheme]

Masterful management, the way he spent €245m on new defenders and a keeper was truly inspiring stuff.

We've spent a feck tonne post fergie and its almost all been crap. City are just better at spending money. A combined 160 million of pogba and lukaku versus 90 million on de bruyne and jesus for example. Add in sane and sterling at what? Another 70 million ish? Compared with di maria and martial for over 90 million. We spent the best part of 40 million on lindelof. 30 million on luke shaw.

I know that was selective but they're not out stripping us that much on money spent. Just on overall quality of players.

Edit: i'm not even saying all the players i've listed have been bad, but none of them have particularly outshone their city equivalent.

 

[Borden]

Ironically you aren't even joking, i'd swap Pep for Jose straight away if we had the chance.

Same. I mean, if he didn’t have cooties.

 

[SER19]

We've spent a feck tonne post fergie and its almost all been crap. City are just better at spending money. A combined 160 million of pogba and lukaku versus 90 million on de bruyne and jesus for example. Add in sane and sterling at what? Another 70 million ish? Compared with di maria and martial for over 90 million. We spent the best part of 40 million on lindelof. 30 million on luke shaw.

I know that was selective but they're not out stripping us that much on money spent. Just on overall quality of players.

Edit: i'm not even saying all the players i've listed have been bad, but none of them have particularly outshone their city equivalent.

Selective and inaccurate. Also does a good job at pointing out that guardiolas predecessors left a better squad in place, that he then went and spent a further shit tonne on

 

[Adisa]

Being a better manager takes more than one season buddy. The fact is Jose and Pep have had magnificent management careers. I’m not about to write one of as better or worse after a season or two. Pep for me never quite cut Bayern and if anything they look better again now he’s gone. Just my opinion.

Bayern don't look a better outfit to me.

 

[El Zoido]

Think some of the people here sleep with full sized Pep body pillows the way some of you go on about him. Wouldn’t it be easier to just start supporting City?

 

[Member 109952]

Not only the stats this season, but the performances of his squad compared to United's say otherwise.

Even if he wouldn't win anything, his brand of football is a thousand times more entertaining than what Mourinho offers, and denying that is sticking your head in the sand.

It's true he bought a lot of players for a lot of money but United/Mourinho could've done the same, couldn't you? He identified what positions needed strenghtening, bought the right players to fit his system and reaped the rewards from that, so fair play to him.

That's true from a neutral point of view but it's not really true when you look into it. We've spent £150m gross (£130m net) in each of the past two years - that looks to be our upper limit for spending. For instance we wanted Perisic last summer, but Inter wanted £50m+ and we couldn't spend that. City on the other hand spent £280m last summer (£200m net), and £200m (£170m net) the year before.

It's made even worse when you consider that £160m of our spend out of £300m - was on Pogba and Lukaku - two positions City already had equal players in (De Bruyne and Aguero). So we've been spending less to catch up to them (squad wise), whilst they've been spending more to get even better.

Though the football hasn't been great under Mourinho I'll concede that, and imo that's due to our poor wide attacking and full back options and the lack of signings in those positions (though still our best football this season in about 4 years). Mourinho has played very good football under Chelsea / Inter / Madrid, so I'm sure he can get back there. He himself has said they need to spend a lot more to get there, I just think he knows he has an upper limit of spending per year when compared to City.

 

[Adisa]

Don't think he'll spend much this summer. Can see one midfielder and another attacker coming in .

 

[The Bloody-Nine]

Not only the stats this season, but the performances of his squad compared to United's say otherwise.

Even if he wouldn't win anything, his brand of football is a thousand times more entertaining than what Mourinho offers, and denying that is sticking your head in the sand.

It's true he bought a lot of players for a lot of money but United/Mourinho could've done the same, couldn't you? He identified what positions needed strenghtening, bought the right players to fit his system and reaped the rewards from that, so fair play to him.

An exaggerating Liverpool fan? Well I never.

 

[Greck]

Same.

I'd also swap their signings. Prefer Pep's preference for skill and mobility over Jose's preference for palm trees in the middle of the park

 

[SER19]

Not only the stats this season, but the performances of his squad compared to United's say otherwise.

Even if he wouldn't win anything, his brand of football is a thousand times more entertaining than what Mourinho offers, and denying that is sticking your head in the sand.

It's true he bought a lot of players for a lot of money but United/Mourinho could've done the same, couldn't you? He identified what positions needed strenghtening, bought the right players to fit his system and reaped the rewards from that, so fair play to him.

In championship manager , yes. There are several variables other than players to sign and united as a club we’re and still are in poor shape since the monumental loss of Ferguson. Not forgetting that the absolute core of guardiolas title winning squad, and his best players by far, were already at the club.

When mourinho wins a title or even has us challenging closely, see how many players in the first eleven would have been here. Major rebuild versus mild rebuild

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Don't think he'll spend much this summer. Can see one midfielder and another attacker coming in .

He will spend about 150m in like 3 players. EPL and City tax still exists

 

[RobinLFC]

An exaggerating Liverpool fan? Well I never.

I didn't even have to watch any United games to reach that conclusion, just have to look at the incredible amount of moaning about your football in the match day threads on here to know I'm probably right. It's not even a controversial opinion imo - City (and Liverpool fwiw) play one of the most entertaining styles of football in Europe, while United (and Mourinho) just don't. Whether it leads to trophies and stuff (good chance ours won't) is another discussion.

 

[OldSchoolManc]

Don't think he'll spend much this summer. Can see one midfielder and another attacker coming in .

At 100m each.
They have let everyone know they have unlimited money. No team is going to sell a top player to them cheaply and I can’t see him buying anything but Grade A players.

 

[DanNistelrooy]

I don't dispute that he is the best manager in the world however there is a huge caveat that needs to be added to that - he needs the best players and thus the funds for his system to work. I don't believe that he will be able to be successful with a more average set of players and a smaller budget (e.g. what Klopp did with Dortmund / Liverpool to an extent or Jose with Porto/Inter).

He's a manager who makes good players/teams great so City have done unbelievably well to get him, the whole planning of his appointment should be applauded and something we very clearly lacked post-SAF.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Sterling/Sane/De Bruyne/Silva.

200m worth of transfers right there.

Eh? Pep didn't sign all those players did he. Yes they've got a great squad but let's be honest he's improved them immensely. Sterling couldn't hit a barn door and now he's suddenly scoring 20+.

I didn't even have to watch any United games to reach that conclusion, just have to look at the incredible amount of moaning about your football in the match day threads on here to know I'm probably right. It's not even a controversial opinion imo - City (and Liverpool fwiw) play one of the most entertaining styles of football in Europe, while United (and Mourinho) just don't. Whether it leads to trophies and stuff (good chance ours won't) is another discussion.

It's a sore subject and obviously die hard united fans don't want to admit even an inch that we are boring, but we are..

If it was the other way around we wouldn't shut up about it Jose has got us back to challenging which is the important thing so far, but he has to be able to kick on from here, i'm just not sure he's got it in him.

 

[tomaldinho1]

City were a mess too. Ageing full backs all 4 of which were in their 30s. An injury prone Kompany, a ridiculed by many Otamendi, Mangala and a departed Demichelis in defence.

City had a core in 15-16 to build from but so did United

This is a myth that Pep's been peddling. Given we finished second to them this season, let's look at the original core groups side by side. The difference in overall quality is massive:

CITY (15/16)
Elite players: Kompany, KDB, Silva, Fernandinho, Aguero
Good players: Sterling, Otamendi, Kolarov, Clichy, Zabaleta, Hart, Nasri
Squad players: Toure, Delph, Iheanacho, Sagna, Demichelis
Flops/Injured: Mangala

GK: Hart was a weakness
FB: 4 solid specialist full backs (any would have started for us)
CB: Good overall - Demichelis was terrible.
Midfield: Perfect.
Attack: Aguero... best striker in the PL for years

UNITED (15/16)
Elite players: DDG
Good players: Jones, Smalling, Valencia, Carrick, Herrera, Mata, Martial
Squad players: Rojo, McNair, Blind, Scheiderlin, Fellaini, Young, Rooney, Lingard
Flops/Injured: Depay, Shaw, Schweinsteiger

GK: Perfect
FB: None. Shaw injured, Valencia is a winger and Young/Blind also not full backs
CB: Good overall - McNair was a joke
Midfield: Bang average
Attack: Nada - the fact Rashford broke through says it all about the form/fitness of the senior players

 

[cyberman]

Eh? Pep didn't sign all those players did he. Yes they've got a great squad but let's be honest he's improved them immensely. Sterling couldn't hit a barn door and now he's suddenly scoring 20+.

He didn't sign them but it does show us the cost of signing players that are needed for a Pep side.
The board were working towards Pep in the few windows before he joined. They are his players. All 200m of them.

 

[The Bloody-Nine]

I didn't even have to watch any United games to reach that conclusion, just have to look at the incredible amount of moaning about your football in the match day threads on here to know I'm probably right. It's not even a controversial opinion imo - City (and Liverpool fwiw) play one of the most entertaining styles of football in Europe, while United (and Mourinho) just don't. Whether it leads to trophies and stuff (good chance ours won't) is another discussion.

You're using the f*cking matchday threads to conclude that our football is terrible?

In that case, you will also have concluded that our manager is terrible, every player in our squad is terrible, Sean Dyche (or Nicky Butt) should be manager, and that our tunnel emerging onto the pitch at one end rather then the side is a 'shambles'.

Matchday threads, FFS....

 

[Thunderhead]

This is a myth that Pep's been peddling. Given we finished second to them this season, let's look at the original core groups side by side. The difference in overall quality is massive:

where has Pep been peddling this myth?

 

[RobinLFC]

You're using the f*cking matchday threads to conclude that our football is terrible?

In that case, you will also have concluded that our manager is terrible, every player in our squad is terrible, Sean Dyche (or Nicky Butt) should be manager, and that our tunnel emerging onto the pitch at one end rather then the side is a 'shambles'.

Matchday threads, FFS....

I wasn't serious, but it's certainly an indication. Your football is quite dull (and negative, something which Mourinho has been criticized for plenty during his career). It's certainly a world away from what City and Liverpool showed this season. Result wise, it might be not that far apart because Mourinho's style is effective more often than not, but entertaiment wise - not even close.

 

[Thunderhead]

He didn't sign them but it does show us the cost of signing players that are needed for a Pep side.
The board were working towards Pep in the few windows before he joined. They are his players. All 200m of them.

Yep, I'd agree with this 100%, having a DoF helps massively, if Pep bogs off tomorrow you can bet we'll try and find a manager that can work with the squad, United (and this isn't a dig) appear to just buy players for the manager at the time with no thought for what the next manager may require.