This is Pep Guardiola. The moment he decides to leave, every single big club will line up to get him.
'Pep' Guardiola sack watch
- Thread starter Classical Mechanic
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This is Pep Guardiola. The moment he decides to leave, every single big club will line up to get him.
Don't really get how people can say Pep is supposedly not a top manager as he apparently relies on top players for his tactics to work yet Klopp who's Liverpool defense was an utter shambles until he got a £70m keeper, £75m CB and £40m CDM is supposedly a genius who can turn water into wine.
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And Pep spent half billion for his defense which double what Klopp did but still have shambolic defense and can’t win CL.
It’s not about relying top players, any manager needs top players. My argument is about his ability to build a team. Major difference between Pep & Klopp there.
More than 500m pounds spending just to build his defense and defensive mid, still not solving the defense issue. I wonder how much he needs to spend to build his midfield if he never have Fernandinho, KDB & Silva to begin with. On top of that, finding world class striker like Aguero would cost him 100m plus at least.
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I never use this comeback as it’s completely unconstructive but in this case...stop crying. You sound like a hormonal teenager.
Will they pay him as much as Man City though? Pep simply wanted to get a contract from the top payer in the industry tied down, to ensure his family can get through this pandemic no matter how long (It can be many years before economy recovers).
To an extent, the positive spin you’re putting on things is laudable, but I suspect your viewpoint is being biased by your loyalty to City.
Looking from the outside, your problems are hugely pronounced. Poor ‘keeper, flaky full backs, only Laporte is competent at centre half, your midfield plods and is now easy to cut through, your wide options suddenly look quite ordinary and the centre forward position is a major issue. You still have two world class players in De Bruyne and Sterling, although both are out of sorts. Yes, Aguero is in that bracket on paper and past achievements but his body cannot keep up anymore. You are not winning anything of note this season.
What is notable to me is how the goalposts are being shifted to avoid Pep receiving too much scrutiny. You have people in this thread talking about him doing the job of laying long term philosophical foundations. What a load of nonsense. He is the best paid and backed manager in the world and should be delivering accordingly. Truthfully, he has under achieved at City relative to the resources available. He has also done, along with the higher ups, a poor job of managing transition. If he was always looking to stay long term, then they should have seen Kompany, Silva, Aguero, etc. ending (or coming to the end) and had a proper plan of action.
Youre judging these players after the fact. Nobody thought VVD was this kind of player. Hell Pep turned him down becuse he didnt think he was worth the fee.
Are you having a laugh? I'm pretty sure Pep could never work another day in his life and his family is set for life money wise.
You think Pep is struggling for money?!
VVD fair enough but the other two were widely considered to be amoungst the best in their respective positions. Also on that note shouldn't the same metrics be used for Pep's favour? He's developed many players to a higher level than people previously thought they were capable of, especially at Barcelona.
I really dont think so. He took over a Barca side that was CL champions a few seasons before and got to the CL semi, nearly knocking our 08 side out, the season before he took over. The Spain side that dominated Euros 08 had the core of Peps side as well.
Its why he needs the big money, the elite players. He hasnt a very impressive record at making good players great imo.
If someone said in 2008 that Xavi (who was already 28) would become arguably the best CM of his generation he'd have got laughed at and sectioned, likewise Iniesta. Also most of the key attacking components of that 2006 CL winning team were done, Dinho lost his motivation, Deco was finished, likewise Guily, Larsson had left, Eto'o was still excellent though and obviously Messi.
They'd have still become a top team without him, but a superhuman bunch of freaks who forced pretty much everyone to play like underdogs hoping for an FA Cup upset? In my opinion no chance.
He's been losing an awful lot of games over the past year to the so called big clubs, it's not something you would use to think of happening with Guardiola
When you mention Xavi and Iniesta, i feel people forget that they`ve already dominated under a different coach, Luis Aragones, who played them together in the 08 Euros to great effect.
I give credit to Pep for a lot of things, but playing those two together was not his idea, it had already been done months prior.
Pool, Chelsea and Spurs are Top3 right now, that's clear. Then it's a fight for 4th between Leicester, City, United and maybe Arsenal or Everton. Exciting season ahead and we'll see how it looks like six weeks from now.
Why are people so knee jerk?
There’s nothing “clear” about the top three, certainly not in the case of Chelsea and Spurs. In a month’s time, all three clubs could easily be outside those top positions.
Xavi and Iniesta tiki takaed sides to death in Euro 08. That side was coming together before Pep even got there.
Well, RIGHT NOW they are. I don't think that's 'knee-jerk'.Why are people so knee jerk?
There’s nothing “clear” about the top three, certainly not in the case of Chelsea and Spurs. In a month’s time, all three clubs could easily be outside those top positions.
He turned City down. It was Maguire where City offered 'only' £60-65m.
Two weeks ago, it would have been a different configuration. I genuinely believe the season is wide open.
I seen him in an interview a while back and when he was asked who had the best hair in the league his reply was something like ''me when I get my new cut''
This is what he came up with
Why are people so knee jerk?
There’s nothing “clear” about the top three, certainly not in the case of Chelsea and Spurs. In a month’s time, all three clubs could easily be outside those top positions.
agreed. It’s 8/9 games into the season. After the first 2 games, Spurs looked awful, a mighty 6 games later they have been in good form, and got to the top of the league. It’s going to be a roller coaster of a season, and there is nothing set and nothing clear about what’s going to happen.
I think Pep has been found out. He has one style of playing, and it worked so well for a decade, especially with the well established teams he took over. But football has moved on, and coaches have adapted their styles to nullify the set up that Pep plays. He leaves huge gaps in behind, so if you play on the counter you can destroy them every time you win the ball back. As we saw against Leicester, there is no plan B, they were being picked off with ease and he just kept on playing the same formation, still throwing people forward while being destroyed at the other end. And now he is in unknown territory, because he has to build a new team, and they are buying duds.
I think his style would work but for whatever reason he gave up on power, pace and stamina which was provided by Sane, Fernandinho or Kompany and now it's like watching current Barca or Arsenal in Wenger's last 2-3 seasons. It kind of fell apart when Rodri and Mahrez became XI regulars. We'll see what he does next but City became too weak in midfield and slow all over the pitch.
I don't think Pep has been found out, it has always been the case that if you catch his teams on the counter you can tear them apart. We've done it three times in the past season. Madrid repeatedly ripped the guts out of Pep's Bayern team etc.
The real difference is that this City team is just not as good as Pep's best teams.
The writing and hype around football massively overestimates the importance of a coach. Yes, obviously, the coach makes a difference. There is a difference between Sir Alex Ferguson and David Moyes. However, as Pep said to Duncan Castles, as Gary Neville has said repeatedly, the foundation is recruitment. Klopp is a brilliant coach but he couldn't turn Lovren into Van Dijk or Karius into Alisson. You need to buy.
Pep's tactics would work as well as they ever did if he had prime Messi, Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets. However, he does not have those players. He does not even have players as good as he had two or three years ago. Aguero's injured more, Kompany is gone, David Silva is gone etc. They're still spending, they're still bringing in very good players but great players..? And to make Pep's tactics work you need great players.
I am surprised City gave him a new two year deal. It has felt like he was coming to the end of a cycle and, without really, really smart buying, I don't see how he fundamentally arrests the decline. I'm not saying City are going to drop like a stone but Rodri isn't Fernandinho, Jesus isn't a top, top striker. The City team is stagnating, Pep must see that. They need more and I don't know if they are willing to do what's needed to get it. This thing of refusing to spend more than c.£60-70m in up front transfer fees is interesting. Some would call it principled. Still, will it get the owners the Champions League they desperately want? Maybe. Bayern haven't spent like mad but they've put together a brilliant squad. However, the City buys just haven't banged like Bayern's and I think we've seen enough from Sorriano and Txixi to think they aren't capable of a similar level of scouting to Bayern.
Playing Xavi and Iniesta together was the biggest problem Rijkaard had at the club, he never managed to find a midfield balance with the two of them + Deco. Up until his last season in Barcelona, Deco was arguably at the same level of the other two, if not better. That's why Iniesta didn't really became the key player he was from 2008 onward, because he was slotted on cut inside winger role.
Guardiola came and threw Deco out of the club right away, he bet everything on those two, and threw some guy he coached in the Spanish 4th division to hold everything together behind them.
The so called "core" behind Luis Aragones' Spain wasn't they key behind that team, Puyol, Iniesta and Xavi were the only Barcelona players that got any minute in the knockout stage, and from them you can basically discount Puyol being a midfield or creative influece at all. You can't say that two guys moved that team at will because Iniesta wasn't better than Silva at that point, and as much as Xavi had a great tournament, he was perfectly complemented by Villa, Torres, Silva, Ramos, Capdevilla, Senna and Fabregas, none of them had any business with Barcelona.
The core came later, when Del Bosque took the players from the Guardiola era, handed them the keys and sprinkled it with top class from Real Madrid and other teams.
Probably had it written into his contract that he can't be sacked.
Would you sack or keep Pep? (Poll reopened)
Simple enough thread and in my opinion the topic deserves a poll following performances and results over the past 20 or so matches.
Performances aren't as good as we had under previous managers and neither is the win %.
Mods please can you add a poll to the thread?
Simple enough thread and in my opinion the topic deserves a poll following performances and results over the past 20 or so matches.
Performances aren't as good as we had under previous managers and neither is the win %.
Mods please can you add a poll to the thread?
Pep was supposed to be City's "Endgame". Their whole footballing structure were built for many years with the idea that Pep would someday come and become the last, biggest piece of that puzzle. If anything, City coming to the end of a cycle made them needed Pep even more. All of City's squad rebuild in the past was solely to serve Pep's reign. They need Pep more than anyone to build another team cycle, because his philosophy is exactly the club's ethos. (Ironically, this also exposed City as a small time club as their whole organization is smaller influence-wise than the figure of just one person)
Spain wasn't playing Tiki taka at the euros then, and Iniesta started the competition on the bench, and was positioned as a left wing foward when he came in.
And how can you say the side was coming together by just naming players and in another context (NT competition)?
Good point. Hadn't thought of it like that.
He's been a poor keeper in a season where we got 100 points, nothing has changed there. Our CB's are the best they've been in years, Cancelo seems to be turning into a better LB than either Zinchenko or Delph.
Our midfield I completely agree on, very plodding and thats on Pep, his team selection there is baffling I'll give you that. I also would say only KDB is world class but our attack is still pretty decent it just needs to click, this same attack less Ferrran Torres scored 102 goals last season with Aguero injured for a large part.
Like yourselves we are nowhere near the crisis people are making us out to be. I would say a couple of tweaks from being a quite good side. A team of Ederson, Walker, Dias, Laporte, Cancelo, Gundogan, KDB, Foden, Torres/Bernardo, Kun/Jesus and Sterling is easily one of the strongest all round in the league. It doesn't have the attacking pace and power of Spurs or Liverpool but its good enough to bang in a lot of goals. The defence is much better Eddie being Eddie aside (a very average shot stopper who luckily rarely has to actually save the ball).
I wouldn't say Pep has underachieved, I believe in 4 seasons he's had 3rd, 1st, 1st, 2nd. He's failed in the CL big time but in the prem he's been good, though that said failure this season and 2 titles in 5 and his grade goes from a C to below an F. Its a big season for him. Along with midfield I will also completely agree with you on handling the transition, its been completely botched but I don't feel to the level people think. With regards Kompany, I think he had blind faith in Stones and Garcia which turned out to be a disaster. The reailty was last season we had Otamendi, Stones, Laporte and Garcia as CB's, he only plumped for Fernandinho after he realized the others couldn't cut it without Laporte but the squad had 2 players per position. With Silva he had both Gundogan and Foden so again well covered, Kun is the big one as he's always injured and Jesus can't be the only striker.
For me the big issue with our transition is losing guts in the team, of all Pep's signing (our signings during his time whoever made them), there are too many players with lots of talent but not willing to run through walls. Only Bernardo, Jesus and Dias seem like real fighters. Walker (literally only pace), Mahrez, Gundo, Rodri, Laporte, Cancelo, Ederson are all lacking a will to win, not players I'd like to be in the trenches with. Thats on Pep and the recruitment team though, too many who are soft when the going gets tough. I will also say Cancelo has been turning it around since the covid break so I have hope for him (preferably at right back with a new LB)
If we win our next two and get something from the derby, once all their tales are up, I'd be genuinely surprised to see us lose before the nightmare February/early March we have coming up. To sum up and apologies for the novel we're never gonna have the team of 2 years ago back, thats pretty obvious. Gone are the days of 100 points and sweeping the big teams aside. But our team is still more than good enough to win the league and I'm still optimistic we will once we click up top.
This guy gets it.
With regards the last paragraph, many have said he needs to rebuild a team to prove himself, this is his chance. I'm all on team Pep but he really needs to get the next couple of seasons right. Bayern don't need to spend a whole lot because they can cherry pick. They know that they can play hardball and players will run their contracts down to get there. Not a luxury City (or anyone in England has). They can simply say "Nah we're not paying, we'll wait". They did it with Lewa, Sane etc... Perks of being far bigger than anyone else int he league. Thats not gonna happen at City.
Be interesting to see how he handles a rebuild.
I think we all know what his main strategy will be. Spend like a drunken sailor and hope something sticks
From an objective pov, they should get Odegaard as he is the one most likely to be able to do David Silva things, and they should get Haaland as a successor to Aguero. Jesus is decent, but he is not a goalscorer. And KDB needs help.
They've lost their spark. The defence is ropey, attack has declined a fair bit over since the Sterling, Aguero and Sane days, and there's just a generally lethargy and soft touch to the team. Liverpool win the same games City end up drawing or losing. That killer instinct and dynamism seems to be amiss.
Rodri for me is a player who epitomises them from what I see of them off and on. Has technical ability but just seems a little padestrian and vanilla at the highest level in the PL.
Rodri for me is a player who epitomises them from what I see of them off and on. Has technical ability but just seems a little padestrian and vanilla at the highest level in the PL.
People are overstating the contract I think. Not signing, or signing a single year would lead to a season clouded with uncertainty and paper gossip about his stability in the job. 2 years is the bare minimum he could sign and if they continue as they are he'll leave in the summer
Messi was exactly what Guardiola needed, even just for a year. They place nice football but they're missing a star player who'll provide a spark.