Pep - Doping (?) | Are PEDs being used by footballers

It also begs the question of what Leicester City were doing when they won the title.
  • They had the second lowest amount of injuries in the league, despite using only 19 players during the season and and even smaller group of regulars.
  • scored the highest amount of goals in the final 15 minutes of games in the league
  • Topped the league in sprints
  • Their star players were all plucked from obscurity in lower leagues and then proceeded to improve dramatically at Leicester. The donkey-to-racehorse effect?
    • Mahrez just this summer was dumped because of doping uncertainty over the summer
    • Kante is basically superhuman
    • Vardy is also quite the athletic specimen
  • Everybody at Leicester had a dramatic turnaround that season, many of them at a quite late stage of their career.
  • Their fitness the season before was nothing like it was that season. Inhouse, a lot of it was attributed to their best-in-class focus on sports and fitness science. Incidentally, they leaned on the same company that Juventus uses.
As an aside, from looking at Leicester also learned that Bournemouth topped the distance covered charts that season as well. Which means they've topped that chart 3 out of the last 4 seasons. Uncanny.
 
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This is a very interesting article on the history of doping in football. Including this nugget from Gary Neville, which illustrates well how it all works:

When the 1998 World Cup started, some of the players started taking injections from Glenn’s favourite medic, a Frenchman called Dr Rougier. After some of the lads said they’d felt a real burst of energy, I decided to seize any help on offer. So many of the players decided to go for it before that Argentina match that there was a queue to see the doctor​

Neville probably just decided not to think too hard about it, ergo not really doping.
 
B20 said:
It also begs the question of what Leicester City were doing when they won the title.
  • They had the second lowest amount of injuries in the league, despite using only 19 players during the season and and even smaller group of regulars.
  • scored the highest amount of goals in the final 15 minutes of games in the league
  • Topped the league in sprints
  • Their star players were all plucked from obscurity in lower leagues and then proceeded to improve dramatically at Leicester. The donkey-to-racehorse effect?
    • Mahrez just this summer was dumped because of doping uncertainty over the summer
    • Kante is basically superhuman
    • Vardy is also quite the athletic specimen
  • Everybody at Leicester had a dramatic turnaround that season, many of them at a quite late stage of their career.
  • Their fitness the season before was nothing like it was that season. Inhouse, a lot of it was attributed to their best-in-class focus on sports and fitness science. Incidentally, they leaned on the same company that Juventus uses.
As an aside, from looking at Leicester also learned that Bournemouth topped the distance covered charts that season as well. Which means they've topped that chart 3 out of the last 4 seasons. Uncanny.
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I do not see the rationale in suspecting Leicester of impropriety in their title winning campaign and at the same time absolving your team of every possibility that maybe because they are humans too playing in one of the biggest sport competitions in the world, they could have something to do with the menace too.

I and many others found it very surprising that Liverpool was able to keep most of her key players fit virtually all season while for the most part the players sidelined had speedy recoveries. When you also consider that Liverpool went all the way in two of the toughest competitions in europe last term and you factor in their playing style that is so demanding, you'd be better off refusing the temptation to examine further. Leicester on the other hand were very reserved and energy saving in their playing style. I even recall that in the second half of that season they got so many 1-0 wins playing very compact and disciplined.

Not saying there's anything to the aforementioned but I wouldn't have you put a negative slant on Leicester's glorious title win whilst exonerating Liverpool from possibility of wrongdoing.
 
Don't think this is a question about who is using PEDs in the best leagues in the world. It is more of a question about who doesn't.
A majority of the players/teams use it in one form or another, and then there are those who use to a higher extent i.e. PEDs with better effect or more often...

With the money involved and available combined with an outdated and infrequent testing system and the benefits from performing a little better creates a situation where the "logical" thing is to use PEDs.
 
Irwin99 said:
Could he not just take finasteride to balance whatever is causing his baldness if it was accelerating so quickly ?
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Finasteride itself is a banned substance. Its been used as a masking agent for other substances.
 
Bearded One said:
I do not see the rationale in suspecting Leicester of impropriety in their title winning campaign and at the same time absolving your team of every possibility that maybe because they are humans too playing in one of the biggest sport competitions in the world, they could have something to do with the menace too.

I and many others found it very surprising that Liverpool was able to keep most of her key players fit virtually all season while for the most part the players sidelined had speedy recoveries. When you also consider that Liverpool went all the way in two of the toughest competitions in europe last term and you factor in their playing style that is so demanding, you'd be better off refusing the temptation to examine further. Leicester on the other hand were very reserved and energy saving in their playing style. I even recall that in the second half of that season they got so many 1-0 wins playing very compact and disciplined.

Not saying there's anything to the aforementioned but I wouldn't have you put a negative slant on Leicester's glorious title win whilst exonerating Liverpool from possibility of wrongdoing.
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I didn't actually exonerate my own team, so stick that in your beard and smoke it.
 
B20 said:
I didn't actually exonerate my own team, so stick that in your beard and smoke it.
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Maybe you did not exonerate Liverpool in the post you dedicated to Leicester but you did in your previous posts when others pointed out their reservations about the team's incredible fittness and performance levels.
 
Bearded One said:
Maybe you did not exonerate Liverpool in the post you dedicated to Leicester but you did in your previous posts when others pointed out their reservations about the team's incredible fittness and performance levels.
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B20 said:
I can't say with any certainty liverpool are not doping. With Klopp's character, I want to believe we wouldn't. It's hard to interpret a case like Sakho, but I'd feel a lot safer about it if Klopp actually acknowledged the issue of doping in the sport in the way Wenger did, as opposed to trivialising it, which at best makes him greatly naive.
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B20 said:
Yeah, apparently all the players take the "isotopic drink" he developed. It's been tested and approved though.
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B20 said:
In fairness, we also had the second highest numbers of injuries last season.
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@B20

Everytime someone raised a suspicion you tried to explain it away. I'd have viewed your response to the guy that raised the issue of most of your starting 11 fit all season as more objective if you had said something like, "we had a high number of injuries but players like Robertson and Firminho recovered pretty fast and were out for as little time as possible" or statements like "most of the plenty injuries did not really touch the core of the squad".

To my point, you are trying to make people see why we shouldn't fully trust Leicester's title win which is not very bad in itself but when you go ahead to make people who have reason not to fully trust Liverpool's brilliant season, to see otherwise without being fully objective about it, then your viewpoints may not be taken on board.
 
I find it rather suspicious that there are hardly any footballers getting cought while in all other major sports, you have much more cases
 
Escobar said:
I find it rather suspicious that there are hardly any footballers getting cought while in all other major sports, you have much more cases
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Me too, Im not convinced that Guardiolas teams have been doping, but you had the that doctor that was busted who said that he if told the truth Spain would lose their WC medal. If doping in rife in all major sports, it's naive to think it's not happening in football as if footballers for some reason are more ethical than other professional athletes.
 
Shamana said:
Me too, Im not convinced that Guardiolas teams have been doping, but you had the that doctor that was busted who said that he if told the truth Spain would lose their WC medal. If doping in rife in all major sports, it's naive to think it's not happening in football as if footballers for some reason are more ethical than other professional athletes.
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I would be surprised if EPO is not used extensively in football all over the world. It is very difficult and expensive to test and hard to detect even then. Guardiola and Spains NT have been linked to EPO for a long time. And it brings effects that is very effective for football, especially if you play a high-pressing game.
Dont think that steroids are used that much, except maybe when a player is returning from a difficult knee-injury or something and the probability of him being tested is very low.
Of course it exists.
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To detect EPO you basically need to do a complicated blood test, and so far as I know thats not done in football. Its just urine tests.
 
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Johan07 said:
I would be surprised if EPO is not used extensively in football all over the world. It is very difficult and expensive to test and hard to detect even then. Guardiola and Spains NT have been linked to EPO for a long time. And it brings effects that is very effective for football, especially if you play a high-pressing game.
Dont think that steroids are used that much, except maybe when a player is returning from a difficult knee-injury or something and the probability of him being tested is very low.
Of course it exists.
EDIT
To detect EPO you basically need to do a complicated blood test, and so far as I know thats not done in football. Its just urine tests.
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http://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/anti-doping/testing

Both urine and blood samples are collected. Urine probably when testing is done close to competition (random) and both when planned. Urine will contain traces for a much shorter time.
 
Handré1990 said:
http://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/anti-doping/testing

Both urine and blood samples are collected. Urine probably when testing is done close to competition (random) and both when planned. Urine will contain traces for a much shorter time.
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Thats interesting. Thank you.
It still does not mean that they test for EPO though. Its something that is extremely difficult and expensive to do. EPO is a big "problem" in MMA as well, where the testing is much tougher than in European football. There is just a small part of the blood tests there (administered by USADA) that are actually tested for EPO. If you micro-dose it its almost impossible to detect.
I am not an expert but I would imagine that EPO is the biggest "problem" (depending on your view on doping) in football. Not so much common steroids like stanozolol, trenbolone, etc.
 
Yeah, agree with @Johan07 that EPO is probably pretty common in football, I think Tyler Hamilton also said that football (soccer) players have told him about doping in their profession. It's ironically even more suspicious that basically no one ever got busted for EPO in football, if you had one pop up here and there it would at least confirm that they'd have a system against it in place. But no case whatsoever.

Football is the perfect environment to enable soft doping structures. It doesn't make a massive difference which would incite crazy methods like aggressive anabolica or blood doping but a few adjustments definitely help a couple of percent. EPO is perfect in that regard on a whole team basis; keep the hematocrit level consistently high, especially at the end of the season but don't surpass crazy levels like 50 (for own health as well as not to raise suspicion). Individually pretty sure some work with the usual stuff like testosterone or hormone growth to make a few adjustments but here as well not on crazy levels because massively bulking up etc. simply doesn't help that much in football (different story in e.g. basketball where they pop someone from time to time).
Most importantly, the governing bodies in football are as rotten or even worse than the UCI, so I'm sure everything is kept under control in regards to aggressive testing in order not to damage the sport. We all constantly joke how corrupt the likes of FIFA and UEFA are, there's no way they'd shoot themselves in their own foot by pushing an anti doping agenda. Wouldn't surprise me if a couple of high profile cases have already been swept under the carpet like the UCI did with Armstrong in 2001.
 
Kasper said:
Yeah, agree with @Johan07 that EPO is probably pretty common in football, I think Tyler Hamilton also said that football (soccer) players have told him about doping in their profession. It's ironically even more suspicious that basically no one ever got busted for EPO in football, if you had one pop up here and there it would at least confirm that they'd have a system against it in place. But no case whatsoever.

Football is the perfect environment to enable soft doping structures. It doesn't make a massive difference which would incite crazy methods like aggressive anabolica or blood doping but a few adjustments definitely help a couple of percent. EPO is perfect in that regard on a whole team basis; keep the hematocrit level consistently high, especially at the end of the season but don't surpass crazy levels like 50 (for own health as well as not to raise suspicion). Individually pretty sure some work with the usual stuff like testosterone or hormone growth to make a few adjustments but here as well not on crazy levels because massively bulking up etc. simply doesn't help that much in football (different story in e.g. basketball where they pop someone from time to time).
Most importantly, the governing bodies in football are as rotten or even worse than the UCI, so I'm sure everything is kept under control in regards to aggressive testing in order not to damage the sport. We all constantly joke how corrupt the likes of FIFA and UEFA are, there's no way they'd shoot themselves in their own foot by pushing an anti doping agenda. Wouldn't surprise me if a couple of high profile cases have already been swept under the carpet like the UCI did with Armstrong in 2001.
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Eh? Litterally the whole leadership was busted for corruption! It’s not a joke, it’s a fact. The bloke who took over from Blatter, Infantino, who was supposed to clean up the mess, had some e-mails leaked where he instructs the owners of City how to circumvent FFP.

@Johan07 I agree, my point was merely to show that even though they collect blood samples, and I’ll bet you some Svenska kronor they test for EPO, at least occasionally, I’ve never heard about a football player who has tested positive. Very strange.
 
Handré1990 said:
Eh? Litterally the whole leadership was busted for corruption! It’s not a joke, it’s a fact. The bloke who took over from Blatter, Infantino, who was supposed to clean up the mess, had some e-mails leaked where he instructs the owners of City how to circumvent FFP
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Uhm, I think you misunderstood me there, I wasn't denying that they're corrupt, I was making an argument on how their corruption facilitates doping?
Maybe I should've written "We all know" instead of "we joke".
 
Liverpool are using it 100% and it is why they have almost no injuries and can play the same 11 all year.

Seriously though I think everyone uses different drugs. They probably push the boundaries of what is legal in these areas as much as people dive and cheat in games.
 
Paul_Scholes18 said:
Liverpool are using it 100% and it is why they have almost no injuries and can play the same 11 all year.

Seriously though I think everyone uses different drugs. They probably push the boundaries of what is legal in these areas as much as people dive and cheat in games.
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Doubt it, the whole team? Liverpool are many things but I don't believe they're cheaters. Or it wouldn't be 30 years since their last PL imo..
 
TRUERED89 said:
Doubt it, the whole team? Liverpool are many things but I don't believe they're cheaters. Or it wouldn't be 30 years since their last PL imo..
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Don't think they are cheating any less than others, but probably not more either. Only thing they do is having some biased refs in the VAR rooms when they play ;).
 
Paul_Scholes18 said:
Liverpool are using it 100% and it is why they have almost no injuries and can play the same 11 all year.

Seriously though I think everyone uses different drugs. They probably push the boundaries of what is legal in these areas as much as people dive and cheat in games.
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To be clear, the reason why they are currently playing Henderson in central defence and Lallana as a defensive midfielder is because they have "almost no injuries" and not because Van Dijk, Matip, Lovren, Fabinho and Wijnaldum are currently all out injured?
 
Paul_Scholes18 said:
Don't think they are cheating any less than others, but probably not more either. Only thing they do is having some biased refs in the VAR rooms when they play ;).
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We got that same flack during the glory years, don't believe that either. Officials are just terribly inconsistent. Not to say no officials have ever been lenient to certain individuals/teams or been bribed. But you have to give Pool credit for their consistency and clinical displays unfortunately.
 
Liverpool need to be seriously looked into in my opinion. They play and train at possibly the highest intensity we’ve ever seen in football and use practically the same 11 with little to no injuries for years now. Seems really suspicious.
 
Clearly Pogba isn’t taking anything. Don’t expect City to suffer from this as they will get away with it as they did with FFP the first time and likely the second time. PL will need proof this guy was jacking up Kompany and co before a match before any sanction will apply. Several Rugby Union and League players have been found out. If you look at Halfpenny the Welsh full back ten years ago and now, you would have to imagine more than shovelling weights was involved but I’m not accusing anyone of taking drugs.
 
We need to give Mata some of these things. Sanchez stopped taking it here too so no wonder he turned to shitm
 
It's widespread across most sports, recovery times from some athletes is incredible. Pep has form personally & even by association with Dr Fuentes it further adds cynicism to his reputation.
 
If you think about it for entertainment sake they need pro athletes performing at a high level for full seasons, so I absolutely wouldn’t be surprised if a blind eye was turned on it.
 
GE said:
Liverpool need to be seriously looked into in my opinion. They play and train at possibly the highest intensity we’ve ever seen in football and use practically the same 11 with little to no injuries for years now. Seems really suspicious.
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My suspicions are that you didn't see our starting 11 the other night. VVD, Lovren and Matip all out (3 of our 4 centre backs). Fabinho, who would usually fill into the CB role in extreme circumstances was also out.
Alisson missed 2 months of the season due to injury and Salah has been struggling with an ankle injury for a few weeks now.
Other than that, we've been able to play practically the same 11 every game just like you said
 
Offsideagain said:
Clearly Pogba isn’t taking anything. Don’t expect City to suffer from this as they will get away with it as they did with FFP the first time and likely the second time. PL will need proof this guy was jacking up Kompany and co before a match before any sanction will apply. Several Rugby Union and League players have been found out. If you look at Halfpenny the Welsh full back ten years ago and now, you would have to imagine more than shovelling weights was involved but I’m not accusing anyone of taking drugs.
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Partly because any 20 year old rugby player will weigh more when they're 30? (Most people will full stop?)

Partly because he was dropped 10/11 years ago and told he was too small/light so he went on a specific gym/training plan to bulk up. (He's still only 13-14 stone.)

Partly as he became a Wales regular and like the rest of the squad, was put on a brutal training programme by Gatland to help with his "crashball" tactics.

Partly as the days of a small but nippy rugby player had gone, for the entire game not just Halfpenny/Wales. Most players around the world were bulking up... weights, shedloads of calories, EDT.
 
Speedy30 said:
My suspicions are that you didn't see our starting 11 the other night. VVD, Lovren and Matip all out (3 of our 4 centre backs). Fabinho, who would usually fill into the CB role in extreme circumstances was also out.
Alisson missed 2 months of the season due to injury and Salah has been struggling with an ankle injury for a few weeks now.
Other than that, we've been able to play practically the same 11 every game just like you said
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In a farty game v a nothing team from Mexico when you can actually get away with resting players, there is nothing wrong with van dick, just like there was nothing wrong with him when he pulled out of the Netherlands squad for unspecified circumstances a few months ago.
 
Can we as a fanbase just not do *gestures in general direction of thread* this.

For years and years we had paid off the refs, there was a conspiracy too stop Liverpool and other teams winning etc. etc. Let us just admit that there are better football teams than us at the minute and it is on their own merits. No need too be lower ourselves too how petty everyone else was being when we were on top.
 
Stobzilla said:
Can we as a fanbase just not do *gestures in general direction of thread* this.

For years and years we had paid off the refs, there was a conspiracy too stop Liverpool and other teams winning etc. etc. Let us just admit that there are better football teams than us at the minute and it is on their own merits. No need too be lower ourselves too how petty everyone else was being when we were on top.
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Exactly - you look at the way that both Liverpool and City attack in a 235 to draw the CB's out to create space with inverted or attacking wingbacks whilst we do nothing - all we talk about is drugs.

Just give them their time.
 
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