We talk about that on here because that’s what we've become used to seeing. Maybe not as stark of an example in the same important game but across his time here. He’s had periods of special play and periods where he’s literally cost us goals and games. He hasn’t seemed to tweak his game at all in response. It’s more of a shrug of the shoulders thing. Nobody is denying that he is wonderfully skilful. That’s not an agenda. That’s just the Pogba conundrum. If he was a little more intense for us I think he’d get an awful lot more more respect from PL fans in general.
6
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 27
- Goals
- 1
- Assists
- 9
- Yellow cards
- 9
- Red cards
- 1
- Status
We talk about that on here because that’s what we've become used to seeing. Maybe not as stark of an example in the same important game but across his time here. He’s had periods of special play and periods where he’s literally cost us goals and games. He hasn’t seemed to tweak his game at all in response. It’s more of a shrug of the shoulders thing. Nobody is denying that he is wonderfully skilful. That’s not an agenda. That’s just the Pogba conundrum. If he was a little more intense for us I think he’d get an awful lot more more respect from PL fans in general.
I've seen nearly of our players criticized for a single mistake and few pages about it too.
Don't want to derail the thread, this was the post from you when we were linked with Mkhi. Not saying you didn't rate Mane but it was obvious what the general feeling around both transfers.
Anyways not to point out or anything, just to give a general idea on how the transfer was seen at that time. Tbf few German fans highlighted his mentality might be a problem.
No just a simple answer to the question….the team that Pogba joined, was it better than the team Bruno joined. It’s really simple. Hindsight can be used. Whatever you want. Just a simple answer.
In fact I’m struggling as to why you wouldn’t use hindsight. Without it Veron was a huge success and Pogba might have been Ballon Dor.
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Have you seen another of our players have the entire half time conversation around them losing a man at a corner, when he was blocked by another player? Or seen Gary Neville start to blame them for a goal, realise it was someone else….and not criticise the other player (an actual defender too) ? ((West Ham away last year))
Go on and tell us which team you thought was closer to win title, that answers your question.
I’m not talking about on here. I’m talking about the narrative set by the media which leads to people’s formed opinions. Players get tackled all the time. It’s generally not a big deal for anyone else.
Yeah I rated Mkhi quite a bit then. I think Mane was a safer bet - not sure what I posted about both players in 15/16 but I praised Mane a lot too. But yeah I note your point, Mkhi was overrated by a lot of us.
Bringing this back to Pogba, though, do you reckon we should offer him a new deal if it means breaking the ceiling that we currently have for our players (for long term deals I mean, not Ronaldo's 2 year one)?
Do you think tchouameni could get more out of him? I was impressed with them as a duo in the second half of the Belgium game. I didn’t catch last nights game but the reports are very strong across the board.
No, I don't think we should break wage structure (if we have one). I rate him highly but there are limitations too especially when it comes to fitting him and Bruno as part of functioning team. We messed up Sanchez contract which had impact on lot of renewals at that time, I hope we don't do the same mistake.
It's been 6 years, we should move on if it means offering huge contract. With the contract situation completely in favor of Pogba, we would have to offer him huge wages. Sometimes it's better to accept things didn't work out as expected and move on.
You think judging one team at the start of the season vs one team halfway through a season on the basis of which I THOUGHT would win the title answers which was the better team? Neither team won the league, neither came close.Do i think this team wins the league ever :-
DDG
Valencia
Blind
Bailly
Rojo
Herrera
Pogba
Fellaini
Ibra
Mata
Martial
The answer there is definitely not. Needs five players in that side at least and the backups were 35 year old Carrick, decrepid Rooney, Chuckle bros, 19 year old Rashford, Schneiderlin, mikhi, Darmian.
If we go for the first game after lockdown, when we had our players back fit as we would have at the start of a season generally, then your looking at this side:-
DDG
Shaw
AWB
Maguire
Lindelof
Matic
Pogba
Bruno
Greenwood
Martial
Rashford
I think this side needs a younger version of Matic and a Lindelof replacement to really compete. It’s miles ahead of the 2016 side.
Honestly can’t comprehend your opinion that the 2016 side was better than the side Bruno came into. It’s honestly bizarre in my opinion. Really really bizarre, almost agenda driven.
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It’s up to Pogba to get more out of himself, I’d remind anyone of his form since Xmas and add that again I’ve only ever seen perhaps Roy Keane not have dips in form over periods of months/years. Would Tchouameni balance the team better, which is really what should always be the question, I’d suggest he would. He’s a better DM than McFred are combined. I didn’t think he was great though. Pogba was superb non the less.
Do i think this team wins the league ever :-
DDG
Valencia
Blind
Bailly
Rojo
Herrera
Pogba
Fellaini
Ibra
Mata
Martial
The answer there is definitely not. Needs five players in that side at least and the backups were 35 year old Carrick, decrepid Rooney, Chuckle bros, 19 year old Rashford, Schneiderlin, mikhi, Darmian.
If we go for the first game after lockdown, when we had our players back fit as we would have at the start of a season generally, then your looking at this side:-
DDG
Shaw
AWB
Maguire
Lindelof
Matic
Pogba
Bruno
Greenwood
Martial
Rashford
I think this side needs a younger version of Matic and a Lindelof replacement to really compete. It’s miles ahead of the 2016 side.
Honestly can’t comprehend your opinion that the 2016 side was better than the side Bruno came into. It’s honestly bizarre in my opinion. Really really bizarre, almost agenda driven.
Ofcourse that's how it should be judged, not with the benefit of hindsight, with posts like "lol we signed Mkhi, now we have Sancho". The atmosphere at the club was very different, 2016 many thought we had chance of winning the league within few seasons because of Jose and 2017-18 many thought we have done very well and we can compete for the league. How it ended is a different story.
Agenda driven
, says the guy who can't wait to shit on Bruno to the guy who defends both Pogba and Bruno.What's bizarre is you randomly picking few weak players and then compare it with strong players in this squad. Like Pogba walked into the team with Fellaini at CM, Blind at CB, Mata as RW completely ignoring we also had Herrera as CM, Bailly as CB, Carrick who is much better than any CM we have (bar Pogba), Mkhi who was signed to play as RW.
By the same logic, Bruno walked into the team that had James, AP, Lingard playing regularly. At least should be consistent with the logic.
Coming to how the teams are rated, go back to 2016 and most fans rated that team highly, who wouldn't when we signed 3 of the best players from Serie A, Bundesliga, French league. Most fans always rate the team highly at the start of the season, only after few years we will get to know the real quality of the team. Only time when the team wasn't highly rated was in 2019 summer.
Right now with all the benefit of hindsight and how it ended, I rate this team higher than the one in 2016. Go back 5 years and most rated that team too. 5 years down the line, we will sign new shiny players and this team won't be rated as highly unless they win the title.
I’m not sure where you’re going with this. To clarify you’re saying that we should base an assessment of the quality of two teams by how fans viewed their chances of a title win? Even if that assessment criteria is flawed? (One team from day one, one team mid season). That we shouldn’t base an assessment of a side with the benefit of hindsight? Even when we have hindsight. I don’t remember looking at that back four, Fellaini, a 35 year old Carrick etc and thinking we’d win the league in any case.Ofcourse that's how it should be judged, not with the benefit of hindsight, with posts like "lol we signed Mkhi, now we have Sancho". The atmosphere at the club was very different, 2016 many thought we had chance of winning the league within few seasons because of Jose and 2017-18 many thought we have done very well and we can compete for the league. How it ended is a different story.
Agenda driven
What's bizarre is you randomly picking few weak players and then compare it with strong players in this squad. Like Pogba walked into the team with Fellaini at CM, Blind at CB, Mata as RW completely ignoring we also had Herrera as CM, Bailly as CB, Carrick who is much better than any CM we have (bar Pogba), Mkhi who was signed to play as RW.
By the same logic, Bruno walked into the team that had James, AP, Lingard playing regularly. At least should be consistent with the logic.
Coming to how the teams are rated, go back to 2016 and most fans rated that team highly, who wouldn't when we signed 3 of the best players from Serie A, Bundesliga, French league. Most fans always rate the team highly at the start of the season, only after few years we will get to know the real quality of the team. Only time when the team wasn't highly rated was in 2019 summer.
Right now with all the benefit of hindsight and how it ended, I rate this team higher than the one in 2016. Go back 5 years and most rated that team too. 5 years down the line, we will sign new shiny players and this team won't be rated as highly unless they win the title.
Perhaps we should stick with Alan Hansens assessment of the 95/96 side.
Bruno played only 7 games pre Covid 3 of those EL games, James played in 3, Perriera in 2. Post Covid Ole generally stuck to the side I named once everyone was back fit. That’s not agenda. It’s fact. He wasn’t playing with Perreira or Lingard or James generally whereas Pogba was playing with Blind as CB, Valencia RB, Rojo LB, Mata RW, Fellaini CM.
Im really missing your point or are you just taking offence to the fact that Bruno walked into a good side and Pogba walked into a side with huge weaknesses throughout?
I don't take offense to anything, its just that you are rating 2 teams completely different, nothing more than that.
Pogba walked into the team with Blind as CB and Bruno walked into team with Lindelof as CB.
Pogba walked into the team with Carrick as CM, Bruno walked into the team with McFred as CM, yes 35 year old Carrick was better than McFred.
You talk about Valencia, is AWB better than Valencia?
Anyways point is, lets see in few years how this team will be rated. I always felt 2016-17, 2017-18 team was closer to title with how the atmosphere was compared to any season since Ole was signed.
Ignoring all the context and going with "Yeah this squad is better than 2016" isn't any different than the blind anti-Pogba posts that said "France went out of Euros because of Pogba". Context is important for any discussion.
As on 2021, do it rate this team ahead of 2016 team? Without doubt.
Which team was closer to the title at least without all the hindsight? Easily 2016 and 2017 one.
I honestly can't believe you're seriously arguing that the team in 2020 was worse than the one in 2016. Literally, it's insanity
People will literally argue anything on the internet ! Even when they agree with the point in the first place.
Like I said, context. Not everything is binary.
For sure, but which team was better is pretty binary even if it’s an opinion.
No it isn't. Lot of factors should be considered like how close we were to other top teams. Liverpool, City, Chelsea were far from this level in 2016. All the clubs were around same level. Now they look level above us.
A quick compilation I chanced upon of Pogba's sublime passing range. When on form, he makes football joyful to watch in every sense.
What’s that got to do with how good the United team in 16 was compared to 19?
Answer nothing.
DDG
Valencia
Blind
Bailly
Rojo
Mata
Fellaini
Pogba
Herrera
Martial
Zlatan
vs
DDG
AWB
Maguire
Lindelof
Shaw
Matic
Pogba
Bruno
Greenwood
Martial
Rashford
I know where my monies going and it isn’t even close. Like I said Bruno walked into a much better side that had been built, but lacked creativity especially when Pogba was out. Pogba walked into a mismatch of players from various managers. A mess.
Not sure wtf you’re on about but this is like two different arguments, one of which (yours) has nothing to do with my point.
Ridiculous player
Some real beauts of passes here were squandered by the recievers. Pogba is a terrific passer of the ball, a real joy to watch indeed
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I already said why it matters. Teams are not rated in vaccum, almost all the time.its relative comparison.
The comparison is simple ffs. Which side was better 16 or 19.
It’s not ‘A won the league so it was better than B’, in which case you would have a point, rather this is a simple breakdown of the team and the players from both sides. Relative strengths and weaknesses of the unit, which can be done in a vacuum and with the benefit of hindsight no problem whatsoever.
This is a basic comparison between two teams. It’s a straightforward as it gets.
Just leave it now, this is derailing the thread completely unnecessarily. Jesus.
Are we talking about current squad or 2019 squad?
Without doubt this (2021) squad is better than Jose's squads but 2019?
2016-17 vs 2019-20
De Gea vs De Gea - 2016 De Gea was miles better
Valencia vs AWB - Valencia
Any CB combination vs Maguire, Varane - Maguire and Varane
Any LB vs Shaw - Shaw
Carrick vs Fred/McT - Carrick
Pogba vs Pogba (Pogba was out for whole season when Bruno joined, it was Pogba vs McT)
Herrera vs AP/Lingard- Herrera
Mata, Mkhi vs James- Mata, Mkhi
Rashford vs Rashford - 2019 Rashford,
Zlatan vs Martial - Zlatan
It's lot closer than you think. Greenwood is so much better player now but he wasn't regular starter when Bruno was signed.
You can easily argue 6 players from that 11 were better than 2019 team.
Bye
Good, would have loved to see where you disagree but then it wouldn't suit "Bruno walked into much better team" agenda.
FFS…..
DDG
AWB
Maguire
Lindelof
Shaw
Matic
Pogba
Bruno
Greenwood
Rashford
Martial
This is simple fact. This is the team, when everyone was fit (a handful of games into Bruno’s arrival) that played week in week out, even though we were playing every three games. McT came in for one game and the fullbacks were changed I’d guess due to injury.
Greenwood was playing every game and was sensational, Martial was player of the year, the rest of the team was balanced, Degea was certainly an issue but you could look at the ten outfield players fairly enough in my opinion.
Carrick started only 16 league games out of 38 in 2016. He was 35 and way past his best. By this point the 2019 midfield he wouldn’t have got near.
As for Perriera, Lingard and James…..they weren’t regular starters in he team Bruno joined. The team is listed above and was consistently picked. I’m not sure why you’re naming them. You seem to be talking about the team before Bruno where players were playing because Pogba was injured, Rashford was injured. AND WE DIDNT HAVE BRUNO.
As another poster said….if you think the 16 side was better you’re insane.
35 year old Carrick would shit on McFred easily. Carrick who started 16 league games wasn't a regular but Greenwood who started 12 league games is a regular player over James who started 26 league games. Not sure how that even makes sense. Carrick even played more mins than Fellaini but yeah continue with "Pogba played with Fellaini" argument. He played more mins than Greenwood played in 2019-20 season. Funny how one is a regular player but others are not.
Matic barely started in the first half of 2019-20 season, it was only after restart he played few games regularly. Amazing how Fred is left out from that team when he was arguably our player of the season in the first half of the season alongside Rashford. Pogba missed half of the season so ignoring that, players who played most mins are
De Gea
AWB
Maguire
Lindelof
Shaw
Fred
Pogba
James
Bruno
Rashford
Martial.
2016 De Gea is much better than 2019 De Gea
Valencia > AWB
2016 Bailly > Lindelof
Carrick/Herrera > Matic, Fred, McT
Mata > James
Zlatan > Martial
So much for "much better team"
Forget other poster, I'm telling it, if anyone thought that 2019-20 team was much better than 2016-17, they are insane. We had De Gea, Valencia, Bailly, Herrera, Carrick, Zlatan who are better than players in their position in 2019-20 season. Only controversial would be Bailly but that Bailly was miles better than Lindelof. Also any attacker was better than James as they can at least control football.
Do you really believe DeGea, AWB, Lindelof, McT, Fred, James, Martial were better than De Gea, Valencia, Bailly, Carrick, Herrera, Mata, Zlatan?
Never known anyone defend the inconsistent dabbing sensation quite as much as Jeppers7.
Almost like you're totally oblivious to the 5 and a bit frustrating seasons we have had with Pogba. Still doesn't have a place in the team and still had every excuse under the sun provided for him for his inconsistent performances.
When he's good he's really really good. There's no denying it. However the average and down right awful days are way more common than his great games.
This season he started the first 3 games like a man possessed. Coincidence that the window was still open? Maybe....maybe not. However since GW4 he's reverted to his usual self. Giving the ball away, failing to track runners, leaving his men free in box etc.
Pogba will never be a world class player in this league. He's got too many gaping holes in his game / attitude to do it.
Almost like you're totally oblivious to the 5 and a bit frustrating seasons we have had with Pogba. Still doesn't have a place in the team and still had every excuse under the sun provided for him for his inconsistent performances.
When he's good he's really really good. There's no denying it. However the average and down right awful days are way more common than his great games.
This season he started the first 3 games like a man possessed. Coincidence that the window was still open? Maybe....maybe not. However since GW4 he's reverted to his usual self. Giving the ball away, failing to track runners, leaving his men free in box etc.
Pogba will never be a world class player in this league. He's got too many gaping holes in his game / attitude to do it.
Talk about taking the thread off-topic
This is getting really silly. You’re talking about the team pre-Bruno. He didn’t sign for us in August so it is irrelevant as to the team sheet from August to February. I’m talking about the team Bruno walked into, not the one before he arrived. I’d take someone saying his first few games Pogba and Rashford were injured….but it was a handful of games and when everyone was fit again the team selection was consistent and I’ve named it several times.
I’ve got to leave it here and we will agree to disagree if you feel the team Bruno played in, not the one he didn’t, is worse than the team in Pogba’s first season.
Enjoy your day.
Sorry. I’ve tried to end it and feel my point only needed to be made once, it was consistent.
Yeah he was great first three games. Good the next couple. Really poor against Villereal he’s definitely not performing as well as the first few games of the season. He played well against Everton off the bench.
For reference who do you feel have been our best performers this season?
The team Jose put together was stronger than the team Bruno eventually came into. I’d say from the next summer window on it was equal again and after last summer, on paper, it’s stronger now.
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