Definitely. Crying out for an upgrade in that area.
6
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 27
- Goals
- 1
- Assists
- 9
- Yellow cards
- 9
- Red cards
- 1
- Status
The other thing people may underestimate is the defensive ability of Shaw, Maguire, Varane and Wan Bissaka.
Add the right CDM and this is not going to be easy to get through. Pogba may defensively act just as a number to that but use his quality in the creative attacking way.
Add the right CDM and this is not going to be easy to get through. Pogba may defensively act just as a number to that but use his quality in the creative attacking way.
We can't just place them randomly in the same role, there has to be purpose. What's the purpose Pogba plays as the Xavi role anyway? Xavi played in his role to dictate the tempo and control the midfield. Pogba doesn't have the ability to do that.
I mean I know that Pogba doesn't play like Xavi but why exactly would we play Pogba deeper if he wasn't the one who was helping the team out with the passing ability?
Isn't that why he plays deeper for France?
Pogba played in advanced role on the left in our first two games and produced 5 assists. Did he produce those amazing assist stats in France? No. Did he produce anything vs Wolves? No.
If Pogba asset is his passing ability then the advanced he is the better he is because that's where you want him to make assist. Having passing ability alone doesn't describe the purpose and provide a valid reason why he must play in there, Rooney has passing ability too but it's better to play him in advanced role.
That's fair enough, he is obviously going to get more numbers when playing an attacking role vs a deeper role; however its not like we don't have left wingers that don't put out great numbers for us already (even ones we have bought this season).
It's more about trying to fit our best players in a starting XI - maybe it just doesn't fit here at United and is why he is contemplating leaving.
It's almost like Gerrard, Scholes, Lampard argument. I personally would rather get the most out of Pogba, Bruno, and Ronaldo as they are our big players that can win us things when playing at their best than trying to fit Rashford/Martial and Sancho/Greenwood all together.
He did….they just didn’t result in assists which is out of his control. Not that I disagree that he is better suited higher up the pitch mind.
More assists from Pogba, the better for him and the better for us.
For France, its not like he just has one CDM next to him(Kante), like you're suggesting we do with him. He has two other players(Kante and Matuidi, or Kante and Rabiot), alongside him in midfield to support him. If Kante cant do it alone, I doubt any other CDM can. Bruno does not suit that role. If Pogba is to play in a midfield, and we get a CDM, we will still need one of Fred/McT. Also as we have seen Bruno struggles in a deeper 4-3-3 role.
Pogba's best role is from the left as a false #8. Bruno is best as a #10/Second striker. I dont think shifting them from their best positions just to cram in one more attacking player is prudent. Even if we do, I think its best to use a 4-2-3-1. Atleast Bruno stays in his best position, we get 3 attacking players alongside him, and Pogba's weakenss can be managed, against some of the weaker sides who dont press much. I dont think our build up issues are inherent to a 4-2-3-1, its more to do with tactics and personnel(lack of press resistant midfielders).
I hope we can find a upgrade on McT or Fred. Rice, Bissouma, Tchouameni, whoever that is.
Yep. The problem with Pogba is not his defensive ability, its his lack of press resistance. It's that he takes too long on the ball sometimes, and loses it. When he does that higher up the pitch, no problem. But when he plays deep, its a huge risk. That's why this Pogba as a DLP experience just wont work, similar to Gerrard tbh.
It’s honestly abit of a myth that Pogba plays well in a two for France because of Kante. The reality is Pogba has very rarely played in a midfield two. Usually Deshamps has operated with a midfielder on the left wing. Initially that was Matuidi and more recently it has been Rabiot.
In reality while the team might read;
Kante——Pogba
——Griezman——
It’s actually;
Kante——Matuidi/Rabiot
—————Pogba
——Griezman——
If we wanted to replicate what France do then Bruno isn’t an issue at all as he operates in the same way as Griezman. What we would need to do is sacrifice one of our attackers to put a midfielder on the left, or as we have done recently, start Pogba on the left where he’s practically able to play in a midfield three anyway.
Nice post. But.
France have a free 10 too (griezmann). They compensate by having a much better DM and a defensive LW. LW is where literally all our attacking players like to start or drift into or from, so no chance of that. And sadly no DM despite it being an obvious need for a while.
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To be honest, there is no reason he can't play in a 2 CM system against 80% of the PL teams with whoever we partner him in term of creating assists.
The arguments on here swing widly (depending on his form) from one extreme - he is very lazy - to another - we need to shift everyone else around and sign Kante in steriod. The truth is always in the middle with a bit more of effort from him and a bit of formation tweaks , we can get better outputs from him and the team.
Now, I say that because for me, he is supremely talented and plays well anywhere in the middle if he feels like it.
I agree with this. People are under the impression that he can’t play a deeper role in the middle and it’s just not true.
We need better coaching because our off-ball build up is non-existent, nobody really makes runs or makes themselves available for the pass, it’s all very static and predictable.
If we were more fluid then Pogba has the skill set to find anyone on the pitch with a pass, and our attacks begin to be more cohesive and we can break the press.
Speaking of better coaching, we do need to pass the ball quicker. Even Bruno slows down a lot due to complaint of giving the ball way too much?
Pogba and Rashford are similar in a sense that if they have time to think, they would overdo stuff. If they keep simple and go with their instinct, they perform so much better. Movements around the box should improve with players getting fitter and Ronaldo coming into the team.
Im wondering if it’s psychological? Our players seem reluctant to be expressive and take risks in the attacking third and I’m wondering if that’s borne out of us going down a goal early first so often, or the level of expectation has increased so they would rather play it safe and take extra touches before making the pass.
I’m hoping like you said with the introduction of winners like Varane & Ronaldo the confidence increases and we start playing like title challengers with a level of arrogance and expectancy to win. Right now I don’t think we carry ourselves in that manner, and that can be seen in our play.
You're ignoring Rabiot as 3rd midfielder/defensive midfielder. There's zero chance we can replicate that at United.
im not ignoring Rabiot because he didn’t play that position if you actually watched the match, he was the most advanced midfielder out of the three and mostly occupied the left flank, with Pogba & Tchouameni sat centrally more often than not.
Exactly this, my favourite iteration of Pogba at United was in his first season under Jose when he played in the 2 a lot with Matic. That season, he really demonstrated his long passing game, a trait we don’t see much when he’s higher up the pitch. If he has the movement in front of him, and a disciplined partner next to him, there’s no reason he can’t be part of a dominant midfield.
Honestly, I am sick of this "he's not helping the defense" shit.Why would he? He is an attacker, you can't believe he should do all the defensive work also. Should we put him on the goal line to help DDG?
5 assists people. Let him play where he's most comfortable to play, the rest isn't his fault
5 assists people. Let him play where he's most comfortable to play, the rest isn't his fault
If he wants to play in the double pivot he has to help the defense, no question about it.
If he wants to play attack and only attack, then it's a struggle to get him into the team consistently because we are stacked in attack and his output in front of goal does not match the others.
The unfortunate issue with Pogba is that his biggest strength is playing worldie passes from deep central midfield. If you play in a deep position, you must defend because you're playing in your own half most of the time.
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You are ignoring that Rabiot was a lot more compact in midfield and tracked runners more consistently than Fernandes ever would for Utd. Fernandes is a 10 in a front 4...Rabiot was the most advanced in a midfield 3. With Pogba deep, we play a 4-2-3-1. That is not how France play. Pogba rarely plays as one of two holding players for France. He doesn’t do it well and doesn’t do it well for Utd either.
In fact, check out how Dechamps has handled Pogba perfectly...in almost every game Pogba plays, he is alongside Kante/Tolisso/Rabiot in a midfield 3 especially in big games. Greizmann only gets a free role comparable to Fernandes at Utd in games that either Pogba is not playing or they are playing against significantly poorer opposition.
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Rabiot wasn't in a midfield 3, he was in the right wide attacking position for the majority of the match, and of course he tracked runners that's the minimum expectation. The fact that Bruno doesn't do it enough for United is a Bruno issue that should be resolved.
Tchouameni & Pogba were the ones who occupied the middle of the park in a holding position.
If you really want to stretch it, you can argue that at times Pogba & Rabiot both played free roaming #10 positions with Tchouameni as the CDM - which did happen on occasion, and there's no reason why we can't play that at United with a better CDM. But that wasn't the default formation throughout the match.
You previously said Rabiot was wide left? But either way, he was not in a free 10 role in the way that Fernandes plays when Pogba plays deep. Rabiot tracked in such a way that Pogba did not need to be aware of spaces Rabiot was leaving. Rabiot performed the defensive duties of a midfielder. If Pogba was asked to play in. two at Utd, Fernandes would have to stop playing as a free 10 and play as a More disciplined midfielder...part of a 3...like Rabiot/Tolisso does For France.
Heatmaps show he was as much part of a midfield 3 as Tchouameni though. From the Tchouameni thread....
Not particularly, they play as LM or RM respectively but help centrally too. Here's the heatmaps of Tchouameni, Rabiot and Pogba from yesterday.
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1516133/Live/International-FIFA-World-Cup-2021-2022-Ukraine-France
If that doesn't look a midfield trio then I don't know what does. Look how Rabiot actually had more touches in his own box than Pogba or Tchouameni or how much he helped in the middle of the park. The only area he didn't go to much is right midfield because Tchouameni was there. If Rabiot didn't play as CM, then Tchouameni didn't either. It was the same when Matuidi played.
I think it's hard to argue that France don't sacrifice a wide forward for a 3 midfielder. Rabiot's heatmap is nothing like a Rashford or Martial heatmap on the LW. The latter are forwards, playing like forwards and occasionally helping back. Rabiot or Matuidi are midfielders, playing like midfielders even if they are at LM or RM.
If you want more presence in midfield, you have to either sacrifice a winger/inverted forward, or ask Bruno to play like an #8 and not a support striker. Otherwise, if you play only 2 players there, you accept the risk and roll the dice that the opposition might burst through you midfield in counters or occasions when the ball is turned over in midfield.
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left/right i haven't had my coffee - he wasn't in a central midfield role. Pogba & Tchouameni were. Rabiot wasn't in a free 10 role because Griezmann was in that role, Rabiot was on the left/right side of the front 3.
Did you watch the match? He wasn't as part of the midfield as Tchouameni, not even close.
I did yes and I felt he was. I felt Thcouameni was on the right and Rabiot on the left but they essentially played the same way.
Rabiot was slightly more involved in the build up along with Pogba, but played like a midfield as much as the other two.
Tchouameni was on the right?
This guy was not on the right, and you can see him and Pogba are central in that clip too. Rabiot was floating pretty much next to Griezmann or on the wing.
Yeah, that's what I saw. Predominantly on the right that is. He's a midfielder after all. But he operated more from the right like Rabiot operated more from the left.
I'll disagree and use the heatmaps as my evidence.
The only time he was anywhere near the right was when all of the players were shifted to one side of the pitch, that wasn't his starting position - as you can see in the video it's context dependent, and like I said - Pogba was by his side, and Rabiot was further up the pitch.
You're going to disagree with video evidence? Ok.
I’ve been saying it for two years and get pelters for it every single week.
Pogba in a two with a properly upgraded defensive player alongside him is the natural progression for this team.
Particularly when you factor in we should be playing with a higher line now with Varane in defence and the fact he’s not having to babysit Lindelof.
Apparently we need defensive wingers, sitting fullbacks and a brick wall erected to do this though … :rollseyes:
When he was at Juventus: Pogba Pirlo Vidal
When he was at France 2018: Matuidi Kante Pogba (Pogba played in double pivot alongside Kante but Matuidi who played on the left tug in to provide more protection in midfield which give Pogba more license to go forward sometime)
When he was at United 18/19 under Ole caretaker Pogba Matic Herrera
When he was at France 2021 Rabiot Kante Pogba
When he produced 5 assists in 2 games at United Pogba Fred McTominay (Pogba played on the left but tends to drift inside to midfield, even he mentioned last season that his role on the left was similar to the one he played at Juventus).
Do you see the pattern? Vidal, Herrera, Matuidi, Rabiot, McTominay have similarity why they are in that midfield and all of those are completely different to Bruno.
When he was at France 2018: Matuidi Kante Pogba (Pogba played in double pivot alongside Kante but Matuidi who played on the left tug in to provide more protection in midfield which give Pogba more license to go forward sometime)
When he was at United 18/19 under Ole caretaker Pogba Matic Herrera
When he was at France 2021 Rabiot Kante Pogba
When he produced 5 assists in 2 games at United Pogba Fred McTominay (Pogba played on the left but tends to drift inside to midfield, even he mentioned last season that his role on the left was similar to the one he played at Juventus).
Do you see the pattern? Vidal, Herrera, Matuidi, Rabiot, McTominay have similarity why they are in that midfield and all of those are completely different to Bruno.
The video is reversed/mirrored and it also represents some highlights which are only a fraction of Tchouameni's 80+ touches and contributions in the match. I deem the heatmap from the full 90 mins to be far more comprehensive evidence.
In short, yes I disagree with the video.
I think i'd be more inclined to care what Pogba was doing with France if France were an outstanding team. Whenever i watch them they look very mediocre and like a pale shadow of the talent available to them. They just look unbalanced and dysfunctional to me.
What?
France dont have a very good system and dont perform at a level where i'd be desperate to copy them.
They've shoehorned their best players into a team with a few workhorses like Giroud and Matuidi to make it work. And it worked pretty well mostly but it was fairly scrappy, fairly stop start and was often carried by individual moments of brilliance (and the teams they play being pretty run of the mill).
The standard we need to meet to compete with City or Chelsea or hell even Liverpool is higher than that French team could manage in my view. They have an embarrassing amount of talent available but it just doesn't come off when i've watched them. Maybe they were incredible against Ukraine but i'm not sure how much it even matters with the standard you'd expect of Ukraine.
He can play there but not consistently with one of Fred or McT as partner. He needs someone more disciplined than either of them. Wolves tore us apart in that first half, Fred was atrocious. A Matic with legs + Pogba did well for instance.
To me however, he's better used further up the field, closer to the goal though.
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