[The United]

First we were bad in both half, we simply scored a goal in the second half on a strange chance while Wolves missed big chances. And the point about 1950s is the use of a literal 424, notably by the Brazil national team, it wasn't a 442, that formation is almost defunct in today's game.

The tactical difference is fairly simple, a 442 uses wide midfielders while a 424 uses wide forwards. These sets of players primarily play in a different third of the pitch which has for main consequence that the CMs have to cover the entire width of the pitch, that's something that you rarely saw under SAF.

Ok let's go back to wide CMs/forwards again, both James who was playing the 'park role' and Sancho were helping out to cover the flanks a lot more than the likes of let's say Martial and Rashford. I didn't want to go to that part because my point was that saying playing 2 CMs is not enough in the middle is pretty ridiculous.

We got better in control of midfield in 2nd half. Much better on a very low standard displayed on first half. Mainly because after the subs, all 3 forward players were able to retain and control the ball a lot better than the ones in the first half. That was the key which gave Pogba to able to move around a lot more without having to stay back the whole time.

And, no one is talking about if we deserved the win.

 

[mu4c_20le]

This is the PL

 

[SAFMUTD]

I love the guy but why is he giving his kit to a Wolves fan who probably booed him for 90 minutes?

To be the higher man. Well done.

 

[SoCross]

He belongs further up the pitch. Wasted at centre midfield. He’s a special player and we are lucky to have both Bruno and him. The closer they play to the opposition goal, the better they are for us.

Hope we get a midfielder because it’s either McFred or bust for us in terms of central midfield. Matic can’t do it any longer and VDB clearly doesn’t have Oles confidence.

 

[Sunny Jim]

Fred is the common denominator that has underperformed for the last 2 games.

Pogba was the better of the two by far today in the end.

i disagree.Lack of McFred was the problem.

 

[laughtersassassin]

Agreed with Ole. Pogba controlled the second very well.

 

[JPRouve]

Ok let's go back to wide CMs/forwards again, both James who was playing the 'park role' and Sancho were helping out to cover the flanks a lot more than the likes of let's say Martial and Rashford. I didn't want to go to that part because my point was that saying playing 2 CMs is not enough in the middle is pretty ridiculous.

We got better in control of midfield in 2nd half. Much better on a very low standard displayed on first half.

Again the point isn't about 2 CMs not being enough, that's not how football works, you can't isolate two players and make the point that you are trying to make. What people are saying is that you generally can't play a 2 man midfield when you surround them with 4 forwards, it's a rarity in today's game particularly when teams tend to overload the midfield which means that your CMs will be totally outnumbered.

 

[The United]

Again the point isn't about 2 CMs not being enough, that's not how football works, you can't isolate two players and make the point that you are trying to make. What people are saying is that you generally can't play a 2 man midfield when you surround them with 4 forwards, it's a rarity in today's game particularly when teams tend to overload the midfield which means that your CMs will be totally outnumbered.

You did see that both wingers were more defending than attacking in the first half right? So, where did this 'attempt' to isolate 2 midfield argument come from?

This suicidal imaginary strictly 4 - 2 - 4 formation didn't happen either. Ole might not be a top coach but he is not that stupid to play like that.

 

[JPRouve]

You did see that both wingers were more defending than attacking in the first half right? So, where did this 'attempt' to isolate 2 midfield argument come from?

They weren't defending, not having the ball doesn't mean that you are defending. They were both high and remained high during the first half and they barely attacked because we didn't had enough control in midfield. The isolate part is about the way you only wants to count the amount of CMs, someone mentions a 442 and 424 and you make the point that you only care about the 2 CMs.

 

[The United]

They weren't defending, not having the ball doesn't mean that you are defending. They were both high and remained high during the first half and they barely attacked because we didn't had enough control in midfield. The isolate part is about the way you only wants to count the amount of CMs, someone mentions a 442 and 424 and you make the point that you only care about the 2 CMs.

Regarding the wingers staying high, you might want to watch the game again. I remember James having to help out a lot on the right wing for almost all first half. And, I am giving example of the two wingers helping out the team in general just like how you said SAF's wingers did.

We are in Pogba's thread and people talk about how this thing does not suit him which I agree. So, of course I would try to talk about the midfield and why I think Ole set this up. Does not mean of course I agree with that.

 

[JPRouve]

Regarding the wingers staying high, you might want to watch the game again. I remember James having to help out a lot on the right wing for almost all first half. And, I am giving example of the two wingers helping out the team in general just like how you said SAF's wingers did.

We are in Pogba's thread and people talk about how this thing does not suit him which I agree. So, of course I would try to talk about the midfield and why I think Ole set this up. Does not mean of course I agree with that.

Neither actually helped which is why Fred was tracking covering from touchline to the other, I don't know what you remember but it's not what happened, it was pretty clear that we were playing with 4 forwards who were often on the same line. And under SAF it wasn't a matter of help but their primarily roles particularly in the case of Park or Beckham who were wide midfielders not wingers.

 

[The United]

Neither actually helped which is why Fred was tracking covering from touchline to the other, I don't know what you remember but it's not what happened, it was pretty clear that we were playing with 4 forwards who were often on the same line. And under SAF it wasn't a matter of help but their primarily roles particularly in the case of Park or Beckham who were wide midfielders not wingers.

That's his and Pogba's job to cover for immediate counter threats. But, doing shit at it does not make winger's fault all the time. Sancho actually played like a Beckham from left side in this game if you go back and re-watch it. He was inside more often instead of hugging the line and James was tracking back every single time.

The 4 forwards would be in line in general to stretch out when we attack of course. Where else do you want them to be especially the tactic involved in this game (which I think) is all about by passing their aggressive and combative high line midfield to break the line quickly as possible. And, it is why Pogba played further back to have a bit more space to pass out. If you think he can't handle the press further back, he certainly won't do a better job at LCM position either because the press would even be more intensive in that area with only Fred behind. And, we do NOT have combative DM/CM to counter that especially when Tommy is out.

 

[RedDevil250]

I thought Pogba had a great second half actually. One bad pass I recall, but otherwise very good. Good game.

 

[Highfather_24]

Pogba struggles when pressed. That's why he looked better in the 2nd half when they let up a bit.

He keeps losing the ball when played deep. Having a better DM like Rice alongside him, will not change anything.

We should buy a proper midfielder like Neves, and let Pogba play further up where he's worth the 90M we paid for.

 

[harms]

Regarding the wingers staying high, you might want to watch the game again. I remember James having to help out a lot on the right wing for almost all first half. And, I am giving example of the two wingers helping out the team in general just like how you said SAF's wingers did.

Someone might have to, but I'm not sure if that someone is @JPRouve
By the way, James' average position is even higher than Greenwood's or Bruno's.

 

[The United]

Someone might have to, but I'm not sure if that someone is @JPRouve
By the way, James' average position is even higher than Greenwood's or Bruno's.

So which part was not right when I said that Sancho was playing like a LCM rather than a true winger and James tracked back pretty often? United wingers should be in those areas. Do you think SAF's era wingers stay behind our own line in general?

And, this is the heat map on all minutes together or just the first half? And, according to your heat maps, both CMs did play higher than what some of you might make out like right on top of our own box or something. So, it is not 42-----------4 formation, right?

PS. And, can you post Bruno's one? I just couldn't insert it here for some reason. Bruno spent more or less same areas as Sancho....

 

[DoomSlayer]

I don't understand how can Pogba be so bad when pressed at times. His ball control is world class, yet when pressured it's like he starts panicking and fumbles with the ball so many times.

We also need to take advantage as a team when 2 or more players try to press him hard and close the passing lanes near him. It opens up so much space in their half that we almost never manage to exploit.

 

[united_99]

He was good overall, I expected worse from a midfield of him and Fred.
At times he was playing as deep as a CB - he shouldn’t be allowed or forced to play that deep.

 

[Longshanks]

Proper mixed bag today, some moments of genius couple of brainfarts and quite alot of meh.

Was hiding from his defensive duties in first half not backing his colleagues up at all, better in second half.

He seems to be either pointless sideways and backwards or Hollywood passes when playing in the deeper role, no line breaking passes into feet, no combinations, one-twos triangles to progress the team up the park (and himself).

 

[laughtersassassin]

Was forced into long balls with how high Bruno was playing.

Managed 14 accurate ones which is very good!

 

[Abraxas]

One of those Pogba games. Moments of majesty combined with total frustration. Some raking passes, some periods where he overplayed his hand.

I don't think he's ever going to be steady enough in these positions. The best generally don't give the ball away, they'll pull off all the fundamentals every week and now and again pull off brilliance too. Paul does more than the typical amount of the latter but in terms of defensive awareness, basic buildup etc it is impossible to know from moment to moment what he'll produce.

 

[Litch]

I like Pogs but think of this lads ability, profile in world football and a World Cup winner. 6 years here, how many games has his ability turned losses into wins? For me, there is more criticism to him than Fred, Scott et al because they are playing to their ability, where Pogs rarely does despite his higher ceiling

 

[Nou_Camp99]

I actually think we miss Mctomminay far more than people realise.

 

[ti vu]

I don't understand how can Pogba be so bad when pressed at times. His ball control is world class, yet when pressured it's like he starts panicking and fumbles with the ball so many times.

We also need to take advantage as a team when 2 or more players try to press him hard and close the passing lanes near him. It opens up so much space in their half that we almost never manage to exploit.
[/QUOTE

See post below. Pogba is heavily tasked to find the other attackers. The tactic clearly aims to exploit the space in Wolves half. However, since the tactic is bold, Wolves was ready to defend it.

So I would say coaching. Our build up from the back mechanism is poor compare to the standard of the best out there. Technical, physical ability, vision, creativity even at the highest level can only do so much for one player if his own team give little help (tactically).

It's no help that Ole is still shuffling, chop and change our attacking options game after game. It's not helpful in building up familiarity between the provider and pass receiver.

Was forced into long balls with how high Bruno was playing.

Managed 14 accurate ones which is very good!

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Pogba can't play DM.

He is magical at times if attaching but not a great defender or great out of possession.

 

[Godfather]

Was forced into long balls with how high Bruno was playing.

Managed 14 accurate ones which is very good!

Brilliant tactics that

 

[Borys]

So we were told he can play CM against majority of the opponents in the EPL. I guess Wolves don't fall into that category. Fred had a bad game but Pogba offered no support. He was better second half because Wolverhampton got tired a bit and reduced the pressing a bit.

Should never play in midfield. We can't build a functional team when he plays deep. If we really need to play him there, just do it for the last 30 minutes of the game.

 

[El Zoido]

I actually think we miss Mctomminay far more than people realise.

Completely agree.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

I actually think we miss Mctomminay far more than people realise.

I actually think people that miss Mctominay will realise why others didn't when be comes back

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Completely agree.

I feel like this happens all the time.

1 of our midfielders is out and they are praised to OTT heights that they're the missing piece.

They come back and the same issues are still present in the team.

 

[The Mitcher]

Woeful first half but much much better second half. People complain about Ole's tactics, but think about it. You're up against Wolves and McTominay is out with a groin injury, you only have DvB, an old Matic and Pogba to fit alongside Fred. DvB has shown nothing to suggest he should be coming off the bench let alone starting, Matic, though he is not physically weak in any sense, is too slow for the high press. Naturally you trust Pogba who has decent strength and is good on the ball. It nearly backfired, but we pulled through and Pogba and Fred did eventually get to grips in the second half.

 

[RUCK4444]

Woeful first half but much much better second half. People complain about Ole's tactics, but think about it. You're up against Wolves and McTominay is out with a groin injury, you only have DvB, an old Matic and Pogba to fit alongside Fred. DvB has shown nothing to suggest he should be coming off the bench let alone starting, Matic, though he is not physically weak in any sense, is too slow for the high press. Naturally you trust Pogba who has decent strength and is good on the ball. It nearly backfired, but we pulled through and Pogba and Fred did eventually get to grips in the second half.

Yeah agree.

 

[United in sin]

I actually think we miss Mctomminay far more than people realise.

Yes, we miss him going missing and failing to make hey passes in games in like these (Wolves) especially

 

[The Mitcher]

Brilliant tactics that

Or is it Bruno not doing his job as a number 10?

 

[Silas]

I like Pogs but think of this lads ability, profile in world football and a World Cup winner. 6 years here, how many games has his ability turned losses into wins? For me, there is more criticism to him than Fred, Scott et al because they are playing to their ability, where Pogs rarely does despite his higher ceiling

You know the season started a couple weeks ago right? Highlights are on YouTube if you're looking.

 

[Mr Smith]

He belongs further up the pitch. Wasted at centre midfield. He’s a special player and we are lucky to have both Bruno and him. The closer they play to the opposition goal, the better they are for us.

Hope we get a midfielder because it’s either McFred or bust for us in terms of central midfield. Matic can’t do it any longer and VDB clearly doesn’t have Oles confidence.

I disagree, I think he offered the only route beyond the press by being deeper. The problem was that there were no options for him. It's a conversation for another thread, but I'm extremely frustrated with Bruno's positioning at the moment. Pogba is fine playing in a two in the majority of games, just not in the really big ones.

 

[criticalanalysis]

Wasn’t even a foul mate.

He caught Neves on the shinpad, which you can see in the replays actually moved, it was that close! Any more contact and it would have been a straight plant with his full weight behind it. If Neves was smarter or not so honest, he could have reacted wildly by throwing his feet backwards and that definitely would have been given. If that tackle had happened to any our of our players, I would call it a foul and called it out as potentially very dangerous.

Oh wait, unless you're laughing cause it wasn't given? In which case yeah . Deffo got away with it.

 

[Teja]

He caught Neves on the shinpad, which you can see in the replays actually moved, it was that close! Any more contact and it would have been a straight plant with his full weight behind it. If Neves was smarter or not so honest, he could have reacted wildly by throwing his feet backwards and that definitely would have been given. If that tackle had happened to any our of our players, I would call it a foul and called it out as potentially very dangerous.

Oh wait, unless you're laughing cause it wasn't given? In which case yeah . Deffo got away with it.

As Pogba says, it was a 50-50 ball there to be won, both went in, he barely made any contact, so they can't complain too much.

 

[Sylar]

Hes had his best when he doesnt take the extra touches. Some of his first or second time stuff is brilliant. When he gets the ball and kinda takes his time, he tends not to keep it 'simple'. Also think hes better when hes not in central midfield in a two (kinda like Gerrard used to be)

 

[Litch]

You know the season started a couple weeks ago right? Highlights are on YouTube if you're looking.

Bit rude and absolutely no idea what you mean......