I mean if you want to say good I don’t disagree with that, it’s not like I say he was poor but I‘m saying it was not world class performance or something I would call it special and wow. Sneijder WC 2010 probably the wow standard.
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I mean if you want to say good I don’t disagree with that, it’s not like I say he was poor but I‘m saying it was not world class performance or something I would call it special and wow. Sneijder WC 2010 probably the wow standard.
Oh, I don’t see Bruno as an advanced playmaker. At least he doesn’t play like one for us. He’s always forcing the issue. (When I say playmaker I mean “metronome”) Bruno and pogba are both creative types who go for killer balls like say, kdb. The players I’m talking about just kind of make themselves available for passes at the edge of the penalty box and recycle the ball, move the defense around, evade the press with their feet, or movement, look for space and keep the attack on for as long as possible. Anyways it’s just words. You’re right that Pogba and Bruno is a mismatch, except if one of them significantly changes their game. There’s no way for me to know if a midfield of say, Ndidi, Brandt, and Pogba will work, but Pogba had definitely never had a player like Brandt beside him( closest would be Aouar at France, who I would wager has less than 10 caps). But Kdb who is stylistically similar(ball carrying, vision, final pass), benefited no end from David Silva so it could work
He had a few games where he wasn't particularly good but still had a few individual moments of brilliance which won France the match. Against Australia for one and I remember at least one of the others was similar.
Their role were a bit different, Sneijder had a bigger impact in the final third of the pitch
He was fairly good in the biggest and most important matches. Australia was the first game after all. The discipline he showed during that tournament is what gave us Utd fans a lot of hope (and ultimately big disappointment) that he could be that kinda CM for our club on a consistent basis.
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Matic is playing the same role that you'd expect Carrick to play, but doesn't quite have the same quality of distribution. Agree in terms of positioning.
Fred and Herrera are similar off the ball but not quite as similar on it. Herrera is better with the ball against a pressing team, while that's not one of Fred's strengths.
I'm not disagreeing that Pogba doesn't quite fit into the team and style of play, just pointing out that the others aren't exactly perfect fits either.
He's inconsistent but asides from that he and Matic in a double pivot makes us vulnerable when defending. And even in build up play both of these players hold the ball for too long which slows the game down because the attack starts from them. We should have gotten Partey and not renewed Matic's contract
Let’s go for Xavi then. That’s the standard of a wow World Cup performance.
Xavi is an all time great, harsh to compare Pogba who can be a good player to him. Pogba had a good world Cup, if his performances for Utd were of the same level at more or less the role, no one would even be tempted to revisit his tournament performances.
Good and special are two different standard you know, I don’t know what you are arguing here.
I didn't watch the French game but was Pogba good? Defensively?
If he is then Ole is using him wrong
If he is then Ole is using him wrong
I think that’s a big part of the Pogba debate, fans expected (due to the hype and money paid) to be getting a player who would single handedly win games and put in 10/10 performances week in and week out. Pogba has the talent and on his day is capable of great things but he’s been inconsistent; maybe it’s position, injury disruption, Mourinho etc. I really hope he overcomes that this season and shows that he has the mentality but he won’t playing as a deep lying CM in the same way that Bruno wouldn’t either.
I'm arguing the fact that you say his world cup wasn't special, that the media overrated his performances etc etc.. I'd say for a player of his level, who is nowhere near as good nor as consistent as Xavi at his best, playing the way he did at the world cup was pretty special. It's all about the level of expectation we have of him, he's not among the best CMs ever so judging him with that reference is a bit harsh.
I noticed it since the first day of his signing, crazy distortion of his real level leading to ridiculious expectation (basically becoming Man Utd's savior). We're all disappointed it hasn't worked out as well we wanted for Utd.
The "Pogba had a great WC argument" was always an odd one. I said constantly to people that it was just 4 good games out of 7, but no one really cared trying to somehow translate that to prolonged club form. It never happens this way.
Yes it wasn’t special or amazing, even you only said it was just good. Good is different to something special or amazing standard, surely you should know the difference. But the fact you are arguing about it then you don’t know the difference.
Veron tried.
It was wishful from fans tbh. I cannot blame them, that disciplined player we saw, he would have been a big help at Man Utd.
Good for his level. I don't expect much more from him and his entire career has showed that he cannot consistently do more than that. If Pogba can be good for a few big games in a row then it's already pretty special in my eyes.
The only thing that would motivate Pogba would be if a Madrid move was on the cards ONLY if he starts performing consistently for us.
So, If Pogba starts performing now and a Madrid move was a certainty, I would take that now.
That's where I am with Pogba.
So, If Pogba starts performing now and a Madrid move was a certainty, I would take that now.
That's where I am with Pogba.
We signed Matic as a holding mid to accomodate Pogba? We signed Fred?
I agree we need a Matic upgrade but still does not mean you sign a £90m player and he needs 2 other WC midfielders next to him to perform.
Exactly this. KDB is a world class player and he plays well in most positions like you have said.
Pogba can only play well in an attacking role where he has 2 DM's and a left winger who defends, to me that is a big problem.
How come when Bruno came in none of us said, we need x,y,z for Bruno to shine?
Why is that though? It's got to be an attitude thing. Let's not pretend Pogba having a couple of good games is impressive. This isn't McTominay we are talking about. We all had/have high expectations from Pogba because he has exceptional ability on the ball, talent that many players could only wish for. Either his attitude stinks or he has serious mental issues.
No. I said we need a top level DM. BUT any team that wants to progress and achieve anything in this league or Europe does.
Chelsea have Kante
City have Fernandinho and others
Scousers have Fabinho amongst others that Klopp has turned from shite to gold
We have an over the hill Matic, who on his day is decent but totally unreliable for form and is nowhere near mobile enough. Fred is not an outright DM, again he's another that doesn't hold down a position.
So in summary we as a club require a top level DM, that does not equate to buying players to accommodate Pogba. The latter will benefit from the acquisition of one in the same way the whole team will, defence, midfield and forwards included. One of the most important positions on the pitch for us.
Right, so when we signed Matic he was 29, the same issues were labelled at Pogba.
Fernandinho is 35 and Matic is 32.
Let me ask you why we played so well with Matic Fred and Bruno? like 6 months ago? Because Bruno's workrate of the ball is brilliant.
You are just twisting it to suit your argument. You are well aware what I was talking about but you are still making useless argument. Why is it even relevant to what is special in your eyes with my post the one you replied, it’s irrelevant.
I only know he was never gonna the type of savior most fans hoped he'd be. Honestly I don't even wanna speculate about the reasons explaining his performances, I just go on about what I watch without pretending to hold the absolute truth. His world cup was for me, a breath of fresh air, he showed me stuff I had doubted he could display. His ability is unique like you said but he's never been close (at least at Man Utd) to playing consistently at a level close to his peak (whatever the reasons, the team and himself, I don't care)
There was a lot of mileage in those legs at 29, he still has spells of good form and when he does the whole team tends to improve, which is why a younger top level DM is crucial for us.
Do you think Matic has performed to Fabinho’s level for current champions Liverpool?
Is he as good as Kante?
When Matic is off the pace he is feckin woeful, see the first half against Spurs.
Fred is decent, but not a conventional DM, more of a box to box destroyer. Again decent player but he’s not going to fulfil the role Matic was bought for to sit in front of the defence as a true DM. Which is what we need.
Again, buying a top level DM should in no way be labelled as ‘buying players to accommodate Pogba.’
Nobody expected Pogba, or at least shouldn’t have, to play as an out and out DM. Because he’s not one. So we still need a DM with our without him.
Getting one happens to get the most from him (the same as it does with others.)
That's a lot of words to cement the opinion of the he's a left-sided Mezzala/only-looked-good-at-Juventus-on-the-left-side-of-a-midfield-three-and-with-Vidal-behind-him crowd.
No, I do not think Matic is anywhere as good as Kante or Fabinho.
I have said this for a while that a DM is one of the most crucial positions in modern day teams. In my opinion we should have looked at someone like Declan Rice or that mould of a player in the summer instead of VDB. Matic is done, he will play well in games we sit deep and soak pressure because he has players around him defending.
When we want to play an expansive game, he just does not have the legs and aggression to suit the style of play.
Matic can work if we have Fred next to him and a fast CB but we play with Lindelof, Matic, Maguire who all have the turning circle of a bus.
The problem with Pogba, he gets too complacent, always does well when he first comes into the team, looks hungry, motivated and then 3/4 games becomes complacent.
I do not know what it is but he needs to be dropped in a way that motivates him, not the Jose way where it all turned sour.
Yeah I think we agree then on the DM position. I'm not a huge Declan Rice fan but agree it would have probably served us better for improving our play on the pitch, so important is that DM role and how lacking we are in that department.
I know we haven't seen the best of Pogba and he needs to take his share of responsibility for that. I just think him sitting back with other half-measure DM's next to him is a recipe for disaster for this particular player.
It's almost like asking Bruno or VDB to sit back in a midfield two with the likes of Fred or Matic. It just wouldn't work. We would have known this before buying him.
We need a true DM who owns that position, a younger Matic in effect.
He had this at Juve and has it for France. No coincidence that he doesn't reach those levels for us without it, in a much more physically aggressive league.
But for fear of repeating myself, a top quality DM is what this team needs regardless of Pogba's inclusion in the squad or not. So why the club has not fully addressed that knowing the benefits it would have for us both as a team and for Pogba in isolation I really don't know.
I don't think we have the answer to the DM position with any of the players we have in the squad or with the likes of Garner. In my opinion it's every bit, if not more important, to sign a top level DM as it is to sign a CB and RW. And I'm guarantee there would be an improvement in both defence and midfield.
People forget that that was only five premier league games. Not exactly ground-breaking. Even then two of them were draws against Wolves and Everton. We've had plenty of runs like that over the years with Pogba.
If Matic and Fred were the players we 'bought to accommodate Pogba', we've bought badly. Matic has been poor more than he's been good during his time here. He was good for half a season in 17/18, was the second worst player in the squad for most of 18/19 before having a decent 1-2 months at the end, and had a good 2 month period in 19/20 when he returned from injury until lockdown. Less than a full season of good form spread out over three seasons. It makes Pogba look like Mr Consistent.
Pogba has also barely played with Fred. Fred was incredibly bad in his first season so didn't play all that often and shouldn't really be judged on that, then Pogba was injured most of last season. When he finally came back it was Fred who dropped to the bench.It simply comes down to this. How do you think Bruno would be going if we'd been playing him in a midfield two next to a Matic who is slow and poor more often than not? That's what we're judging Pogba on. Instead Bruno got to play with both Matic and Fred behind him which, even though it's not ideal, would also probably be the best combination for Pogba. Something that we've not actually seen other than a few games when Fred first joined and was struggling massively with the English game. The closest Pogba really came was when Ole first took over and he was mostly played next to Matic and Herrera (similar workrate to Fred but less of a playmaker) and we smashed everything in our way for a while. Even when our form dropped away at the end of that season the only game we lost when playing all three of them was the first leg against PSG.
Don't get me wrong, Pogba still has to take his fair share of the blame. He still should have been better than what he has been, and he's had a couple of periods where he's been extremely poor which there isn't any excuse for. But at the same time he's largely been set up to fail by poor team-building and management IMO, in a way that ensured he could never really show his true ability consistently. Now we're at the point we probably need to choose one of them (it'll be Bruno) and replace the other (Pogba) with a midfielder who's suited to that role. But it's (hopefully) going to be the same player we should have bought years ago to play next to Pogba.
Declan Rice is just one name I can think of, I am sure around Europe there is loads of DM's that are decent, we just wait until one becomes a household name before we make our approach.
I agree a DM is required but with Pogba, he done really well at Juve and France because there is not much pressure put on him. IMO he struggles when hes always pressed, he likes time on the ball, which you get in international football and in Italian football.
Look at the games he does well for us, he is given time and space, as soon as he comes against teams that press him, he tries too much or holds onto the ball.
Agree this is a frustration, I think he tries to slow the game and gain control, he needs to know when it's possible and when it's dangerous, it leads to counterattacks quite often. If I were Ole I would drum it into him to play it simple, quick passing and just keep the tempo. Do the basics and play yourself back into form. Rather than trying to do too much with the ball.
We miss that player like Scholes (irreplaceable I know) who sits and dictates the tempo. We are a bit rudderless in midfield without that. I agree though that Paul needs to improve, his displays beginning of this season have been as bad as any he's had in his time here and I'm usually one to stick up for him.
I think we should drop him, but then phase him back if we really start clicking again. He plays well when others play well, but I think the system of 4231 won't suit him. A flat 3 can do wonders, unsure though if VDB would actually perform better though. If he does it can be a tough road back for Pogba, as he's not a screener like Matic, he's not as effective in a 10 like Bruno.
It’s time for a clean break for all parties involved I think.
We can debate whether or not Pogba is world class all day long but the fact we’re still divided on that matter and he’s still batting his eyelids at Madrid despite being a shell of a player this season suggests the best thing for all parties is a break up at this point.
It’s just not worked out here for him, for whatever reason, I don’t really care. I’d just rather have him sold at this point and the money reinvested into someone like Grealish or a quality DM.
This experiment has run its course now.
We can debate whether or not Pogba is world class all day long but the fact we’re still divided on that matter and he’s still batting his eyelids at Madrid despite being a shell of a player this season suggests the best thing for all parties is a break up at this point.
It’s just not worked out here for him, for whatever reason, I don’t really care. I’d just rather have him sold at this point and the money reinvested into someone like Grealish or a quality DM.
This experiment has run its course now.
Exactly.
I mean France played him with Rabiot and Kante. I don't see either as a DMC.
People forget that that was only five premier league games. Not exactly ground-breaking. Even then two of them were draws against Wolves and Everton. We've had plenty of runs like that over the years with Pogba.
If Matic and Fred were the players we 'bought to accommodate Pogba', we've bought badly. Matic has been poor more than he's been good during his time here. He was good for half a season in 17/18, was the second worst player in the squad for most of 18/19 before having a decent 1-2 months at the end, and had a good 2 month period in 19/20 when he returned from injury until lockdown. Less than a full season of good form spread out over three seasons. It makes Pogba look like Mr Consistent.
It simply comes down to this. How do you think Bruno would be going if we'd been playing him in a midfield two next to a Matic who is slow and poor more often than not? That's what we're judging Pogba on. Instead Bruno got to play with both Matic and Fred behind him which, even though it's not ideal, would also probably be the best combination for Pogba. Something that we've not actually seen other than a few games when Fred first joined and was struggling massively with the English game. The closest Pogba really came was when Ole first took over and he was mostly played next to Matic and Herrera (similar workrate to Fred but less of a playmaker) and we smashed everything in our way for a while. Even when our form dropped away at the end of that season the only game we lost when playing all three of them was the first leg against PSG.
Don't get me wrong, Pogba still has to take his fair share of the blame. He still should have been better than what he has been, and he's had a couple of periods where he's been extremely poor which there isn't any excuse for. But at the same time he's largely been set up to fail by poor team-building and management IMO, in a way that ensured he could never really show his true ability consistently. Now we're at the point we probably need to choose one of them (it'll be Bruno) and replace the other (Pogba) with a midfielder who's suited to that role. But it's (hopefully) going to be the same player we should have bought years ago to play next to Pogba.
Pogba also had spells playing in the free role or as a 10 under Jose and Ole. Fact is he has both performed and underperformed in every position he has been asked to play, hence the puzzle still hasn't been solved and rival fans are still making jokes about signing players to finally unlock Pogba
Really wish he shone brighter with us. Love watching him when he's in full stride. Just a classy languid style. I just feel for whatever reason he's not as motivated for us as he could be. Years of his career are just passing by without him lighting the league up like it seems its there for him to do. He's had the virus recently but overall his time here just provokes debate. Not actually sure we'll get much for him and I dont really want to improve his wages either.......
Sums up my own thoughts perfectly. I know I’ll be looking back on his United career in a few years time mainly with a sense of sadness.
Ah come on, Kante is incredible and Rabiot is a defensive midfielder himself. Both of whom would get into our starting 11.
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