Appreciated.
6
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
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- Goals
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- Assists
- 6
- Yellow cards
- 9
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Appreciated.
From what I can gather, people struggle to have balanced views on our players in general and Paul Pogba in particular. Especially if we lose a game and a player hasn't done anything amazing individually, then he was "abysmal" according to some in here. Also the converse if we win and they pull off a memorable moment, then they were magnificent and all else gets masked. There's no balance in the arguments, just raw emotions.
The above goes doubly for Pogba because he is a high-profile, high-salary, polarising player. The final is prime example of that. Pogba played in a 2-man pivot with McTominay and according to the heat maps he was also the deeper of the two midfielders, most often asked to bring the ball out of the defence and shield the back 4. As @Roane explained, he had the most touches, most passes/long balls and the highest % of accurate passes out of any midfielder, as well as the most interceptions out of anyone on the pitch including defenders. He had 0 dribbles attempted (to McTominay's 6) because he played the type of game most often not associated with Pogba; the measured disciplined game of a DM or deep playmaker. We (rightfully) lambaste him for taking players on and losing position in dangerous areas when he plays in that position, and now that he does exactly that we criticize him for not having enough impact.
The way I see it people are throwing their toys out of the pram because we lost a final to an inferior team and one of our star players didn't pull something magical out of the hat, despite literally playing in Fred's position. Again, it's an emotional rather than logical response. Did he have an amazing game? No, admittedly Villarreal made it easy for him by sitting deep, not contesting the midfield much and not really pressing. Did he have a bad game? Again no, he did the job he had to do: bring the ball out, keep it moving and protect the back 4 when needed.
His job was not to put a goal on a plate for the forwards, or to take players on. If it is anyone's, I'd argue that's Bruno's job playing the most advanced, free-roaming #10 role with no other responsibilities. We had effectively 4 offensive players (out of 10 outfield players) on the pitch who, despite us having %60+ possession and complete dominance in midfield, they failed to create any link-ups, combinations, 1-2s or dribbles to open up the Villarreal defence. Thus only managed 2 shots on target for the whole game but that's not on Pogba though, that's on the 4 attackers.
The above goes doubly for Pogba because he is a high-profile, high-salary, polarising player. The final is prime example of that. Pogba played in a 2-man pivot with McTominay and according to the heat maps he was also the deeper of the two midfielders, most often asked to bring the ball out of the defence and shield the back 4. As @Roane explained, he had the most touches, most passes/long balls and the highest % of accurate passes out of any midfielder, as well as the most interceptions out of anyone on the pitch including defenders. He had 0 dribbles attempted (to McTominay's 6) because he played the type of game most often not associated with Pogba; the measured disciplined game of a DM or deep playmaker. We (rightfully) lambaste him for taking players on and losing position in dangerous areas when he plays in that position, and now that he does exactly that we criticize him for not having enough impact.
The way I see it people are throwing their toys out of the pram because we lost a final to an inferior team and one of our star players didn't pull something magical out of the hat, despite literally playing in Fred's position. Again, it's an emotional rather than logical response. Did he have an amazing game? No, admittedly Villarreal made it easy for him by sitting deep, not contesting the midfield much and not really pressing. Did he have a bad game? Again no, he did the job he had to do: bring the ball out, keep it moving and protect the back 4 when needed.
His job was not to put a goal on a plate for the forwards, or to take players on. If it is anyone's, I'd argue that's Bruno's job playing the most advanced, free-roaming #10 role with no other responsibilities. We had effectively 4 offensive players (out of 10 outfield players) on the pitch who, despite us having %60+ possession and complete dominance in midfield, they failed to create any link-ups, combinations, 1-2s or dribbles to open up the Villarreal defence. Thus only managed 2 shots on target for the whole game but that's not on Pogba though, that's on the 4 attackers.
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Anyone knows if Pogba's fitness was in question at the end of our season? Yesterday he was the only french starter that went outside and trained with a physical trainer.
This thread is going to be insufferable during the Euros. Undoubtedly, any good performance will be greeted with some sort of ‘playing for a move’ conspiracy theory.
I’ll see you all again next season or if he finally leaves. Happy summer.
I’ll see you all again next season or if he finally leaves. Happy summer.
I think meeting any criticism of Pogba with "agenda" and "narrative" gives the impression you're defending the player no matter what.
Then there's the various caveats for any bad performances. So for instance anything before December doesn't count due to covid. Or if he has a bad game you're quick to point out so did the whole team. Nearly always an excuse.
Also when a somebody is a fan of a particular player a strange thing happens, they tend not to like who that players is in direct competition with. Or who that player is often compared to. In this case it's Bruno.
So not only are you the biggest contributor in this thread but you are also the biggest contributor in the Bruno thread. That isn't a coincidemce and there it's mainly negative from you.
Now all that's fine. You have a favourite. No big deal.
But I think it's a bit much to be consistently accusing others of having an agenda or bias, when clearly you have your own.
Honestly don't get the fascination with the 'we must keep him at all costs' mentality. I have watched United since the late 80's and he doesn't come anywhere near the best midfielders I have seen in a red shirt.
Robbo, Scholesy, Keano and Ince are clearly well ahead of him. I wouldn't even put him above likes of Carrick who was a brilliant player for us.
He's now entering the final year of his deal and no new contract seems imminent. It's time to say goodbye I'm afraid. He's clearly a talented lad but it takes more than natural talent to become a truly top player and he's failed at doing that. He gets caught on the ball in dangerous areas far too many times to be mentioned alongside likes of KDB.
We took a gamble at bringing him back for huge money and it hasn't worked out. He's not been terrible for us nor has he been great. He's just been okay. And for £90m we want way more than okay from him.
Whether you think he's utterly brilliant or just decent like I do....can we please stop pretending the world will end if he leaves. It won't guys.
Robbo, Scholesy, Keano and Ince are clearly well ahead of him. I wouldn't even put him above likes of Carrick who was a brilliant player for us.
He's now entering the final year of his deal and no new contract seems imminent. It's time to say goodbye I'm afraid. He's clearly a talented lad but it takes more than natural talent to become a truly top player and he's failed at doing that. He gets caught on the ball in dangerous areas far too many times to be mentioned alongside likes of KDB.
We took a gamble at bringing him back for huge money and it hasn't worked out. He's not been terrible for us nor has he been great. He's just been okay. And for £90m we want way more than okay from him.
Whether you think he's utterly brilliant or just decent like I do....can we please stop pretending the world will end if he leaves. It won't guys.
It won't end but at worst he's in our top five most talented and important players and do you trust the glazers to bring in an adequate replacement? With a year left on his contract we will also not get proper market value so I think its very clear the best outcome for United is he signs a new deal. Whether selling him after that is the best move is debatable.
That depends on what the wage is. If he becomes the highest paid player in the squad I'd soon he left personally as I truly don't believe he's earned that. And what a terrible precedent that will set throughout the squad too.
I honestly think his time at United has come to an end. He's not been amazing for us and if he wants a new challenge we should let him go. Sell him for whatever we can get and go and replace him with somebody else. Plenty of good players out there. Think Saul Niguez would suit us more than Pogba does and he's apparently wanting a new challenge outside of Atletico.
Perhaps you have a point regarding Pogba, I feel I will say when he’s been poor and when he’s been great. I won’t go over the top with praise for an assist that barely warrants a mention etc. The defence is because the same posters appear with negative comments beyond a single game, like he has one good game in ten....after his first bad game in ten. So yes I probably do come off defensive in hindsight, however it is borne of years of seeing Pogba be the fall guy and the same posters repeatedly trying to diminish his achievements eg World Cup, goals and assists etc or any single good performance by mentioning he lost the ball twice...who doesn’t.
But yes I take your point on that.
Pogba and Bruno are my two favourite players so no surprise that they have more posts by me than other players. A quick read through my posts in Bruno’s thread should prove extremely objective.
If that matters at all, then we've fecked that up for many years now as is.
Pogba is already the 2nd highest earner (allegedly on 290k pw) after DDG (allegedly on 350k pw), who isn't only the most well paid player in the squad but the best paid GK in the world. Does DDG deserve it? Feck no. He's been average since Mourinho's first season and is even losing his starting place to Hendo. Does that affect the squad? Either it doesn't or if it does, it's already done. Would it matter if Pogba matches him or leapfrogs him to 1st? Seriously doubt it. We had Sanchez on more than that and our 3rd-4th highest earners are Martial and Rashford on 250k. Arguably at least the former, is overpaid given his contributions to us. Also Jones is on 80k pw so he can play 3 games a season.
We're Man Utd, we always wind up overpaying players both in fees and salaries. It doesn't start or end with Pogba. Unless Pogba asks for something obscene that seriously messes our payment structure, then whether we try to keep him or not should be a footballing decision.
You mention Saul, who has 5 years left on his contract. He'll probably want a couple hundred thousand per week, on top of a transfer fee that will be in excess of 60m for a player of his calibre and on that long a contract, for sure. If it's only 60m and you amortise that over a 5year contract, that's 12m a year to Atletico (or 230k pw) before the players salary. With his salary and agent fees included, you're comfortably looking at 400-450k pw total for Saul, probably more. In other words he won't come cheaper than renewing Pogba by any stretch. Same goes for Grealish that will cost 70-80m plus his salary.
So the decision should be a footballing one. Can we get a player who we feel is a better fit for us then Pogba? If so then cool, let him walk. But if not, we should try to renew. Losing Pogba and not replacing him with someone as good or better will not be the end of us by any means, but we won't get any closer to challenging for titles either.
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Great post
Lot of sense mate, Like you dont dislike Pogba but somehow we are not hitting peaks with him. Hopefully we can use his money to get some one like Soumare/Zakaria/Carmavinga/Tchouameni(Monaco) who can improve our midfield OR pay some of that to get Grealish
Shouldn't be too hard tbh.
If you think that's very easy, you're either underestimating Pogba or overestimating the club's ability to find and attract top class midfielders.
For all the understandable frustration he causes (due to him not being as good as we expected him to be, given the reputation and the financial outlay) he's still one of our most influential players and we play better with him than without him. We signed plenty of midfielders that proved to be false dawns. You'd have to go as far back as Carrick to find a playmaking CM that you could justifiably say was more influential and effective for us than Pogba.
You may have a point with that second part. But then Pogba himself isn't a top class midfielder. Certainly not on the evidence of the last 5 years he's not anyway. Great player on paper though.
Certainly yes. In the last 5 years he went went to the final of Euro 2016 with France and won the World Cup with them in 2018. That midfield was dominating everyone it met, including the Rakitic-Brozovic-Modric midfield of Croatia.
There's plenty of evidence he's a top class midfielder. He's occasionally showing it for us too, but he's just not doing consistently enough for us. And the rest of our team is not as superior as France or Juventus were against their opposition, to just shrug off Pogba's bad days. When Pogba is not having a good day in midfield for us, we're affected. Juventus had too much for anyone in Italy (9 titles in a row?) and would still batter most opposition even if Pogba was having a mare, so it was being masked. Same with France.
No, it won't. He will not show anything special that we didn't see before.
Fair enough.
I’ve definitely been a vocal critic whose mellowed a lot towards him as the season progressed
I think he’s been one of our best players in the last few months but on the left. He’s been flying around tackling and tracking. Yeah he's still inconsistent but he’s versatile and on his day he wins matches. I’d rather Pogba got the Sanchez money than Sanchez if you get me. DDG is nowhere near the best keeper in the world but he’s on that money. You also don’t let Pogba leave for free twice
Sign him up and if it doesn’t work out you get a fee for him next summer or the summer after.
I think he’s been one of our best players in the last few months but on the left. He’s been flying around tackling and tracking. Yeah he's still inconsistent but he’s versatile and on his day he wins matches. I’d rather Pogba got the Sanchez money than Sanchez if you get me. DDG is nowhere near the best keeper in the world but he’s on that money. You also don’t let Pogba leave for free twice
Sign him up and if it doesn’t work out you get a fee for him next summer or the summer after.
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I seriously don't see what's there to discuss about Pogba except his invidual performances after games, it will be same at the tournament. He's always been hot and cold player, his Juventus career was basically the same as it is now, and there is a reason why many weren't very keen on him when we wanted to sign him, he was never a key player at any team he's been part of, except for few games a season, and those were mostly not really important games. In big games his performances were mostly poor to average, with one good in about ten games.
Saying that and knowing that, I expected him to finally have top performance against Villareal and prove his worth because it was another average season for him, but it was the same old Pogba in big games, where he plays literally the same as 10 his other teammates in that game.
In other words, he is not a top top player to build the team around, he can be an important part of the team and that's about it, but he actually missed many games for us for injuries or whatever reasons over these past few seasons.
Saying that and knowing that, I expected him to finally have top performance against Villareal and prove his worth because it was another average season for him, but it was the same old Pogba in big games, where he plays literally the same as 10 his other teammates in that game.
In other words, he is not a top top player to build the team around, he can be an important part of the team and that's about it, but he actually missed many games for us for injuries or whatever reasons over these past few seasons.
@Jeppers7 I really would like to know your view on Pogba’s best position with us and the best thing what the club should do with him.
I don’t see him as a double pivot, he’s not effective enough. When he played as double pivot, he needed Kante and Matuidi.
I see him playing in diamond or playing on the left. But first of all, we don’t play diamond and the fact we are targeting Sancho makes it so obvious. Second, Pogba’s lack of end product contribution doesn’t make him the best choice playing in our front four. Isn’t it better we just move him on rather than giving him that fat new contract which likely to be more than DDG?
I don’t see him as a double pivot, he’s not effective enough. When he played as double pivot, he needed Kante and Matuidi.
I see him playing in diamond or playing on the left. But first of all, we don’t play diamond and the fact we are targeting Sancho makes it so obvious. Second, Pogba’s lack of end product contribution doesn’t make him the best choice playing in our front four. Isn’t it better we just move him on rather than giving him that fat new contract which likely to be more than DDG?
There's no way we're selling Pogba for the simple fact he'll want that fat signing bonus when he's on a free. We should go into this transfer window with that in mind.
Come next season, he should start on the left while Rashford gets his shoulder surgery. After that he'll probably have a really good season as Ole won't be forced to play him every game. He can play in CM if the match asks for it (Fred + Pogba got us in first place before his injury), he can make an impact off the bench (He was magnificent @Milan away), he can fill LW or 10 (and a lot better than Donny can at that). It's also a perfect way to ease Donny and or a new midfielder into the squad.
In short, use him but don't build around him. It could maybe work with Ndidi next to him, but if we go buy a pitbull DM and Pogba leaves, we'll have 0 creativity in midfield vs West Brom/Villarreal etc.
It also wouldn't make sense to build around him because Bruno is naturally a 10 and Pogba is unproven in that deeper position. His best spells at Juve came as an 8, which would be like him and McTominay further forward with a DM behind them. He has been really good as a DM at times but not for long stretches like he was at Juve.
Sure maybe Bruno could adapt to play as an 8 next to Pogba with a DM behind them, but why risk the possibility of Bruno performing worse, while Pogba will likely leave on a free?
He was a very good player this season if you dont take his status/salary/price tag into account. 5th best for me. Bit of a rough start and should've ended way better in the final but he's been good for most of it. Us dropping form and points after his injury can attest to that.
It would be a bit of a dick move to leave on a free (especially while stringing the club and fans along about a potential new contract, which I imagine is how it's gonna play out), considering the history, but I think it's beneath UTD to threaten to hold him hostage for a year if he doesn't feck off.
We should also really stop harping about Raiola as that is exactly what he wants. Be the fat mean gluton while Pogba can be the dancing celebrations guy without the dirty business rubbing off on him. If he can do Ramadan while playing sports at the highest level he sure as hell can drop or control his agent.
Come next season, he should start on the left while Rashford gets his shoulder surgery. After that he'll probably have a really good season as Ole won't be forced to play him every game. He can play in CM if the match asks for it (Fred + Pogba got us in first place before his injury), he can make an impact off the bench (He was magnificent @Milan away), he can fill LW or 10 (and a lot better than Donny can at that). It's also a perfect way to ease Donny and or a new midfielder into the squad.
In short, use him but don't build around him. It could maybe work with Ndidi next to him, but if we go buy a pitbull DM and Pogba leaves, we'll have 0 creativity in midfield vs West Brom/Villarreal etc.
It also wouldn't make sense to build around him because Bruno is naturally a 10 and Pogba is unproven in that deeper position. His best spells at Juve came as an 8, which would be like him and McTominay further forward with a DM behind them. He has been really good as a DM at times but not for long stretches like he was at Juve.
Sure maybe Bruno could adapt to play as an 8 next to Pogba with a DM behind them, but why risk the possibility of Bruno performing worse, while Pogba will likely leave on a free?
He was a very good player this season if you dont take his status/salary/price tag into account. 5th best for me. Bit of a rough start and should've ended way better in the final but he's been good for most of it. Us dropping form and points after his injury can attest to that.
It would be a bit of a dick move to leave on a free (especially while stringing the club and fans along about a potential new contract, which I imagine is how it's gonna play out), considering the history, but I think it's beneath UTD to threaten to hold him hostage for a year if he doesn't feck off.
We should also really stop harping about Raiola as that is exactly what he wants. Be the fat mean gluton while Pogba can be the dancing celebrations guy without the dirty business rubbing off on him. If he can do Ramadan while playing sports at the highest level he sure as hell can drop or control his agent.
I agree with this fully. Making him stay will set a bad precedent in terms of both contract wages, agent drama, playing position.
I feel his playing position is similar to coutinho at pool. Undoubtedly talented and capable of some match winning performance but overall bad for the team
Strange then since he's public said he wants to move twice, why no bids?
so what we are really saying is that he’s only at his best when playing alongside one of the best midfielders of this generation, in Kante. So all we need is to buy Kante…
I am saying if he was that good we would have an offer several times already.
Strange that I don't remember this. When did Pogba publicly say such a thing remind me?
During Ole's 1st summer he said something about a fresh challenge whilst out in China, caused a huge uproar on this forum.
Class
Two different papers....same quote. Doesn’t mean he said it twice.
Its the same data, of course they are talking about the same time. One just adds a bit more detail I think.
People are obsessed labeling him as inconsistent. But truth be told, which player will you call out as consistent?
Bruno? Rash? Martial? Mct?
Let me answer for you, none of our mfs and fws are consistent. If the team plays poorly, almost all of them do - same with Pogba.
It will be a much bigger loss than his critics will admit and its a step backwards, not forward.
I am certain he will have many top performances when the team improves around him.
It's easily forgotten he had a great spell this season, being arguably our best performer over a longer period.
Bruno? Rash? Martial? Mct?
Let me answer for you, none of our mfs and fws are consistent. If the team plays poorly, almost all of them do - same with Pogba.
It will be a much bigger loss than his critics will admit and its a step backwards, not forward.
I am certain he will have many top performances when the team improves around him.
It's easily forgotten he had a great spell this season, being arguably our best performer over a longer period.
Not sure what point you're trying to make here.
Rashford and McTominay are young. There's more room for them to grow out of their inconsistency,
Martial is a failed experiment, by the look of it(he's got a season to prove that wrong, I imagine). Bruno's numbers speak for themselves, despite the inconsistency. There's still effectiveness about him. Rashford too.
Pogba is 28, a WC winner, a leader and well experienced. Also, by far thihs team's most talented player. He's had plenty room and time to grow out of that inconsistency.
Instead, we've had every manager try to locate his best position and so far failed. Even in that LM role, his performances have been up and down.
He says he likes to play from deep, but we can't trust him there. Place him on LM, still too up and down. And there's no chance in hell he's displacing a fully fit Rashford, so that should be a forgotten ordeal.
It will be a step forward to look for players who give more balance to the team.
I'm really getting tired of this belief that one player is the be all and end all at the club, despite all the issues and furor that have surrounded and continue to surround him.
On top of that, all this talk of a new deal has been dragging on for over 6 months now. I'm more and more dubious as to whether he will sign, and I'm deeply averse to making him out highest paid player.
That just seems like going down the route of breaking the wage budget all over again.
Your point seems to be that it’s ok for all the other players to be inconsistent bar Pogba. That despite the team not playing well....he should. Nobody else.
LM still too up and down? Really ? Only if you base that assessment to a much different bar than the likes of Rashford, Bruno and Maguire. Watching him there this season has been mostly a joy, shame it’s been an ordeal for you. He trailed off towards the end of the season and the final he played where he’s played for 90% of his time for us. We haven’t tried to locate his best position, we’ve played him where it’s suited us more than anything and Pogba has got on with it.
Surround all our players with better players and a better system and watch them develop and grow. Hopefully we do sell Pogba so many fans have a mental block when it comes to him. It’s tiring.
The season is over. No sign of a new contract. He's definitely leaving.
I would sell him and get Tielemans. Not worth keeping him for another year and miss out on 50m.
Read an article on MEN about a possible swap with Juve for Ronaldo. How would people on here feel about it?
Yeah, Madrid must be able to shake down the gov. for £50m in order to sign the Pog. He'd be a great signing for them.
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