[Borys]

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

I am. I want a serious answer to a question why are we a better team with him in it. It's not obvious.

If I got an answer he's better than Fred then fine (hardly an achievement but still). Or people believe he's a better winger than Rashford?

 

[Ali Dia]

Ill admit I took Jose’s side and harboured some residual dislike towards Pogba and Martial until recently. My thinking back then when it kicked off was player power has us where we are. There was definitely some fan version of PTSD going on . I felt like we gave the players the keys to the club and they were taking the piss. Linagard doing his little dances, the fashion brands, the very mixed levels of effort, all the lame soundbytes and excuses “we are United we will do better in the next game” and bla bla bla

By the time Jose won us the EL I was thinking ok this guy is win at all costs and we are back on the right track even if the football wasn’t great. This guy is a bit tougher and he’ll root out any lazy players. Zlatan was also a leader which we’d been missing. The transfers were an improvement from LVG. Then the wheels start to fall off and I automatically blamed the players thinking this is all just player power again. They’ve stopped playing for him at the start of a bloody season.... and that was it really until Ole came in showed you can have a happy club, move players on, drop players whatever. You can do it all without being a total nut job about it

 

[youmeletsfly]

Is it me, or has he actually put on more muscle recently?
I wish we cd try him ahead of McFred, but with Bruno as a false nine and Rashford and Greenwood as wide forwards.

He did put a bit more muscle on him but I think that hinders his game a bit. He seems to be a bit slower than last season.

 

[Jeppers7]

I am. I want a serious answer to a question why are we a better team with him in it. It's not obvious.

If I got an answer he's better than Fred then fine (hardly an achievement but still). Or people believe he's a better winger than Rashford?

Because he’s a brilliant footballer. With Pogba, Bruno, Rashford, Greenwood, Maguire, Shaw, AWB we might have the basis of an excellent team, something we haven’t had in most of Pogba’s years, and something none of those players alone will manage to make.

The more brilliant players you have the more you can cover for Pogba having bad games or Bruno having the three months he’s just had overall, or Maguire struggling in certain games....because other players drag you through. What we need to do is add to what we have. Not try to blame one player for all our failings.

 

[Borys]

Than when he isn't in it.

I thought that was obvious.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

It's only obvious until you check the facts. We're getting more points, scoring more and conceding less (per game) without him in the team:

- with Pogba on the pitch, we score every 56' and concede every 80'
- with Bruno on the pitch, we score every 45' and concede every 91'
- with Fred on the pitch, we score every 46' and concede every 100'

So if statement "We are, without question, a better team with him in it" refer to average OR direct competition in Fred or Bruno, then it's a false statement.

 

[Jeppers7]

It's only obvious until you check the facts. We're getting more points, scoring more and conceding less (per game) without him in the team:

- with Pogba on the pitch, we score every 56' and concede every 80'
- with Bruno on the pitch, we score every 45' and concede every 91'
- with Fred on the pitch, we score every 46' and concede every 100'

So if statement "We are, without question, a better team with him in it" refer to average OR direct competition in Fred or Bruno, then it's a false statement.

winning 6-2, 9-0 and losing 6-1 will definitely do that.

we typically score 1.5 goals per game. Those 15 goals are almost a third of all the goals we’ve scored all season. It’s a pathetic use of stats.

 

[ivaldo]

winning 6-2, 9-0 and losing 6-1 will definitely do that.

we typically score 1.5 goals per game. Those 15 goals are almost a third of all the goals we’ve scored all season. It’s a pathetic use of stats.

 

[roonster09]

It's only obvious until you check the facts.

It was obvious what @ivaldo meant in that post. When he said we are better team with him in it, it's obvious he was comparing team without him in it. That's the obvious part, not the record. The stats were posted by Dante yesterday.

 

[Ali Dia]

It's only obvious until you check the facts. We're getting more points, scoring more and conceding less (per game) without him in the team:

- with Pogba on the pitch, we score every 56' and concede every 80'
- with Bruno on the pitch, we score every 45' and concede every 91'
- with Fred on the pitch, we score every 46' and concede every 100'

So if statement "We are, without question, a better team with him in it" refer to average OR direct competition in Fred or Bruno, then it's a false statement.

When you consider he’s been coming back from injury or covid for nearly 2 seasons I think that’s going to skew the stats. Also the high scoring games he missed out on. I saw on Reddit that since he’s arrived we’ve won quite a few more than we’ve lost when he plays which I guess is a fairer way of looking at it. People already forget how absolutely reliant on Pogba we were until Bruno got here.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Pogba has been noticeably working very hard for the team lately. People once labelled him lazy but I think it was more an issue that he felt he had to do everything by himself.

Now he's got a decent team alongside him he can just concentrate on what he does best. Since playing LW he's started adding more assists to his game too, it's actually a decent position for him.

I think with Rashfords injury issues we should keep playing him there for the time being.

 

[Borys]

It was obvious what @ivaldo meant in that post. When he said we are better team with him in it, it's obvious he was comparing team without him in it. That's the obvious part, not the record. The stats were posted by Dante yesterday.

It's obviously not true though. Regarding Dante stats - couldn't find them, so mine must be enough unless proven otherwise.

When you consider he’s been coming back from injury or covid for nearly 2 seasons I think that’s going to skew the stats. Also the high scoring games he missed out on. I saw on Reddit that since he’s arrived we’ve won quite a few more than we’ve lost when he plays which I guess is a fairer way of looking at it. People already forget how absolutely reliant on Pogba we were until Bruno got here.

It isn't because firstly we've upgraded on half a team since he's joined, secondly I've just shown you stats from this season which proove otherwise. We could also look at De Gea the same way ("since he came here") and by that logic he'd still be considered a half-god.

We've collected 63PTS over 31 games, meaning 2,03pts per average. We average 1,86 on average when Pogba played. I don't know how I can make it any clearer.

By the way, his injuries are a problem, not an excuse.

 

[The Original]

It's only obvious until you check the facts. We're getting more points, scoring more and conceding less (per game) without him in the team:

- with Pogba on the pitch, we score every 56' and concede every 80'
- with Bruno on the pitch, we score every 45' and concede every 91'
- with Fred on the pitch, we score every 46' and concede every 100'

So if statement "We are, without question, a better team with him in it" refer to average OR direct competition in Fred or Bruno, then it's a false statement.

Well this is thoroughly moot and irrelevant argument since Pogba, Bruno and Fred play together more often than any other combination. In fact Bruno has played in every premier league game Pogba has, and Fred will have played almost all of them. Other factors:

1.Bruno and Fred were likely also on the pitch in the same period as Pogba. So what we need to see is what their stats are with him vs without him as opposed to a season long aggregation for each player.

2. Both Fred and Bruno have played many more games than Pogba so what we have for Pogba is a sample size that's much smaller and therefore unreliable.

3. Neither Fred nor Bruno has been injured or had Covid19 so the use of aggregated data is not truly reflective.

Thus, a diligent researcher would know to adjust for these factors by selecting a period of games where the "all things being equal" condition applies. This means you choose the same number of games, randomly, from a collection of games where each player was fully fit and played with the exact same teammates and tactics (since coaching affects team play) . I would go further and say that since this analysis is about how each player affects team play, all set pieces for and against should be excluded because set pieces inherently rely on individuality.


It's nearly impossible to do but this is to highlight to you the unreliability of your approach. Given these constraints, I would then say let's merely consider any 10 games where each player was fully fit... I'd be interested in seeing the results.

Now all of this is a tangent because Pogba, Bruno and Fred are the first choice midfielders at this moment. I don't see why you are making it an argument of Pogba vs Fred and Bruno when it should be a comparison of who would play if he were out which is McTominay and then Matic.

 

[lost7]

It's obviously not true though. Regarding Dante stats - couldn't find them, so mine must be enough unless proven otherwise.


It isn't because firstly we've upgraded on half a team since he's joined, secondly I've just shown you stats from this season which proove otherwise. We could also look at De Gea the same way ("since he came here") and by that logic he'd still be considered a half-god.

We've collected 63PTS over 31 games, meaning 2,03pts per average. We average 1,86 on average when Pogba played. I don't know how I can make it any clearer.

By the way, his injuries are a problem, not an excuse.

Hope this doesn't come off as an attack, but if you're legitimately arguing we're a better team without Pogba than with him this season, then you are clueless. And providing stats without any context doesn't make your arguments any more solid.

For example, Pogba missed the 9 0 battering against the 10 men Southampton. That would have obviously skewed the numbers, don't you think?

Also, how many important goals or contributions that have won us games has he had this season? I think that would be a much more interesting stat and would clearly highlight how important he's been to our season

 

[Borys]

Well this is thoroughly moot and irrelevant argument since Pogba, Bruno and Fred play together more often than any other combination. In fact Bruno has played in every premier league game Pogba has, and Fred will have played almost all of them.

1.Bruno and Fred were likely also on the pitch in the same period as Pogba. So what we need to see is what their stats are with him vs without him as opposed to a season long aggregation for each player.

2. Both Fred and Bruno have played many more games than Pogba so what we have for Pogba is a sample size that's much smaller and therefore unreliable.

3. Neither Fred nor Bruno has been injured or had Covid19 so the use of aggregated data is not truly reflective.

Thus, a diligent researcher would know to adjust for these factors by selecting a period of games where the "all things being equal" condition applies. This means you choose the same number of games, randomly, from a collection of games where each player was fully fit and played with the exact same teammates and tactics (since coaching affects team play) . I would go further and say that since this analysis is about how each player affects team play, all set pieces for and against should be excluded because set pieces inherently rely on individuality.


It's nearly impossible to do but this is to highlight to you the unreliability of your approach. Given these constraints, I would then say let's merely consider any 10 games where each player was fully fit... I'd be interested in seeing the results.

Now all of this is a tangent because Pogba, Bruno and Fred are the first choice midfielders at this moment. I don't see why you are making it an argument of Pogba vs Fred and Bruno when it should be a comparison of who would play if he were out which is McTominay and then Matic.

Mate I just want to see some evidence that we are a better team with Pogba than without it, because every number I pulled out so far shows otherwise. Somebody else made that point and I just questioned it with data, so it's not me who needs to support his claim.

If you have a better approach than to show large-sample data then go ahead. By the way, in one sentence you say something about small sample size (is 1800' small sample size?), and in another you suggest to break it down to few games with frozen factors.

Hope this doesn't come off as an attack, but if you're legitimately arguing we're a better team without Pogba than with him this season, then you are clueless. And providing stats without any context doesn't make your arguments any more solid.

For example, Pogba missed the 9 0 battering against the 10 men Southampton. That would have obviously skewed the numbers, don't you think?

Also, how many important goals or contributions that have won us games has he had this season? I think that would be a much more interesting stat and would clearly highlight how important he's been to our season

"Stats without any context" is a new expression to undermine any stats without saying anything specific.

The bolded part would be interesting to see I agree, but it's not my point to make. I've already done my job.

 

[georgipep]

It's only obvious until you check the facts. We're getting more points, scoring more and conceding less (per game) without him in the team:

- with Pogba on the pitch, we score every 56' and concede every 80'
- with Bruno on the pitch, we score every 45' and concede every 91'
- with Fred on the pitch, we score every 46' and concede every 100'

So if statement "We are, without question, a better team with him in it" refer to average OR direct competition in Fred or Bruno, then it's a false statement.

You should compare PPG, GF, GA and every other metric with him on the pitch and without him. What you're comparing above is 3 players who have been simultaneously on the pitch for A LOT of minutes and is useless for this debate.

 

[georgipep]

Mate I just want to see some evidence that we are a better team with Pogba than without it, because every number I pulled out so far shows otherwise. Somebody else made that point and I just questioned it with data, so it's not me who needs to support his claim.

If you have a better approach than to show large-sample data then go ahead. By the way, in one sentence you say something about small sample size (is 1800' small sample size?), and in another you suggest to break it down to few games with frozen factors.


"Stats without any context" is a new expression to undermine any stats without saying anything specific.

The bolded part would be interesting to see I agree, but it's not my point to make. I've already done my job.

You claim you want to see evidence to prove the point you argue against but you also do not provide any evidence to prove your own point.

 

[TsuWave]

Bruno has come into the club and shown him up.

has Luke Shaw's great form shown Lindelof up?

Bruno and Pogba do not play same position. You think Bruno would have the numbers he has playing in a midfield-two?

 

[SoCross]

Don’t know about stats but I rather him in the team than on the bench. He’s a game-changer when he’s on it.

 

[USREDEVIL]

Is there any reports that he picked up a knock? Or just Ole being careful? He was being get at for sure.

 

[Marwood]

Yeah, he can be good option, especially if he targets the FBs.

He was good defensively too, when it comes to defending set pieces.

I don't think be gets enough credit for how good he is in the air. Especially significant for us because as a team we're pretty rubbish in that regard. I think it's a massive asset for us at both ends of the pitch.

 

[Member 58925]

Why does the caf have to lead the internet in children arguing water isn't wet? Stop handing out free football tutoring trying to explain to these kids Pogba's value. It's not debatable.

 

[Borys]

You claim you want to see evidence to prove the point you argue against but you also do not provide any evidence to prove your own point.

You must've missed a couple of my posts.

You should compare PPG, GF, GA and every other metric with him on the pitch and without him. What you're comparing above is 3 players who have been simultaneously on the pitch for A LOT of minutes and is useless for this debate.

Okey

Data Source
I should probably stop because it's getting embarassing.

 

[Member 58925]

You must've missed a couple of my posts.


Okey

Data Source
I should probably stop because it's getting embarassing.

Per google:


con·text
/ˈkäntekst/
Learn to pronounce

noun

1. the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.

 

[Idxomer]

Borys misusing statistics is nothing new, I wouldn't bother with this debate.

 

[Borys]

Borys misusing statistics is nothing new, I wouldn't bother with this debate.

Sorry mate, I can't make it any simpler for you. If you don't get it by now, you won't get it.

I am open to some contr - evidence, but so far nobody provided any.

This thread and unconditional love for Pogba is a joke.

 

[Dve]

Is there any reports that he picked up a knock? Or just Ole being careful? He was being get at for sure.

Pogba was substituted to make sure we finished the game with 11 men. No knocks and an obvious starter on Sunday.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

We've got 3 choices.

1 We sell this summer for as much as we can get.

2. We offer him a contract close to 500k a week to try and keep him.

3. We allow him to leave for free in 2022.


Can anyone on here who defends this player to the hilt honestly say he deserves that bumper contact with us because that's what it's going to take. If you think he deserves to be our highest paid player of all time and earn close to 500k a week then my word our fanbase is more delusional than I feared.

Not only have his performances not warranted that kind of money but it might cause serious serious unrest among the other players.

Paul Pogba won't be remembered as a Utd great when he leaves. I'm sorry guys but he won't be. His legacy will be the talent that didn't live up to the hype and expectations.

 

[Posh Red]

Sorry mate, I can't make it any simpler for you. If you don't get it by now, you won't get it.

I am open to some contr - evidence, but so far nobody provided any.

This thread and unconditional love for Pogba is a joke.

What’s this all about? Unconditional love?

 

[Dve]

We've got 3 choices.

1 We sell this summer for as much as we can get.

2. We offer him a contract close to 500k a week to try and keep him.

3. We allow him to leave for free in 2022.


Can anyone on here who defends this player to the hilt honestly say he deserves that bumper contact with us because that's what it's going to take. If you think he deserves to be our highest paid player of all time and earn close to 500k a week then my word our fanbase is more delusional than I feared.

Not only have his performances not warranted that kind of money but it might cause serious serious unrest among the other players.

Paul Pogba won't be remembered as a Utd great when he leaves. I'm sorry guys but he won't be. His legacy will be the talent that didn't live up to the hype and expectations.

Defend him against what?

And that 500k contract is just a guess of yours. How much would Juventus offer him? Ronaldo is on insane wages, but if you take away him, the best paid player is de Ligt with 240k a week. Pogba is now on 290k a week at United. The best paid player at Real Madrid is Ramos with 312k a week, and I don´t think they in the current situation will offer Pogba 500k.

But of course, if Pogba were to sign a new 3 year contract he would expect a pay raise, but I think United could compete offering him 350, or max 400 to make him the best paid player in the squad.

Edit: And yes, I would be happy with him signing a new contract, even if they paid him 400k. Why would I not be? He´s an important player for us, and the only thing I care about, is whether he performs or not - which he does.

 

[VP89]

I think my tag should be passed on to @Nou_Camp99 now

 

[The Original]

We've got 3 choices.

1 We sell this summer for as much as we can get.

2. We offer him a contract close to 500k a week to try and keep him.

3. We allow him to leave for free in 2022.


Can anyone on here who defends this player to the hilt honestly say he deserves that bumper contact with us because that's what it's going to take. If you think he deserves to be our highest paid player of all time and earn close to 500k a week then my word our fanbase is more delusional than I feared.

Not only have his performances not warranted that kind of money but it might cause serious serious unrest among the other players.

Paul Pogba won't be remembered as a Utd great when he leaves. I'm sorry guys but he won't be. His legacy will be the talent that didn't live up to the hype and expectations.

Where is this 500k a week figure from?

 

[Ali Dia]

We've got 3 choices.

1 We sell this summer for as much as we can get.

2. We offer him a contract close to 500k a week to try and keep him.

3. We allow him to leave for free in 2022.


Can anyone on here who defends this player to the hilt honestly say he deserves that bumper contact with us because that's what it's going to take. If you think he deserves to be our highest paid player of all time and earn close to 500k a week then my word our fanbase is more delusional than I feared.

Not only have his performances not warranted that kind of money but it might cause serious serious unrest among the other players.

Paul Pogba won't be remembered as a Utd great when he leaves. I'm sorry guys but he won't be. His legacy will be the talent that didn't live up to the hype and expectations.

I felt the same way as you but I changed my mind for a few reasons. We’ve sold good players who have gone on to do well at their next clubs. This would surely end up being another one of those. If we sell will the glazers put the money back into the midfield? We still haven’t really replaced lukaku from a spending perspective. Fit Pogba is still a very handy creative tool. Remember when he was hitting double figures for goal involvements? He can still produce those kinds of moments if he has less defensive work. he’s currently thriving on the left. If Bruno gets injured Pogba is also a better replacement than Donny.

Is he worth the money. I don’t fully think so but I’d definitely rather he got it than the glazers kept it. Get him fit and focused he can still be a weapon for us. It’s his fitness I’d be most worried about if he wants to stay here. We could also still sell him in 2 years if he signs a new deal... seems like a win win to me.

 

[lost7]

Where is this 500k a week figure from?

There are two possibilities

1. He's got Raiola on speed dial and was told directly that Pogba won't sign for anything less than 500k a week
2. He came up with that number just to push his silly narrative

I wonder which option it is

 

[roonster09]

Where is this 500k a week figure from?

500K per week, 5 decent games a season, never good enough and somehow he thinks he is objective when rating Pogba

 

[Siezard]

Pogba was the captain! He inspired them to a 2-0 victory. Great assist King!

 

[Borys]

What’s this all about? Unconditional love?

Some people refuse to admit any evidence showing PP is not actually that influential for current United team.

It wouldn't be weird if that wasn't a player who said (either directly or through his agent) he wants to leave in the summer.
I don't dislike Pogba, I am just totally neutral towards him and I'm happy with his second part of the season, because we'll probably be able to get decent money for him. I am sure he'll have a great career, but he doesn't fit this place. I also think he was a good transfer in general, marketing wise I'm sure he was of a great value to us. No problem with the money we spent on him, but I really hope he doesn't get galactic payrise. This would be a mistake.

 

[The Original]

There are two possibilities

1. He's got Raiola on speed dial and was told directly that Pogba won't sign for anything less than 500k a week
2. He came up with that number just to push his silly narrative

I wonder which option it is

500K per week, 5 decent games a season, never good enough and somehow he thinks he is objective when rating Pogba

 

[P-Nut]

Some people refuse to admit any evidence showing PP is not actually that influential for current United team.

It wouldn't be weird if that wasn't a player who said (either directly or through his agent) he wants to leave in the summer.
I don't dislike Pogba, I am just totally neutral towards him and I'm happy with his second part of the season, because we'll probably be able to get decent money for him. I am sure he'll have a great career, but he doesn't fit this place. I also think he was a good transfer in general, marketing wise I'm sure he was of a great value to us. No problem with the money we spent on him, but I really hope he doesn't get galactic payrise. This would be a mistake.

So if you've provided evidence and people still aren't having it, why are you still harping on?

People like having Pogba in the side because he can do things with a football a lot of our team can't, he's a flair player that people enjoy watching, and when he's good he's extremely good. Sure he's been too inconsistent at times, but people are willing to accept that due to how high the highs can be.

Take your argument of Fred being better in stats earlier, he's another wildly inconsistent player with massive lows, but the highs are nowhere near as high, despite his consistency probably being slightly better.

And now just to prove how stupid stats can be and using the same site as you used for the Pogba comparison...

Shaw has 1.89 PPM with Telles having 2.4 despite every man and his dog knowing which is the better player.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

Keep up his good performance, win Europa, get second place. Best time for him to leave and end all the drama

 

[Posh Red]

Some people refuse to admit any evidence showing PP is not actually that influential for current United team.

It wouldn't be weird if that wasn't a player who said (either directly or through his agent) he wants to leave in the summer.
I don't dislike Pogba, I am just totally neutral towards him and I'm happy with his second part of the season, because we'll probably be able to get decent money for him. I am sure he'll have a great career, but he doesn't fit this place. I also think he was a good transfer in general, marketing wise I'm sure he was of a great value to us. No problem with the money we spent on him, but I really hope he doesn't get galactic payrise. This would be a mistake.

It just sounds to me like people are really enjoying him being in the side. I have no idea why that would be a surprise to anyone because he’s playing really well at the moment and he’s a great player to watch.