Exactly. He isn't a 10. Also the double pivot with him and Matic worked really great so far, why break it up?
6
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 37
- Goals
- 6
- Assists
- 16
- Yellow cards
- 5
- Red cards
- 1
- Status
Exactly. He isn't a 10. Also the double pivot with him and Matic worked really great so far, why break it up?
Had even more of a license to get forward with the extra CM and created less than he does in a two man CM, which is not uncommon for him.
I think he plays better in a two.
I think he plays better in a two.
Please, just stop shooting the damn ball.
Perhaps because Stoke are better than Swansea who didn't even have a proper striker against us.
He was unfortunate in a lot of cases today. Kept getting penalised for being stronger than his opponent. Happens a lot, and the whistle is blown because he's quite fairly out-muscled his opposite number. Was on the receiving end of a few elbows to the head and got nothing. Frustrating.
Mark Hughes got every decision he yelled for. That's probably why, the moaning shithawk.
Mark Hughes got every decision he yelled for. That's probably why, the moaning shithawk.
Yet they mostly bypassed the midfield so no need to play an additional defensive midfielder.
I thought he was one of our better players today but he does lose the ball very needlessly.
He had a mixed game today. He is strong and wins a lot of duels, but he often does a lot of stupid things.
I also think there's enough evidence from his time here that he's better in a deeper role.
"PoGbA wAs TeRrIbLe"
Nah he was utter shit today mate
Had a quiet game I thought, it's hard to argue thast on the ball he's better when starting deeper, I just think Jose worries about him defensively in a 2 away from home.
I don't think the assist was intentional, The record will say he got an assist while Mkhi didn't but Mkhi, intended to and played Lukaku through and is only denied the assist because Lukaku didn't score first time.
I think coz of his price tag and wanting to always have fun and crazy hairstyles makes opposition players and refs dislike him because he is winning in life with the career he has. He needs to keep things simple in life and when he has thats when things have really gone his way. Did think today he was a bit poor but I admire him always wanting to do something different and never giving up because he is deffinetly a born winner.
Bring back Pogba in a 2man midfield he is really good there.
Bring back Pogba in a 2man midfield he is really good there.
His positional sense is average top a top midfeilder with skills. He fails to do the basics of the game right.
Every game has 2 aspects of the game, on the ball and off the ball, and pogba is average off the ball Positioning and lethargic in pressing against attacking teams.
Even for today's first goal Pogba being a second line of defense needed to press closer to fletcher in order to make him pass the ball sideways and not forwards and his lack of effective pressing meant fletcher had time and space to pick his pass for the player in space and darmian was slower to close him down effectively.
Pogba fails to control the midfeild against attacking teams and fails to do the basics right many many times.
Every game has 2 aspects of the game, on the ball and off the ball, and pogba is average off the ball Positioning and lethargic in pressing against attacking teams.
Even for today's first goal Pogba being a second line of defense needed to press closer to fletcher in order to make him pass the ball sideways and not forwards and his lack of effective pressing meant fletcher had time and space to pick his pass for the player in space and darmian was slower to close him down effectively.
Pogba fails to control the midfeild against attacking teams and fails to do the basics right many many times.
And he's not wrong. Even in mid 3 today he was defensively vunrable.
Mourinho is too soft on pogba and his positional sense and off the ball work rate and defensive effectiveness.
The idea of pushing Pogba upfront by playing 4-3-3 is obviously the wrong one. He's not the kind of player who can play under the striker or too farther up front. Allegri tried to play him as a number 10 before and failed. Pogba is at his best as an all round CM who plays deep and uses his long balls while going forward only when an opportunity arises to shoot or scores like he used to do in the previous 3 games. He shouldn't be our playmaker, but should have a number 10 in front of him while he's assisting the attack with his contributions.
His combination with Matic and Mikhi was much, much better than what we saw today. All the 3 knew their role quite well, Matic securing the midfield, Pogba pushing the ball forward and Mikhi creating the play. With Herrera and Matic it looks like a mess. Herrera interfering with Matic roles and Pogba is main creator from the middle of the field while Mikhi is wasted on the right flank doing nothing and the result is what we saw : non-creative and predictable play style depending on long balls and our useless flanks, because Pogba was assigned to be our playmaker while he really isn't.
We should revert back to our system starting next match and never change it except against Top 6 teams. Pogba is combining better with Matic and Mikhi in the middle because everyone of them knows his role in it and doing it flawlessly.
His combination with Matic and Mikhi was much, much better than what we saw today. All the 3 knew their role quite well, Matic securing the midfield, Pogba pushing the ball forward and Mikhi creating the play. With Herrera and Matic it looks like a mess. Herrera interfering with Matic roles and Pogba is main creator from the middle of the field while Mikhi is wasted on the right flank doing nothing and the result is what we saw : non-creative and predictable play style depending on long balls and our useless flanks, because Pogba was assigned to be our playmaker while he really isn't.
We should revert back to our system starting next match and never change it except against Top 6 teams. Pogba is combining better with Matic and Mikhi in the middle because everyone of them knows his role in it and doing it flawlessly.
The teams we played before stoke never attacked and parked the bus , A 2 man pivot has to work defensively effectively against 3 man mid attacking teams but pogba's positional sense and defensive responsiblities is average to form a effective defensive block and matic is not 25 anymore as wwell like he was under first mourihno season. So its because of pogba's lack of defensive responsibilty and lack of basics a 2 man mid will get dominated against teams who play to attack and defend very resolutely without giving space to a no 10 because our transition form defense to attack is not quick enough, and nither of our wings are productive to that exntent to fashion out a chances without loosing the ball.
The days of cm has gone by, it worked before in football in a 442 under fergie but against big teams a cm with lack of defensive responsibilty wont work effectively. Short passing tiki taka will expose it eventually.
Also one has to see that for pogba to make an effective pass you need the effective movement up front which does not come many times.
Stoke were playing and attacking 352 today, We could have even lost the match if they dnt try to play for a draw in the end and dropped deeper.
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We had 2 defensive midfielders behind him today, Matic and Herrera. How can I criticize him for defensive duties in a setup like this ? The setup today was made for the sole reason to make Pogba roam freely upfront while he's covered by both Herrera and Matic. Also Stoke wasn't even targeting the midfield or tried to possess the ball anyway they were always aiming to make long balls on the flanks to expose our weaknesses there.
Pogba isn't great defensively but him ( and Mikhi ) did their defensive duties fine whenever we play in 2 men midfield. We're not supposed to get dominated in the midfield. It's the opposite. We'll be the one dominating the field most of times and attacking most of the game so talking about Pogba defensive abilities and us forced to play with 3 men midfield to unleash his best is pointless IMO and only applicable against big teams. We heard that a lot since he arrived and yet I'm struggling to remember a great attacking game he did while we played with 4-3-3, while he always does very well offensively in 2 men midfield when his site is to push the ball forward, assist in the build up of the attack and doing his long passes. When he's pushed forward more his decision making problems become more exposed because all the attacking build up lay on him.
The only we can play a proper 4-3-3 is if we have a tempo controlling midfield beside Matic and Pogba. Some one who keeps possession of the ball, controlling the tempo of the game and calming everyone beside him while we're attacking. Kroos is the perfect example for this. He controls the tempo of the game, keeps possession and helps in the attack by his throughs and shots. Herrera roles are very similar to Matic, interfering with him and moving in the positions he move in while leaving all the attacking buildup on Pogba alone who isn't capable of it.
4-3-3 isn't suited to our current side tbh. We don't have the controlling midfield, the fullbacks or the RW to apply it efficiently. The main advantage 4-2-3-1 has is all of our players know their roles in it and doing it exactly, resulting in overall better performance from most if not everyone.
I never felt we were vulnerable today bar the brainfarts of the 2 CB's at times, I think Pogba has struggled to affect games when playing in the midfield 3 recently, looking more at ease a bit deeper, we couldn't put a lot of rythym together today with him seeing so little of the ball.
Any defensive freedom is not complete freedom, it depends on which half of the pitch you are. If the opponent is in attacking mode in your half you dont get the defensive freedom , to not drop deep or to not press effectively and cut the passing lines so that the opponents is not allowed to pass the ball forward. It results in the attacking team make forward pass and reach your final third.
You only get defensive freedom in the opponents half when you are on the attack and have just lost the ball , that you dont have to track back to control the counter attack for the fear of getting exposed as there are 2 men behind to control the counter attack or delay to opponents the direct route to goal, and if the players in behind win the ball they can launch a quick direct pass to the free cm and he can recive a quick pass in space which opens up because the opponents were on the counter and just lost the ball, and build on the attack in final third temporarily transiting to a 4231 with the link between attack and midfeild as the opponents are slower in transition from attack to defense. This is the main concept here.
You have to defend as a 433 off the ball in your own half at all times, with each Midfeilder doing his job as the second line of defense ,because you are not pressing the opponents high in their own half who build out from the back. You only get defensive freedom in opponents half and its the remaining 2 players role to press and control.
I dont know how you reached that conclusion because until now we never faced any team who would attack with impunity and build from the back like stoke did. Its not the opposite. I dont think matic and herrera can afford to press that high proactively against teams who build from the back, to disrupt their midfeild play as our attackers dont press in the oppnents half that aggressively( like we did against chelsea at home last season to deny them having the high line attacking mode) so they will get exposed against a mid 3 as they have a man advantage with width with wingbacks or over lapping full backs.
Until now the teams never attacked us like stoke did, and even in mid 3 pogba's lack of agressive pressing and positional dicipline led to that fletcher pass forward which eventually resulted in a goal from mistakes from bailly and darmian too. When the second line of defense fails the last line of defense has to stop the threat and we dint.
Stoke away is not a easy game. Any result was possible here including a loss.
We scored late goals against west ham swansea and leicester in a mid 3 only and stuggled to break down all of them until the game opened up with a goal in a mid 2 also. Pogba's goal against west ham and swansea came in mid 3. When stoke were settling for a draw after their equalizer and dropped deep and we switched to a 4231 we could not fashion out a decent chance and we never could go in a full attacking mode. lukaku was a difficult chance too. so we dint find much penetration in a 4231 with stoke gong on defensive.
Matic is that midfeild controller for us when we are on the offensive with the ball and that player who breaks up the play proactively unlike a old carrick who does break up play but re actively, Now its pogba's job to be that second one and define that role he needs to be playing when the going gets tough. If pogba is not capable of the only role he has to do in the team than what does he brings in as a midfeider? Herrera was lacking that energy and tenacity today but largely he does his job of breaking up the play and passing well he is is on the ball although he needs to improve on the ball as well. But he rarely loose the ball and has that intelligence to make that final pass too. Pogba is supposed to be a play maker in a 433 if he is not capable of it than what did we pay 89 m for?
Yeah i agree we lack creativity on the RW because Mkh sruggles as a winger. But we have brought in as a winger to play on the right primirarily as we let go sadio mane for him, which was a incredibly dumb decision So he has to work harder a lot to fit in that role now. He can ocassionaly drift in as a cam to build up the counter.
The fact that we are not comfortable against top 6 in a 4231 is only the testament that the 2 man pivot midfeild will fail against top quality Posession based attacking sides which we will find in ucl too and against top 6 who largely play a wing back system themselves , so we will have to play in a mid 3 a lot, and then Mkh or lingard has to slot in there as rw because of mata's inability to take the ball from defense to attack. And thus Pogba needs to improve both on and off the ball because he is the one who constantly falls short when the going gets tough, not herrera and not matic.
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You defend as a team and attack as a team. Pogba was the second line of defense and failed to press fletcher for that pass to deny him a forward pass. Cb's are a 3rd line of defense who have to reactively defend when 2nd line of defense fails.
He didn't have a good game at all. With two midfielders to cover for him, I thought he pushed forward too much and we missed his linkup play. His heading has become better. Got two assists which should have actually been goals from corners. I want him back in a 2-man midfield the next game.
Stick him in midfield and leave him there. This whole thinking he's going to develop into some Zidanesque player thing just isn't working. I say flood him with Viera videos and ask him to that instead.
Sorry had to reply in bold as I'm using a tab!et and sectioning the post will be a real pain. If you find any wrong word it's the stupid auto-correction.
Bit worrying that Stoke identified him as a weakness prior to the game.
http://www.football365.com/news/adam-stoke-identified-pogba-as-man-uniteds-weakness
http://www.football365.com/news/adam-stoke-identified-pogba-as-man-uniteds-weakness
Not even sure what Adam is saying as Herrera played in midfield 3 so Pogba roaming around doesn't mean Matic is isolated.
I really don't see Pogba as an attacking player. I think he is far better in the Pirlo/Scholes/Alonso role receiving the ball deep ans knocking it around.
That worked brilliantly for 3 games so not sure why Jose changed it to bring Ander in, who once again showed he is pretty limited with the ball
That worked brilliantly for 3 games so not sure why Jose changed it to bring Ander in, who once again showed he is pretty limited with the ball
We never looked in danger of losing to Stoke at any point. Stoke were extremely lucky with both their goals. If it wasn't for our major unforced defensive eras they'd never have scored. I don't buy this argument of trying to paint Pogba as having had a bad game, as Stoke having succesfully identified him as some sort of weakness, nor Stoke as having been 'dangerous' or blaming anyone bar Bailly and Darmian for the first goal we let in. Bar our two brain farts it would have been a comfortable two nil win vs sttuborn opponents
If Pogba was poor, Matic and Herrera were awful. But let's blame Pogba like always.
Agree. He does struggle defensively. Granted he was a forward yesterday, but he still struggled to press players and win tackles. For all his size and strength, his ability to win tackles and press players is quite poor. Off the ball movement also needs to be improved. He is still, very much a work in progress.
Thought he did fine, not one of his better performances, but was good. Herrera and Matic were below par. The defensive errors cost us all 3 points. If it wasn't for the mistakes at the back, I couldn't see Stoke scoring.
Frankly I was disappointed with the way our CMs were set up. Pogba would have been much better utilised playing deeper alongside Matic while Herrera is pushed up to act in a Park role of maniacally pressing their midfield and defense. We spent large parts of the game sending the ball aimlessly between midfield and defence when we could have launched attacks after attacks down the middle or flanks with long balls from deep and win the 2nd balls high up the pitch.
It was Fergie's recipe for teams like Stoke. Get the ball to your attackers as quickly and as often as possible. We had 2 great runners on the pitch but couldn't send them the ball to run into anywhere near enough. None of our midfield looked good because they spent large parts of the game scrapping or faffing about with the defense.
It was Fergie's recipe for teams like Stoke. Get the ball to your attackers as quickly and as often as possible. We had 2 great runners on the pitch but couldn't send them the ball to run into anywhere near enough. None of our midfield looked good because they spent large parts of the game scrapping or faffing about with the defense.
He was shite !
No urgency whatsoever. Very slow in transitions, keeps the ball far too long.
Needs to cut this BS
He wasn't shite but he really needs to get a grip on the situations when it's best for him to carry the ball forward or when it's the best to play and fast and easy pass to get the ball moving.
I know how it works mate but there were errors from 3 players on the first goal, it happens, but it's becoming more apparent that playing him a 3 isn't helping, he loses his focus when he has that extra bit of freedom.
As the only dangerous attacking mid in the team, the defensive focus of the opposition midfield is centred on Pogba. That's why I wanted Naby Keita or Lemar, so that Pogba gets a chop out. We won't get the best out of him while he's our only dangerous attacking mid and the opposition just concentrates on shutting him down. In the first 3 games Mkhitaryan played as central attacking mid, and Pogba got some degree of freedom to attack. This time Mkhitaryan plays right forward and Pogba is isolated in the advanced midfield position. Pogba could be a decent "10" in a team full of great players, but it's a huge ask in this team.
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