[Cliche Guevara]

There are a lot of sticks Pogba can be beaten with for his lack of world class output, the defensive side of his game is not one of them. We didn't buy a player under false advertising - he has always been the same, so if we're trying to change that, then we are at fault, not the player.

Do you not think he can learn though? Improve?

It’s not like he’s being asked to do anything complicated, just know which position to take up behind the ball when we’re defending. I mean I know and I’m not a World Class footballer.

I found Mata’s performance very interesting. A guy Jose has already discarded due to not being effective enough defensively. A player most people assumed would be immediately out the door when Jose arrived.

I thought he was terrific, at times playing as an auxiliary right-back and making tackles and tracking runners in his own box. Mata! It didn’t seem to destroy his attacking game either.

Just a thought.

 

[Dec9003]

This is just circular. You have your opinion of the player, you literally don't care what the 'facts' say as they disprove the notion of laziness - he covers ample distance per game - and someone who is in perpetual motion is going to wrack up km per game.

What you don't like is that an offensive midfielder doesn't know the tenets of being another type of midfielder, which, as I say, makes as much sense as lambasting a Carrick or Matic for their, in those terms, inadequate contributions to the attack.

That you blame Pogba for not being another type of midfielder is just absurd.

but Pogba has an inadequate contribution to attack as well, so as I said he's a defender that can neither defend or attack, so why pick him?
I blame Pogba for not being a good midfielder, because he isn't. If I'm being absurd for thinking that then fair enough, but he's simply not that good.

 

[Dec9003]

In the CL this season, Pogba averages 10.75 Km per 90 mins. This figure is lower than that of Matic and McTominay who both average 11.5 km. Herrera 11.6 km. However, Pogba runs further than most of the team. Lingard 12.1 km. Typically full-backs and attackers (Martial, Lukaku) are around 9 km. Of course, the number of high intensity sprints is likely to be more important than the total distance covered.

Stats come from http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2018/statistics/round=2000881/players/index.html

So these running stats that clearly show that I'm wrong, actually show that Pogba runs less than our other midfielders, well that's me told I suppose.

 

[Trigg]

Pires and Pallister have both labelled him as lazy off the ball. It's clear to see anyway to anyone who watches us play.

Ok. Well then that’s settled then I guess... Pires and Pallister say it so it’s fact.

He’s not lazy, watching him would tell you that. He not as disciplined defensively as some others in our team though, but then others in our team don’t make the same contribution as Pogba going forward.

 

[Jeppers7]

Pires and Pallister have both labelled him as lazy off the ball. It's clear to see anyway to anyone who watches us play.

As a season ticket holder, from the ground you can see off the Ball movement. At no point whilst he's been back has Pogba been dug out by the crowd for being lazy. Lukaku is the only one who has come accord as lazy without the ball at times. The stats don't back up that Pogba is lazy either. He's just had a period of bad form. In my opinion his role has been changed slightly since Alexis has come in and he's not happy. But he's not lazy.

Can you name five united players who have had better seasons for us this season ?

 

[LuisNaniencia]

I believe Pogba could have played yesterday but Mourinho wanted to play more defensively and thus they agreed for him to sit out and say he was injured to avoid the media backlash.

 

[Trigg]

So these running stats that clearly show that I'm wrong, actually show that Pogba runs less than our other midfielders, well that's me told I suppose.

Glad we cleared that up. You can stop going round brandishing opinions as facts now.

 

[westmeath]

I believe Pogba could have played yesterday but Mourinho wanted to play more defensively and thus they agreed for him to sit out and say he was injured to avoid the media backlash.

I'm no big fan of Pogba but this is BS. If Mourinho wants to drop a player, he will simply drop him. There's no way he invents an injury and no way Pogba plays along with it.

On the "lazy" comments above, this is "lazy" analysis. He gets about the pitch and puts in a shift but he lacks positional awareness and basic discipline to be a central midfield player. Left of a three gives him a more clearly defined vertical defensive role and gives him the opportunity to be an attacking threat.

 

[shanem2074]

I'm no big fan of Pogba but this is BS. If Mourinho wants to drop a player, he will simply drop him. There's no way he invents an injury and no way Pogba plays along with it.

On the "lazy" comments above, this is "lazy" analysis. He gets about the pitch and puts in a shift but he lacks positional awareness and basic discipline to be a central midfield player. Left of a three gives him a more clearly defined vertical defensive role and gives him the opportunity to be an attacking threat.

He definitely had a knock, there is no need for Jose to play those games.

I'll add, that Pogba is clearly still finding his feet at United but an unbelievable talent and looks eager to learn. He can learn any of the traits required to be a top midfield player. He is not there yet but he will get there. Having Matic is a huge plus. If we had a Pirlo (in his prime) in there to complete the three we would see Pogba unleashed but the team has been changing a lot and so his flow has been interrupted. Given time and some smart additions, he will be huge. A little patience is all we need.

 

[Fortitude]

Do you not think he can learn though? Improve?

It’s not like he’s being asked to do anything complicated, just know which position to take up behind the ball when we’re defending. I mean I know and I’m not a World Class footballer.

I found Mata’s performance very interesting. A guy Jose has already discarded due to not being effective enough defensively. A player most people assumed would be immediately out the door when Jose arrived.

I thought he was terrific, at times playing as an auxiliary right-back and making tackles and tracking runners in his own box. Mata! It didn’t seem to destroy his attacking game either.

Just a thought.

I really couldn't say whether he can improve as it's one thing to do a pseudo job of something as opposed to one where you have actual duties and responsibilities that if you fail in, you cost your team goals. Compare it Lukaku defending set pieces - sure, he can do the job sort of, but when he fails at it, should he be slaughtered, or should we acknowledge that a lot of forwards simply don't have that switch permanently on like defensive-minded players do?

Regarding Mata, he tracks runs and does some stuff, but he switches off, just like Pogba, the difference is, his job brief isn't really to run so deep into his own half that he is culpable if a goal is scored whereas Pogba has to track deep runners who are direct goal threats and when he switches off, our whole defensive structure is compromised by a free runner right at the heart of midfield. I thought he [Mata] did a much better job than he usually does on Sunday, like he was completely focused on the job he'd been given probably aware he does it or gets hooked, but it's not a constant state of being for him, which is understandable.

I don't think it's dissimilar to Pogba doing a good job of playing deeper once in a while and then duping people into thinking he can always do that when it's more an anomaly than a normal state of being for him. Whenever he's played deeper I expect at least a couple of complete lapses in concentration just as you would get with the majority of offensive minded players being played deep.

One last thing I'd add is that Pogba does track basic runs, it's when there's a complex build-up with multiple off the ball runners, sometimes switching positions, that he looks completely lost. That's when you get those confused 'half-arsed' runs that people lambast him for, too. I don't know how you make a player who doesn't see those runs suddenly aware enough to be relied upon. For me, you take that kind of responsibility off him and play him ahead of others that excel at that kind of stuff.

 

[LuisNaniencia]

I'm no big fan of Pogba but this is BS. If Mourinho wants to drop a player, he will simply drop him. There's no way he invents an injury and no way Pogba plays along with it.

On the "lazy" comments above, this is "lazy" analysis. He gets about the pitch and puts in a shift but he lacks positional awareness and basic discipline to be a central midfield player. Left of a three gives him a more clearly defined vertical defensive role and gives him the opportunity to be an attacking threat.

He definitely had a knock, there is no need for Jose to play those games.

I'll add, that Pogba is clearly still finding his feet at United but an unbelievable talent and looks eager to learn. He can learn any of the traits required to be a top midfield player. He is not there yet but he will get there. Having Matic is a huge plus. If we had a Pirlo (in his prime) in there to complete the three we would see Pogba unleashed but the team has been changing a lot and so his flow has been interrupted. Given time and some smart additions, he will be huge. A little patience is all we need.

Could be BS, it's just a theory. And I wouldn't call it "playing games" anyway, more clever management.

I assume you both saw the clip of Pogba playing football at his house after the game? Do you not think Mourinho would go ape seeing that if Pogba had been unfit to play?

If he plays against Sevilla then the injury can't have been that bad.

 

[Murray3007]

Thought the 1st part of the season he was superb playing in a 2, struggled since he came back with the odd good performance like Everton away. not sure whats really changed for him if its been an attitude problem or if hes now decided he's not happy having to put in more defensive work or if its Sanchez coming in, but better get his finger out or hes going to be stuck out the team.

 

[SirAF]

He wasn't a part of open training today.

That said, that doesn't mean he's out of tomorrow's match - he could be training alternatively or simply joining the training when the open session is over.

 

[Dec9003]

Can you name five united players who have had better seasons for us this season ?

I'll give it a go
In my humble opinion the players who've had a better season for United are as follows:
De Gea, Valencia, Jones, Matic, McTominay, Lingard, Martial, Lukaku.
There's eight and other ones are arguable but perhaps less fair, like Young and Mata who I think overall have done well but Pogba's early season form puts him ahead of them.
By the end of the season there's a good chance Rashford, Sanchez and perhaps Bailly can add their names to that list too.

 

[P-Nut]

I'll give it a go
In my humble opinion the players who've had a better season for United are as follows:
De Gea, Valencia, Jones, Matic, McTominay, Lingard, Martial, Lukaku.
There's eight and other ones are arguable but perhaps less fair, like Young and Mata who I think overall have done well but Pogba's early season form puts him ahead of them.
By the end of the season there's a good chance Rashford, Sanchez and perhaps Bailly can add their names to that list too.

McTominay has not had a better season than Pogba. You're forgetting most of our best performances at the start of the season where McTominay didn't feature at all and Pogba was key to us playing well.

I actually think you could make the list of 5, but to put McTominay in their is definitely underrating Pogba's season

 

[Rashford2good]

Do we think Paul and jose have fell out? It's all a bit strange don't you think?

 

[Dec9003]

McTominay has not had a better season than Pogba. You're forgetting most of our best performances at the start of the season where McTominay didn't feature at all and Pogba was key to us playing well.

I actually think you could make the list of 5, but to put McTominay in their is definitely underrating Pogba's season

I actually mentioned Pogba's early season form in my post so I definitely didn't forget it. I just think compared to expectations McTominay has performed really well and is improving game by game, whereas I think Pogba is going backwards.

 

[Trigg]

Could be BS, it's just a theory. And I wouldn't call it "playing games" anyway, more clever management.

I assume you both saw the clip of Pogba playing football at his house after the game? Do you not think Mourinho would go ape seeing that if Pogba had been unfit to play?

If he plays against Sevilla then the injury can't have been that bad.

I suspect it wasn't, but Sevilla is the more important game so making sure he has a chance to play in that one seems like the most sensible thing to do.

26 Appearances
3 Goals
14 Assists

Those are this seasons stats from above. I think some people are criminally under rating his contribution to the team.

 

[LordSpud]

According to Kris Voakes from Goal he wasn't at training today. Martial was though.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

Seen some pics of the training session on Instagram and didnt see Paul. Martial, aa above, is back.

 

[LuisNaniencia]

Do we think Paul and jose have fell out? It's all a bit strange don't you think?

No, judging by the handshake after Jose's interview.

 

[Stacks]

I suspect it wasn't, but Sevilla is the more important game so making sure he has a chance to play in that one seems like the most sensible thing to do.

26 Appearances
3 Goals
14 Assists

Those are this seasons stats from above. I think some people are criminally under rating his contribution to the team.

Nearly, you've added 4 assists according to various other data sites

 

[Canagel]

According to Mourinho he trained after the media left so there's still a chance he'll be involved tomorrow. Probably from the bench.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Could be BS, it's just a theory. And I wouldn't call it "playing games" anyway, more clever management.

I assume you both saw the clip of Pogba playing football at his house after the game? Do you not think Mourinho would go ape seeing that if Pogba had been unfit to play?

If he plays against Sevilla then the injury can't have been that bad.

Don't you remember the video of Pogba dancing and hopping around like a nutter after his hamstring injury? He still didn't play for like 4-5 weeks after that.

Footballers are much more cautious with injuries than the average joe down the park.

 

[Trigg]

Nearly, you've added 4 assists according to various other data sites

I've not added, have a word with whoever does the stats for RedCafe :P

 

[el3mel]

Some of these assists in this thread need to be removed yeah.

I think Zlatan goal vs Bristol and Matic goal vs Palace were counted as assists as well, while they're not.

He has 9 assists in the league and 1 in CL as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Jeppers7]

I'll give it a go
In my humble opinion the players who've had a better season for United are as follows:
De Gea, Valencia, Jones, Matic, McTominay, Lingard, Martial, Lukaku.
There's eight and other ones are arguable but perhaps less fair, like Young and Mata who I think overall have done well but Pogba's early season form puts him ahead of them.
By the end of the season there's a good chance Rashford, Sanchez and perhaps Bailly can add their names to that list too.

That is indeed a humble opinion. I said season, not month.

 

[Dec9003]

That is indeed a humble opinion. I said season, not month.

Since it's an opinion you can't say it's wrong though, you can offer your opinion if you want to have a real discussion though.

 

[Devil may care]

I'm sick of his love of dancing, fashion and wacky haircuts being used to make the case that he's not a good professional and not fully dedicated to his game, Becks did 2 of the 3 things and was never anything but a top pro, it's bullshit. He has things to work on no doubt, and he needs to rediscover some form, but I don't think there is any case to be made that he's not all in on his football.

At any rate I don't think he'll play tomorrow, my guess is he'll start against Brighton on Saturday though.

 

[Mr PG]

We wouldn’t be top 4 without the Pog this season so it disappoints me to read all these snipe comments etc

 

[haram]

I think the assists count pre season as well?

 

[kundalini]

We wouldn’t be top 4 without the Pog this season so it disappoints me to read all these snipe comments etc

We've dropped 11 points in the 11 PL games Pogba missed. This set of matches included 5 games against top 6 sides, including two away.

We've dropped 14 points in the 18 PL games he started. This set of matches included 3 games against top 6 sides, including two away.

One game he came on as a sub. We won. It was 1-0 when he got on the pitch. 2-0 final score.

Factoring in fixture difficulty, the difference between with Pogba, and without him, isn't that great. Liverpool have 60 points from 30 games. Spurs 61 from 30 games.

In other competitions, we have so far managed to win every game that Pogba missed including away games at CSKA Moscow, Benfica, Swansea (League Cup), Huddersfield (FA Cup).

Pogba is almost certainly one of our best players but this season at least, his impact on results up until now, hasn't been that significant.

 

[Harry190]

I'm sick of his love of dancing, fashion and wacky haircuts being used to make the case that he's not a good professional and not fully dedicated to his game, Becks did 2 of the 3 things and was never anything but a top pro, it's bullshit. He has things to work on no doubt, and he needs to rediscover some form, but I don't think there is any case to be made that he's not all in on his football.

At any rate I don't think he'll play tomorrow, my guess is he'll start against Brighton on Saturday though.

There is a huge difference between Beckham's work rate and Pogba's. Nevermind that, even in terms of overall quality and impact, Beckham is far ahead.

Talent wise, it's a no-contest, but potential can be wasted.

 

[bosnian_red]

We've dropped 11 points in the 11 PL games Pogba missed. This set of matches included 5 games against top 6 sides, including two away.

We've dropped 14 points in the 18 PL games he started. This set of matches included 3 games against top 6 sides, including two away.

One game he came on as a sub. We won. It was 1-0 when he got on the pitch. 2-0 final score.

Factoring in fixture difficulty, the difference between with Pogba, and without him, isn't that great. Liverpool have 60 points from 30 games. Spurs 61 from 30 games.

In other competitions, we have so far managed to win every game that Pogba missed including away games at CSKA Moscow, Benfica, Swansea (League Cup), Huddersfield (FA Cup).

Pogba is almost certainly one of our best players but this season at least, his impact on results up until now, hasn't been that significant.

Yeah. No doubting his quality but his impact has been minimal and right now, he feels somewhat irrelevant to our plans and he needs to find a way to force his way in and make a role for himself where he isn't a liability but the balance is still good. When he plays, he does alright, but nothing special. When he's not there, it's not too noticeable. That should be an issue from his perspective.

 

[kundalini]

Pogba's expected goals and expected assists stats are interesting:

This season PL only:

Goals scored 3 Expected Goals from those shot locations, type of pass etc 5.75

Assists 9. Expected Assists given location of shot, type of pass etc 2.93 so more than a touch of - I make a simple pass to you on the half-way line, you hit a wonder shot from 30 yards that flies in the top corner, for which I get an assist.

Last Season his finishing was poor but the chances he was creating weren't being stuck in the net to the extent you would expect.

Goals scored 5. Expected Goals 6.5

Assists 4. Expected Assists 5.59

His shot locations are horrible, with the exception of shots/headers from corners. He scored 5 goals from shots taken outside the box for Juventus in Serie A in 2014/5. Since then he has scored 4 from outside the box in 3 seasons in PL/Serie A. For United one goal in the PL from outside the box last season and so far one this season in the PL.

https://understat.com/player/1740

If he doesn't want to play centre midfield, then I wonder if he might be worth a try on the right rather than the left as Mata's numbers don't look great to me.

I'd prefer it if he played centre midfield and accepted the need to do the basics.

 

[ice-bionic red]

This “gash” keeping him out of tonight! What a joke

 

[SATA]

He's probably not fully fit. Coming on off the bench will give the team a real boost if we need a goal or something, or when the crowd needs a lift

 

[OneUnited24]

Was so poor when he came on today. Absolutely shocking

 

[Raw]

He's not worth the trouble to be honest. He's had far too many of these absolutely shocking performances.

Why waste millions buying the "perfect" set up for him to flourish? You do that with players like Messi. Not Pogba.

 

[izec]

He was terrible, so many terrible passes and he cant be arsed to do consistent defending and tracking back.