summer will be vital. either Jose brings in the right CM to play alongside Pogba and Matic or not, that is going to determine our season.
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Give the job to Rooney!
I don't follow. While there are b2b midfielders who are more attacking oriented, they are required to do defensive work. How being b2b midfielder goes without defensive duty makes sense, let alone a "classic"?
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I really hope this guy can kick on and show the sort of consistency he had at Juve as we’d have a real player on our hands. I can’t lie and pretend he’s met my - admittedly high - expectations during his short time with us.
Pogba is like that present you so desperately wanted on Christmas. All nicely wrapped up and sitting by the tree with your name on it. You frantically take the wrapping and packaging off only to see on the back that it requires batteries and there are none included.
My point being it’s quite obvious now that Pogba can’t play in a two man midfield especially against the big boys which tbh for £89m, I ruddy well expected him to. Now apparently we have to buy another midfielder to get him to successfully click.
Hell, even McTominay - a guy who was playing centre forward a few years ago - can play with Matic in CM, so why can’t one of the world’s most expensive players do it? I am one of his biggest critics but only cos he’s meant to be our best player and he’s only shown that in glimpses.
Pogba is like that present you so desperately wanted on Christmas. All nicely wrapped up and sitting by the tree with your name on it. You frantically take the wrapping and packaging off only to see on the back that it requires batteries and there are none included.
My point being it’s quite obvious now that Pogba can’t play in a two man midfield especially against the big boys which tbh for £89m, I ruddy well expected him to. Now apparently we have to buy another midfielder to get him to successfully click.
Hell, even McTominay - a guy who was playing centre forward a few years ago - can play with Matic in CM, so why can’t one of the world’s most expensive players do it? I am one of his biggest critics but only cos he’s meant to be our best player and he’s only shown that in glimpses.
My God, that is an amazing analogy!
Everything else you're saying is fine but I can't get behind this train of thought. There is no team in the world (without some unique exception i.e elite organisation and tactics) that plays 2 in the middle against the top teams and comes off looking good with it :/
In fact most teams play 3 midfielders as a regular formation/personnel and yet somehow, we're supposed to field 4 attackers ahead of Pogba and expect him to perform. For sure he deserves criticism in that he doesn't even do his part consistently or good enough but it's just silly at Utd we don't play 3. It's suicidal and we are much poorer for it.
Look at Barca today against Valencia with Rakitic, Busquests, Iniesta and Gomes on the pitch.
I would love to have an insight into what role Fergie thought Pogba could excel at. He obviously lacks the the discipline to fit the traditional midfield role but Alex built successful teams which relied upon maverick characters. I feel that Pogba can provide a spark but relies on the the hard work of others to shine. Whereas the Sanchez of this world work to create their own magic
18 months down the line, it’s obvious Mourinho wants to play 4-2-3-1; also 18 months down the line, it’s obvious Pogba isn’t very good in a 4-2-3-1.
With Mourinho at United for at another two years (at least) a decision should be made on Pogba’s future.He’s arguably the most talented player in the squad, but that counts for little if he can’t implement it during the 90 minutes.
Is it logical to perpetuate Pogba’s position-induced underperforming, or accept him and Jose aren’t compatible, and recycle him into a couple of more suitable, tactically responsible midfielders who can actually get a grip of a game against decent opposition, a right winger and another 10?
In an ideal world, 4-3-3 will become the default system and Pogba would flourish as the most advanced of the three, but there’s nothing to suggest that will be the case....
For example....
Kroos-Matic
Mahrez-Sanchez-Martial
....looks far more comprehensive and balanced than the current midfield.
Mourinho wants a double pivot to provide the platform for the attacking quartet to perform upon, and Pogba is too erratic to fill that role responsibly.
With Mourinho at United for at another two years (at least) a decision should be made on Pogba’s future.He’s arguably the most talented player in the squad, but that counts for little if he can’t implement it during the 90 minutes.
Is it logical to perpetuate Pogba’s position-induced underperforming, or accept him and Jose aren’t compatible, and recycle him into a couple of more suitable, tactically responsible midfielders who can actually get a grip of a game against decent opposition, a right winger and another 10?
In an ideal world, 4-3-3 will become the default system and Pogba would flourish as the most advanced of the three, but there’s nothing to suggest that will be the case....
For example....
Kroos-Matic
Mahrez-Sanchez-Martial
....looks far more comprehensive and balanced than the current midfield.
Mourinho wants a double pivot to provide the platform for the attacking quartet to perform upon, and Pogba is too erratic to fill that role responsibly.
I completely agree with the idea of needing 3 in the midfield for the big games to allow Pogba freedom.
What i find bemusing is the claim that he can't play in a 2 as if its black and white, he clearly can and he has a responsibility to grow as a footballer to develop the positional sense to allow him to do so.
It's a bit of a let off to avoid criticising him which is odd as he clearly hasn't finished his developmnt yet.
What i find bemusing is the claim that he can't play in a 2 as if its black and white, he clearly can and he has a responsibility to grow as a footballer to develop the positional sense to allow him to do so.
It's a bit of a let off to avoid criticising him which is odd as he clearly hasn't finished his developmnt yet.
I disagree in terms of pure skill. I think Pogba can play that role just as well as Kroos, if not better. He's just too motivated to attack so it leaves Matic exposed. If he really wants to play that role, he has all the tools to be a lot better than Kroos. It's all in the head for me.
Also, time will change Pogba, just like it changed Kroos. If you remember, he wasn't a defensive pivot back in Germany.
Rooney doesn't worry about defending. His mindset is full blown attack. A classic predator and he expects Pogba to be like this as well.
Then Rooney ain't having the balance mind of a coach then. In football yo need to defend too. SAF's teams ain't just all about attacking despite he is attack minded. Even so called dominant team like Barcelona did defense work on mechanism of recycling possession. Unless Rooney absorbs all LVG teaching about recycling possession (which is hard to grasp with plenty of component in its philosophy being outdated), then add his own touch, which again requires plenty brain power, I doubt he can build a successful style that neglects traditional defending.
Problem with Pogba is his application of defensive work is very immature, not that he doesn't have the tool to do it at all. He can be a b2b midfielder, but he needs improvement. The notion of b2b is being an influence on both end of the pitch. How can classic b2b midfielder be described with no defensive duty, I don't follow.
Sounds as though Rooney hasn't paid enough attention to the fact there are two b's to think about in b2b.
Plus his insistence that he could develop into a top central midfielder - when it was glaringly obvious he didn't have the tools for that position - makes it even harder to take his opinion seriously on this issue.
There's been a lot of debate recently about Pogba's best position but for me the most important thing is that he has license to join the attack. When he gets the ball from deep and runs at the heart of teams he is unstoppable. It doesn't have to be on the left hand side of a 3 man midfield like people say. He must have freedom to roam and given a free role he can cause damage to teams. Pogba should be given a free role in attack and should play on the left wing in a 4-4-2. Or on the left side of a 4-3-1-2 formation. Play Sanchez and Lukaku/ Martial upfront with Lingard behind and a 3 man midfield of Matic, McTominay and Pogba. It would look like this:
Matic
McTominay Pogba
Lingard
Lukaku Sanchez
That team has the perfect balance and Pogba is freed up from defensive duties as well.
Another option is this:
New CM Matic New DM Pogba
Lukaku Sanchez
We'd need 2 midfielders in the summer for this system but it also gets the best out of Pogba. Barcelona use it as well. They set up like this:
Paulinho Busquets Rakitic Iniesta
Messi Suarez
If we want to play the 4-3-1-2 or 4-4-2 formation we need upgrades in the full back areas because they're the ones who will provide the width. There aren't any wingers so the fullback areas are crucial to make these systems work. My preferred option for LB would be Sandro. Get Sandro and 2 midfielders (one DM and one CM) and we're looking a serious team next season. Jose already said we aren't looking for attackers so let's spend big on the fullback areas and midfield. If possible a commanding ball playing CB too would be very good.
Matic
McTominay Pogba
Lingard
Lukaku Sanchez
That team has the perfect balance and Pogba is freed up from defensive duties as well.
Another option is this:
New CM Matic New DM Pogba
Lukaku Sanchez
We'd need 2 midfielders in the summer for this system but it also gets the best out of Pogba. Barcelona use it as well. They set up like this:
Paulinho Busquets Rakitic Iniesta
Messi Suarez
Pogba needs to get the best out of Pogba.
There. It’s done.
There. It’s done.
I think in Rooney’s head, a box to box midfielder means freedom to roam the length of the pitch without responsibility.
Exactly. He's describing the classic "box to half way line" midfielder. Rooney being clueless tactically? Who'd have thought it?
Rooneys head. Probably a clue in that with regards to how serious one should take his analysis
I'm pretty sure Rooney understands football much better than you or anyone else on this forum, who decides our all-time top goalscorer deserves petty criticism and insults on a daily basis. Maybe Pogba needs more protection and won't be as good as he can otherwise, only time will tell but it seems Mourinho will still be playing a midfield 2 in most games for the rest of the season.
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Exactly. Bash Rooney for being thick then bash him for not giving the perfect explanation of box to box in response to a fecking twitter question on live TV.
I think everyone knew what Rooney meant any way. The calls for Pogba to play box to box, in a three have been there since he joined.
Theres plenty to bash Rooney for but this wasn't it.
The problem with the statement is that it's a paradox. People call for Pogba to play a free roaming role in 3 men midfield without defensive duties. Other want him to be b2b. Mixing those into one makes a nonsense of both ideas.
People who talking about Rooney's IQ is OTT, but defending his paradox of opinion is being precious. He made mistake on his debut as pundit, not big deal. Pointed it out and move on. It's better than lapping it up and he being full of himself and becoming shitehouse of pundit like the others.
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Perhaps Pogba could fulfill that role that Jose in his Chelsea days mistakenly trusted Oscar with, #10 with high workrate and some defensive duties while the team are defending.
I disagree. Just because someone is a great player doesn't make them better equipped to analyse the game of football better. FWIW I was joking about Wayne as we don't know enough about him as a pundit to know whether he's as good an analyst as he was a footballer. I sincerely hope he is and he's always struck me as a guy whose a lot smarter than people give him credit for.
There's nothing called box to box with free defensive duties. It's called"box to box", a player that cover for both boxes in both attack and defense and keep supporting the team on both sides of the pitch.
Rooney wanted to call him an attacking player but failed to choose the correct term. There's no guarantee that a top player will become a great pundit or manager and we all know that and saw it ourselves.
Rooney wanted to call him an attacking player but failed to choose the correct term. There's no guarantee that a top player will become a great pundit or manager and we all know that and saw it ourselves.
Rooney could mean quickly attacking from one defensive box to the attacking box. That's what manutd were famous for in counterattack back in 2008 with C.Ronaldo and a fast rooney.
And if he can’t? Or won’t? What then?
If a player wants a free role with minimum defensive duties, he has to justify it by scoring/assisting a high number of goals. He has to make it so obvious that giving him defensive responsibilities would be seen as a waste.
You don't want the likes of Neymar/Messi/Cristiano to work hard on tracking back to keep it simple.
Pogba hasn't earned that kinda freedom because he isn't that level and he isn't that type of player. Even Lampard who used to score much more was working hard for Chelsea.
You don't want the likes of Neymar/Messi/Cristiano to work hard on tracking back to keep it simple.
Pogba hasn't earned that kinda freedom because he isn't that level and he isn't that type of player. Even Lampard who used to score much more was working hard for Chelsea.
There’s no denying that he needs to put in a shift even in 3 man midfield, however, his positional sense defensively isn’t his greatest asset. Evidently, that makes him do some headless chicken running at times and as a result he also tires himself more quickly. Just stupid to shore him in double pivot when taken the above into account. It’s lose-lose situation.
Maybe I am completely wrong but I think Jose does that (4-2-3-1) because he really likes Lingard and wants him to play too because of his involvement in the final 3rd.
The only way to play with 3 in the middle is to take Lingard off
Most likely, hence his annoyance with Pogba. That’s why managers of his ilk got to make hard decisions sometimes, while most of the time those aren’t obvious to a naked eye this one is clear as a day.
I don't disagree. Something has got to give for sure. Either Pogba transforms into the midfielder he wants and either he takes off Lingard and play with 3 in the middle.
I'm not defending Rooney's mistake. I take issue with people trying to deflect the case for Pogba playing box to box by making a big deal of a slight mistake by Rooney in his communication of the role.
And people? Paradox? Different people have different opinions. And although I haven't seen it, who ever said he needs to play a "free role" is best ignored. No paradox on my part either, I think Pogba is best suited to a box to box role where he can contribute in defence, on the counter, in the build up and create further up field.
The quote above is a slight misquote too
Its clear as day to me that he was saying he's being wasted being shackled in front of the back four and needs to be allowed to make contributions further forward. Its a perfectly valid opinion, not deserving of the ridicule.
No. He wanted to call him a box to box midfielder free of some defensive responsibility in that Matic would be sitting.
If he wanted to call him an "attacking player", he'd have called him an "attacking player", attacker, #10 or a plethora of terms to describe attacking midfielders. That should be obvious from watching the show or even just from the quotes.
There's nothing like that in football.
Box to box midfielder should be great in both boxes, attacking and defending the whole, otherwise he's not "box to box".
"Some" as in less responsibility than what would typically be placed on a #6. Did you read the rest of the sentence?
"Some" as in less responsibility than what would typically be placed on a #6. Did you read the rest of the sentence?
Again I don't know anything like that in football as far as I'm concerned. If he's playing box to box he needs to be supporting Matic continuously on defense then pushes forward when going to attack, otherwise it's not box to box for me.
If we want to give him freedom and keep him forward with less defensive responsibilities, push him to number 10 and put 2 defensively-minded midfielders behind him.
Kroos is an efficient team player though; Pogba is a circus act, and his ego doesn’t allow him to do a proper job for the team as an orthodox central midfielder player - he’s been playing with great players for great clubs for 6 years, if he hasn’t absorbed professionalism by now, he never will.
Apologies for the unpleasant reply on my part, I just get really irked with the fact Rooney is treated on RedCafe as if he is someone like Keown, Souness or Redknapp. Wayne used to play all over the attacking third and definitely had the tactical nous to understand his different positions throughout the years playing for us so he has the knowledge to give opinions on such footballing matters.
I don't even agree as much with Rooney's opinion but he deserves the respect and also played alongside Pogba so maybe they even had a personal chat about this specific topic last season.
Have you not seen a box to box player at work? Modric, Vidal, Gerrard, Lampard, Fletcher with us? All had holding midfielders playing next to them with more defensive responsibility.
You have basically described a #6 who also has to push up to attacking areas. I don't know anything like that.
What is your definition of box to box midfielder ?
A player who is required to make contributions at both ends of the pitch. Will typically need a holding midfielder in there too, to free up the box to box midfielder of some defensive responsibility.
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