May be that's what Ole wants in his centre back pair, his first priority that he look at is they need to be very good in their ball playing and build up play, that's why he wants another one other than Lindelof & Maguire and more a left footed one. Using double pivot as the shield but using his centre back to do playmaking stuffs. Nowdays, it's easier to find ball playing rather than deep playmaker like Carrick, Alonso, Modric, Scholes, Xavi.
Pau Torres
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May be that's what Ole wants in his centre back pair, his first priority that he look at is they need to be very good in their ball playing and build up play, that's why he wants another one other than Lindelof & Maguire and more a left footed one. Using double pivot as the shield but using his centre back to do playmaking stuffs. Nowdays, it's easier to find ball playing rather than deep playmaker like Carrick, Alonso, Modric, Scholes, Xavi.
Maybe, but I don't think having Declan Rice means you can get away with poor defending. The strikers are still going to be playing up against our centre backs.
I'm not saying Torres is a poor defender as I am not well versed in his abilities, only that the Spanish teams we faced played a brand of football we simply do not face in the PL. They struggled with our pace and power and offered a peculiar amount of space, it was counter intuitive and I'm sure it has its own benefits but it's a very different game a defender would have to play over here. If that is typical of the league then that is my concern about transition, because clearly they play that style as it works domestically and they are relatively uncompromised.
Maybe that is the logic, I don't know. I am pretty sure Ole would still have to feel confident about a prospective signings defending, though. Even if the main selling point is building up play he will not be ignoring the idea many teams exploit the fact we make all the running and get space to move into, that they have to defend aerially and against teams that are generally well drilled. If we are being honest some of these Europa games against mid table European sides have been some of our most comfortable games. This is not to make the point that we're somehow superior but that it's a very different type of football and consistency of decent sides we have to face domestically. Which suggests what Lindelof actually does or a transition period for signings shouldn't be underestimated. It's easy to lose sight of this when microscopically eyeing stats.
I never said that the 3 goals from Lindelof's long balls are "many", even though it is much more than those we compare with. I said most of his long balls are difficult one that aim to create a goal scoring opportunity, while Maguire's most of the time are a little easier one to Shaw at the side line.
Here are some examples of good long balls from our CBs against Granada.
Typical Maguire to Shaw at 0:44
The more difficult pass to the centre from Lindelof at 1:01 and 2:13
For me it is clear that the second type of pass is more likely to fail and that you should hit that type less often.
So, it's either a CB whose physicality and defensive ability is debatable or a CB whose height may give him issues and get him bullied in the PL.
Great.
Great.
Again, you provide me nothing to say that ''many/most'' Lindelof long balls are difficult one to aim to create goal scoring opportunity. The first video you provided only had 4 but the stats shows Lindelof made 127 long pass attempted in PL & Maguire made almost double of it 241 long pass attempted. What evidence do you have to strengthened your current weak point to say that Maguire's long passes most of the time are a little easier one to Shaw at the side line? What if half of those 241 long passes are actually the ones you called ''difficult'' passes?
Here proves that Maguire's most long passes are not just at side line to Shaw. Some of those long passes he made vs City (H) are actually the difficult ones and they on difficult angle to make as Maguire is not a left footed.
Nowdays, very rare to find someone like Van Dijk & Maguire who are aerially good but still ball playing.
Manchester United had 10 draws this season, 7 of those were 0-0. We conceded lot of goals on the table but 11 of those goals we conceded came from our first 3 matches of the season. Defensively in general, we have shown an improvement but offensively, there is problem. May be this is where Ole wants to improve. The build up play from the back by signing ball playing left footed centre back and likely Sancho for our front four.
This is something I noticed already last season and has payed attention to. I don’t have stats to back it up, it is based on what I’ve seen with my eyes over the whole season. Of course Maguire also tries a more difficult pass every now and then, but his standard long ball is one he can do with his eyes closed out to the sideline. I don’t even understand what you argue about. Do you agree that there are different level of difficulties on passes or not? Which in that case makes it hard to use stats alone to compare how good someone is with the ball.Again, you provide me nothing to say that ''many/most'' Lindelof long balls are difficult one to aim to create goal scoring opportunity. The first video you provided only had 4 but the stats shows Lindelof made 127 long pass attempted in PL & Maguire made almost double of it 241 long pass attempted. What evidence do you have to strengthened your current weak point to say that Maguire's long passes most of the time are a little easier one to Shaw at the side line? What if half of those 241 long passes are actually the ones you called ''difficult'' passes?
Here proves that Maguire's most long passes are not just at side line to Shaw. Some of those long passes he made vs City (H) are actually the difficult ones and they on difficult angle to make as Maguire is not a left footed.
Well, you just need to pay more attention on Maguire because my second argument is that I disagree with you that Maguire's long passes most of the time are a little easier one to Shaw at the side line, he also made difficult . The problem is that Maguire total pass attempted are double of Lindelof. Missing 50% of those long passes mean you witnessed the same amount as what Lindelof made. And it's not coincidentally that 50% passes you missed could actually the more difficult one like what Lindelof did.
As for the original argument, I never use stats alone to compare how good someone is with the ball. That's why I asked you important question of have you watched him play? And you admitted it yourself that you haven't really pay attention much on him. The stats is only to help you to show bigger picture what type of ball playing he is. Because you are against/disagree to people who had pay attention on him, so I have to use something else other than just based on what I watched.
The main point of having ball playing centre back is not about who's making more difficult level of passes to pull in few moment during the season but how are you going make progress of the ball and how are you going to build the play. It's like Lingard tends to score bangers when he scores, doesn't mean he is better goal scorers / attackers than the ones who score more simple goals.
Ball playing is like deep playmaker now, they need to dictate the play from the back. Maguire & Pau Torres are better at this than Lindelof because they are doing it on constant basis in full 90 minutes, the stats help you to understand it more because they both make more progressive ball than Lindelof. Progressive ball is about progressive run & passes such as forward passes, passing through the line, long ball, dribble to take on players. You have to consider that because you can't call it just because a player pull few higher level of difficulty but rarely making it in the game and choose to waste 85 minutes doing sideway passes.
It's not just in the air. It's being physically adjusted to the pace and power and consistency requirements of the PL. Lindelof himself is a fine example, it's taken him quite a while to reduce the number of occasions where his questionable suitability is exposed. It's probably come from a combination of experience and our team improvement.
If Torres comes from the Spanish league and takes a long time to adjust defensively then we would have to hope this idea that the difference to our build up play would justify it because we would be uprooting a defence that has done well, that's quite a fine balance we would be playing with. He would have a lot of work to do if we start leaking goals because making that kind of difference from centre half won't be trivial. The reality is he may only come in as an option initially and not this game changer, at least until he's learnt the game over here because as important as ballplaying is, we need to keep the ball out of our net and Lindelof is the man with the shirt that is doing a fair job with that.
I mean if he's as good as some people are claiming none of this matters as he will come in, defend well, ping passes around and turn draws into wins. My only point is it might not be as easy as stats and performances for Villarreal suggest. I would not be surprised if we are just looking for a CB option to compete, due to Bailly and Jones unreliability. It might not be that we're looking for this mythic VVD like figure that is the perfect Maguire partner.
You are the one mentioned ''aerial defend''. I'm just making a point on that. Again, if Lindelof is capable to play in this league then someone with similar defensive attribute/style should be able to adapt in here. This is why it's actually even more ideal because if Torres end up needing more time to adapt, we still have Lindelof. There is no other league that can come close to PL level other than La Liga. Looking at City who has 4 options or may be you could say 3 as Ake doesn't play much, it's probably fair to say may be that's another factor why Ole wants Torres, to have 3 options to compete is very good.
Must be an absolute treat at parties..
Here is also where you can’t compare players in different leagues. The time you get on the ball is so different. The level of the opponents is so different. Like when we played Granada, an upper half table team in La Liga. They moved up the back line without the attackers putting any pressure whatsoever on our back line. Our CBs had all the time in the world. Lindelof’s assist to Rashford, he could aim undisturbed for 3 seconds before he hit it. That would not happen very often in the PL. So I think the passing ability for a CB in Spain bs England is difficult to compare.
I am no stranger to use stats to understand things. It’s a daily tool for me in my professional life and that’s why it hurts when people misuse them.
You lads fancy taking this to PM? I don't know about anyone else, but I immediately scroll down extremely fast when I keep seeing these paragraphs of debates over and over again, discussions great but these arguments that go in circles and drag on and on. Always the same person at the heart of it. Maybe I'm on my own though, everyone else might love all the reading!
Let me ask you some simple questions:
Why do you think player who plays on the ball 5/10 in 85 minutes but only does 9/10 in 5 minutes is better than a player who does 7/10 or 8/10 for full 90 minutes? Why do you prefer that?
I don't want to see my ball playing play sideways for 85 minutes and only play useful in 5 minutes. I want them to control the tempo and play progressive for full 90 minutes. This is what you are missing the duty of ball playing centre back and what is better and what is worse.
You can't compare players in different leagues by randomly. But you can compare the two player if you have watch the two players play, have pay attention on two players, study on both player's style and habit. Once you do that, you will know what the player's style, habit, strength. The issue is that I and other poster have pay attention on how Pau Torres plays and Lindelof plays. You on the other hand only pay attention on Lindelof and haven't pay attention enough to watch Pau Torres (you admitted it).
If you pay attention on Pau Torres's style of play. He has instinct of deep playmaker. He's not only press resistance but he wants to dictate, control and play progressive ball in those 90 minutes. In contrast to Lindelof, Torres is not shy to do full 90 minutes progressive ball. He likes to play ball that penetrate through the line, he likes to take on his players, he likes to play long ball whether on the line or diagonal or play passes directly to forward. That's what I meant by better, the same with Maguire despite Maguire plays on more difficult angle. Both want to get involved to play progressive ball while Lindelof is more shy, he prefers to play safe most of the time and not often enough to play risky.
Well I don’t agree that Lindelof doesn’t want to be involved in playing progressive, and don’t penetrate the lines etc. I think that is a very strange conclusion. I said I haven’t watched him much, but then I didn’t know you think 4 matches is all you need to see to know a player either.
You’re definitely not on your own, it’s painful to read. Just arguing for the sake of arguing.
Maguire has played almost all of his career as the left sided centre back. He did for Leicester, does for Utd and England. We need a RCB.
Well, you don't agree but the reality it is. Look at the heat map. Look at Lindelof's passing style, sideways. Look at Maguire's passing style, progressive. Which one do you think better build up play? To me it's Maguire. The same applies to what I & other poster saw about Pau Torres and that's why we say he's better.
Like I said before, Lindelof just need to do more, he doesn't do it too often. Too shy to make it in constant basis during 90 minutes. Ball playing centre backs are crucial in build up play, don't think sideways will benefit for our build up play.
For me, a heat map from one (1!) game doesn’t tell you all you need to know. Here it would be better to use the stats from the whole season instead of 1 game, and you’ll see that Lindelof and Maguire have more or less exactly the same amount of passes sideways, backwards and forward. No difference.Well, you don't agree but the reality it is. Look at the heat map. Look at Lindelof's passing style, sideways. Look at Maguire's passing style, progressive. Which one do you think better build up play? To me it's Maguire. The same applies to what I & other poster saw about Pau Torres and that's why we say he's better.
Like I said before, Lindelof just need to do more, he doesn't do it too often. Too shy to make it in constant basis during 90 minutes.
It’s fine if you think Maguires build up game is better, but that’s only your personal opinion. They have different ways but I wouldn’t say one is superior to the other. Lindelof as example is a little faster on the ball and his passes have more drive.
Agree, me and @UNITED ACADEMY are discussing something that is now far away from the topic and going in circles. Sorry for that.
Aren't you forgetting that initially I posted the whole season stats about Lindelof, Maguire & Torres passing attempted to give you better idea about the player in whole season? I haven't just given you one match, but overall stats & also from what I watched. You are keep going circle mate despite of me already posting the stats from whole season.
Let’s leave it here, we are destroying the thread for everybody else. I agree with 75% of your assessment and that’s not to bad
Let’s leave it here, we are destroying the thread for everybody else. I agree with 75% of your assessment and that’s not to bad
They don't need to read though. You are being sucked in to what they said for no reason when we are just discussing.
I like that you have put effort in to diving deep in to individual stats and drawn conclusions from it, and I learned several new things.
But, I feel we left the subject. In another more suitable thread maybe, but not here.
This comparisons to other leagues is going a bit to far. The PL is the best and most physical yes, but players from other leagues can and do perform very well. Ruben Dias comes from Portugal and has been very good in the Prem. Same for Bruno as an attacker. Bailly has all the physicality you can want. It's mostly about the player and not the league.
We have ball playing defenders. Lindelof plays some neat balls up the middle, both CBs run the ball out of defence at times, Maguire hits long diagonal passes and Lindelof has played some great passes over the backline of our opponents for our attackers to get on the end of.
What needs improvement is defending, especially on set pieces
Don’t get me wrong id like rice as well
but, in my opinion we need to stop looking at defenders whose weak points are actually defending
we have Lindelof we don’t need another one
but, in my opinion we need to stop looking at defenders whose weak points are actually defending
we have Lindelof we don’t need another one
Paying his buyout clause in this market would be crazy unless Chelsea want him. No club outside of the PL will spend that on him and City don't need a centre half so that leaves Chelsea as the other club who might be in the market for a centre half.
Yeah would love to think Pau could come here and have a Dias like impact but don't feel that's realistically gonna happen, still hoping we go for Varane but saw something recently which suggests we either go for Rice (covers CB too) or him but won't be both by the sounds of things.
Another CB target to play shit against us?
How did he play tonight just out of interest
Only seen him for about 20mins, three times and I see a lot are comparing....and lazy, but I will too. Apart from beign left footed, his looks, way he moves, positioning, hand behind the back when trying to block crosses etc etc.....he does kind of seem like Lindelof but left footed. Even if he is much better, why should we be signing a similar type of player even if better just because they are left footed.
Not sure there is truth in these rumours and not seen enough to make a comprehensive judgement, but not seen anything impressive myself from what I have watched, quite the opposite in fact. Dont watch much Spanish football now it isnt on SKy, but the little I have seen, none of these newer defenders seem stellar to me, Kounde as well seems decent but not a centre back that takes us to another level......then again Dias looked massively over rated to me at Benfica and he has got better and better in his debut season at City
Not sure there is truth in these rumours and not seen enough to make a comprehensive judgement, but not seen anything impressive myself from what I have watched, quite the opposite in fact. Dont watch much Spanish football now it isnt on SKy, but the little I have seen, none of these newer defenders seem stellar to me, Kounde as well seems decent but not a centre back that takes us to another level......then again Dias looked massively over rated to me at Benfica and he has got better and better in his debut season at City
Like Ruban Dias yeah?!
I wish
Well the idea would presumably be for Torres to replace Lindelof in the team, so it's not like we'd be playing them together.
And if we signed a similar player to Lindelof it would simply be because that's the sort of CB we want. That's why Lindelof was so decisively chosen over Smalling (who many on the caf would have preferred) and has been one of our first choice CBs ever since. So I'm not sure why people would think we wouldn't opt for a better version of that, as opposed to signing a different type of defender entirely. The latter seems far less likely to me.
Yeah we would all love for him to come in and have that kind of impact, will admit I am a huge fan of Varane but IF he came in and really hit the ground running then could live with missing out on Raphael again
He’s a left footed Lindelof with more progressive ball. Ole wanted a left footed is not new thing since that comment on Ake last year.
The fact of the similarity is enough to tell you that he won’t get the same treatment as Bailly but he will be able to compete with our main centre backs as that’s probably how our manager is looking for the criteria in his centre back.
City has Dias, Stones & Laporte. I guess, that’s probably what we are aiming to have 3 reliable options?
Varane seems to be past it and isn't he injury prone?
The problem is, we never know how new players develop. Dias was not that impressive, now he made a huge step. With Torres, it could be the same - or he becomes the new Jones.
Swapsies with Bailly?