Patrick Dorgu | United in talks

Smores said:
None of those situations are really comparable Estupinan is the closest coming from Villarreal but he'd struggled in his career til that point. We all know it's cheaper to shop in the smaller leagues.

It's also a bit disingenuous to cite bargains and their current level, were any of them ready for United when they signed?

Of course there's bargains out there and we could also pick up transfers from the championship or smaller leagues (see Leon). For a player in a top league and one who we think is ready now the quoted fees are nothing.

I've never seen this level of nitpicking over a fee to be honest. It's bizarre and can only be due us not going after posters favoured target.
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What is this "united level" ? We're 13th and there are players at the clubs around the relegation zone who are playing better than our players.

Estupinan had 5 assists and 1 goal, starting 32 games with 4 sub appearances on loan at Mallorca from Watford before Villarreal bought him. He was 22 and had proven himself in La Liga already by that time.

Dorgu will have done well to follow in his footsteps and prove himself a good fullback in a top league by 22.
 
didz said:
Why negotiate buyback clauses (which lead to a lower initial fee) if you're too scared of the big scary Bournemouth fans laughing at you and calling you amateurish when you trigger it?
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It's more the timeframe we would be operating in, and it's hardly like we're using it to fend off other clubs after him. Add to that it's for a position most of us knew we would struggle with relying on Shaw and Malacia to cover. Still can't believe they were our 2 natural LBs for this season.

So I guess the buying back wouldn't be the worst part, it's everything around it that if would confirm. Hence why I think the board are probably too proud to admit this openly.
 
groovyalbert said:
It's more the timeframe we would be operating in, and it's hardly like we're using it to fend off other clubs after him. Add to that it's for a position most of us knew we would struggle with relying on Shaw and Malacia to cover. Still can't believe they were our 2 natural LBs for this season.

So I guess the buying back wouldn't be the worst part, it's everything around it that if would confirm. Hence why I think the board are probably too proud to admit this openly.
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One thing we absolutely know about the people in charge is that they don't seem to act on optics at all.

Also, you might have missed it but reports have been linking Liverpool with Alvaro since about October, as a replacement for that Andy prick who shouts at wingers when they run past him.
 
Champ said:
City just signed two young unproven in the premiership players for circa £30m, Philogene went to Ipswich for £20m recently, Nuamah is rumoured to be costing Everton over £20m, Bade is also rumoured to be around £25m for Villa if they want to sign....

Considering the actual rumoured fee for Dorgu is 30 million euros, which is a shade over/same as those fees I've just mentioned, I'd say on context of the clubs involved it's a very decent fee...

I think you're moaning for the sake of it really.
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Just because you've listed 4 players around and under the fee Lecce are demanding, doesn't mean it's a 'very decent fee' for Dorgu. Bizarre logic, each valuation is unique depending on the individual player. Lecce bought him for 200k less than 2 years ago, after watching him play and looking at his stats we're getting ripped off. He'd be odds on for getting sold for half the fee or under in a few years time like AWB.
 
didz said:
One thing we absolutely know about the people in charge is that they don't seem to act on optics at all.

Also, you might have missed it but reports have been linking Liverpool with Alvaro since about October, as a replacement for that Andy prick who shouts at wingers when they run past him.
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Hadn't seen him linked there - assumed they were getting one of Robinson or Kerkez. We would look so shite if he went there and smashed it :lol:
 
groovyalbert said:
I think you're misremembering the amount of frustration people had with Ronaldo at the time, including our own players. There were many fans happy for us to ship him out after the 06 world cup incident with Rooney too.

Agree with you regarding the squad players you mentioned but this is fundamentally about valuation.

We are massively undervaluing Garnacho (who is also on low wages) if we fork him out for £50m or so, and then spend £35m (or around that) on Dorgu. They're nowhere near the same level in current standing or potential.
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I remember all too well, but even then the skill level, first touch the aura etc was on a completely other level. After playing Sporting our main first team told fergie to buy him, says it all.

Gernacho is decent but he lacks the technicality and the game intelligence, and he doesn't have Ronnie type attributes to compensate.
 
I literally have no idea of the player. A question for those who have followed him (not YouTube videos), how is he technically and from a stand point, is he a good dribbler? Currently we need somebody from LWB slot who gets the ball and run at opposition. Plus his delivery and finishing should also be good because our wide full backs get into very promising situations. Sometimes in the box aswell when Amad is attacking from other side. Ideally we need somebody who is a winger on the attacking side and okayish defender. Like a hard working winger.
 
I don't know anything about Dorgu. What I do know is that this thread demonstrates how comprehensively we have lost faith in our scouting and recruitment system. (With good reason). Were we so much better when we were picking out Solskjaer, Chicharito, Vidic, Stam et al or have I just forgotten how many duds we signed then, too (albeit for far lower transfer fees and wages)?
 
One thing I'd mention - given he's moved around and played LB, RW and RB for Lecce this season and given Amorim has shown a propensity to use left-footed players at RWB (Amad, Quenda), it's not inconceivable to me that he'd be targeted for that position long-term but with the ability to cover a few different positions which could be useful.

There's a real lack of quality RWB options in football today, particularly when you eliminate a lot of the top options who wouldn't be available to Utd or at least appear to be (i.e. Hakimi, Trent, Reece James, Carvajal, Porro).

Given there are far more realistic LWB options, United could possibly sign Dorgu (probably the best fit given he's played quite extensively on the right-side and so might find it easier to adapt than others) + one of the other alternatives that it seems most people prefer like Carreras and upgrade on both sides. Dalot isn't the right profile and we know how important these wing-backs are to this whole system so Amorim might be looking at both positions as his top priorities this summer.
 
sullydnl said:
If you trigger the buy-back for Alvaro, you don't get the sell on fee and PSR boost when another club buys him for more. So it's a more costly deal than the simple buy-back clause suggests.
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Excellent point that I had not considered, especially as there are talks of other teams being in for him for around £50m in the summer, no idea what the sell on clause is but supposedly Pereira was 20% so could easily see similar, still £10m is as you say an instant PSR boost, I have also read (trying to find the sell on clause figure) that potentially the buy back clause is not £16.7m but £16.7m + the original fee of £9m so actually £25.7m which is a massive difference
 
Lecce already wanting to buy another full back from Portugal, so this story must have some legs.
 
Insanity said:
Oh, the "It's not my money" argument. I thought we had seen the last of it after we flushed millions of dollars down the shit-hole...but here we are.

Definitely, need to get my head checked.
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You might if you you drew that conlusion from that post. The point is rather that having adamant and specific ideas about a players market value based on a few compilations and a look at a few superficial and irrelevant factors is just silly, still we have to plough past hundreds such adamant posts to get to anything relevant about the player or enquiry in this thread.

You started well acknowledging that fact, so I wanted to ‘retweet’ that, and I removed the part where you went ahead and had a very adamant and specific opinion anyhow.
 
Grande said:
You might if you you drew that conlusion from that post. The point is rather that having adamant and specific ideas about a players market value based on a few compilations and a look at a few superficial and irrelevant factors is just silly, still we have to plough past hundreds such adamant posts to get to anything relevant about the player or enquiry in this thread.

You started well acknowledging that fact, so I wanted to ‘retweet’ that, and I removed the part where you went ahead and had a very adamant and specific opinion anyhow.
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I also mentioned "his overall profile", which is his senior career so far at Leece and an estimation based on how much a raw FB playing at a bottom table Italian player should cost...but hey, that didn't fit with idea of making some smart ass comment....so here we are, 5 posts later.
 
Sucks that Bradley Locko got seriously injured before this season started. Really liked his profile and he woulda been available for much cheaper than Dorgu.
 
Scriblerus said:
I don't know anything about Dorgu. What I do know is that this thread demonstrates how comprehensively we have lost faith in our scouting and recruitment system. (With good reason). Were we so much better when we were picking out Solskjaer, Chicharito, Vidic, Stam et al or have I just forgotten how many duds we signed then, too (albeit for far lower transfer fees and wages)?
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It was a lot easier to add players like that in to a top team though.

My main gripe against Dorgu is that we need more players that are ready for the Premier League now, not in 2/3/4 years time.
 
I e got a feeling we are buying a player that isn’t all that. Even YouTube compilations make him look pretty average. This is a desperate purchase and I can see us paying too much for him. The next purchase needs to work before concerns over the new structure really start to grow for many supporters.
 
It should be obvious why United being interested by definition drives up a players price / value.

The fact that United want to buy him suggests our Scouts and recruitment team think he's going to become one of the best LBs in the World. Otherwise we simply wouldn't be making an offer

When you sit down at the negotiating table, it's quite hard then to make a case for paying less....because clearly we think he's a top, top talent. £25m seems the minimum you would ever expect to pay...and if we put him on sensible wages and he does "OK", we'll get £15m back anyway when we sell.

Got to get used to thinking in a non-binary way people! Transfers are not only "successes" or "failures", there's a scale and many factors to consider!
 
FrankWhite said:
Let's not kid ourselves, this is full-on united tax. It's the same rational that lead to us paying 86 million for Antony. Paying close to 40 million is our signal to the rest of the clubs that is the same ol united.
Personally, I would offer them the same deal as Napoli and wait till the summer.
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Us agreeing to this would exacerbate United tax. But the price they are asking for isn’t United tax. Napoli have offered a much more beneficial deal for Lecce hence why they might agree to it unless we pay a premium.
 
soapythecat said:
I e got a feeling we are buying a player that isn’t all that. Even YouTube compilations make him look pretty average. This is a desperate purchase and I can see us paying too much for him. The next purchase needs to work before concerns over the new structure really start to grow for many supporters.
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He doesn't look great to me either.

Maybe they seem him as a cheap, quick fix that we can sell on in a few years.

He can play lots of positions so maybe his versatility is valuable right now.
 
luke511 said:
Just because you've listed 4 players around and under the fee Lecce are demanding, doesn't mean it's a 'very decent fee' for Dorgu. Bizarre logic, each valuation is unique depending on the individual player. Lecce bought him for 200k less than 2 years ago, after watching him play and looking at his stats we're getting ripped off. He'd be odds on for getting sold for half the fee or under in a few years time like AWB.
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We signed Garnacho for £400k, yet he's worth £40m plus easy, what is your point with that??

I listed several similar transfers that are going for the same money to show that £20/30m is pretty much the going rate for similar players, not sure that's too hard to understand?

Each transfer fee is based on a) the player themselves, B) whether the selling club needs to sell and c) how desperate the buying club are for that or similar players....here Lecce don't need to sell right now, United needs wide players and Dorgu is widely regarded as a young European talent....all told anywhere between £20-30m isn't too bad.
 
I watched a few more videos. Lad looks rough on the ball, it seems to bounce of off him too much for my liking. He might be physically more imposing than Dalot and Mazraoui, but technically, he looks well below them both.
 
This is all very difficult. Most of the requests here speak about him not being good enough or being too expensive for what he has shown.

I'm not sure where we expect to find someone who is more "the finished article" without paying the earth for it. We are in a global market now and there are many clubs out there who are also looking for players - most of these clubs are probably in a financially better situation with a much more stable environment for the player to go into. If he were better either more clubs would be in for him or the selling club would be asking for drastically more. We are not going to suddenly find a player who is amazing at everything that we can pick up for peanuts. The only club that routinely manages this is Real Madrid who convince players to wind their contracts down for them.

Our main hope is that Wilcox and Amorim can put their heads together and find talents they believe can outperform their current stats, based on changes to the players training, position and fit into the team. None of us are close enough to what goes on behind closed doors at Carrington to really understand whether this player will achieve that.

If Wilcox and Reuben feel this guy is the one to go for, has the right mindset and physical attributes, and can identify areas of the team where this player will improve the team beyond just that players raw stats, then I'm in.
 
VP89 said:
He looked a polished player straight away in a Brighton shirt, and his fee was 4m, not 40m.
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No he didn’t, if I remember correctly it took at least 6 months before he started getting picked on a semi regular basis. Hang on let’s hear from resident Brighton fan @The Cat
 
Zed 101 said:
If we have the money to spend I do not see why we are not going for Alvaro Fernandez, I do not see why he does not fit the system, would be guaranteed lower fee, what don't we know? can we not trigger the buy back yet? is there some other reason he was sold??? seems bizarre to me that we would potentially spend double on Dorgu
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My own uneducated take on this is that Dorgu is quite the athlete, 6ft2, lightening quick, and is described by fans as having the running capability of 2 players. The guy can run up and down all day long
 
golden_blunder said:
My own uneducated take on this is that Dorgu is quite the athlete, 6ft2, lightening quick, and is described by fans as having the running capability of 2 players. The guy can run up and down all day long
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Which is exactly what you want as a base. an XI of those type of players that will work like dogs collectively.
 
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