Patrick Dorgu | United in talks

quadrant said:
Firstly, the idea that 4GA makes him a write off, but 6GA would be ok, is kind of ridiculous. One more goal and one more assist over 20 games is a marginal difference. Those numbers are very clearly in the same bracket of performance.

Secondly, the notion that £30M is the preserve of stand out players is from a different era. Given its January and we would be taking away one of the better players from a team fighting relegation, that figure is about right for a player that the club think can both contribute short term but also has a higher ceiling than their current performance level.

If there's another left wing back on the market with an order of magnitude better GA and/or a fraction of the price, I'd very clearly prefer them. But given the options on the market right now I don't have any issue with this transfer.
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Firstly I've never said we shouldnt be interested. I've said the opposite. I'm only critical of the fee thats being talked about. And no 2 less goals and assists isnt the same level of performance.

Secondly thats the exact thinking that saw ETH spend £600 million and not bring the team forward. Most teams dont need to spend £30 million on a player to do quite well, and certainly not to get them towards the europa league places. And almost none of them spend it on someone to play leftback.

This would be in the same boat as spending over £62 million on Hojlund. Its more than the initial just under £18 million we paid for Amad, then needing to wait for him to be ready for 3-4 years. With the bonus fees we might end up paying all of coming in at another £15.57 million itll come to £33.55 million

That end fee is about what Lecce are asking for. If its £18 million up front and the rest in bonuses fair enough but theres been no talk of that so far.
 
Infra-red said:
Topped off by sacking the manager who wants to play with wingbacks a few months later, only to replace him with a manager who prefers wingers - would be a classic United move.
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Fortunately, Dorgu is as much a right winger as he is a left back, so we wouldn't have to worry about him not having a position when Bobby Sackwatch comes in and says 3 numbers that add up to ten like it means something.

As far as I know, he's only ever played specifically as a wingback in one senior competitive match, for Denmark on his first start. Lecce play 4 at the back, with Dorgu usually either at left back or as a right wing forward. He's also played games at right back and on the left wing. Apparently midfield too.
 
I know you can never judge a player from 2 min compilations, but having watched a few of them and his overall profile anything over gbp 25m would be excessive for him. I hope we don't go over that and are ready to walk away from the deal if Leece don't lower their demands.
 
didz said:
Fortunately, Dorgu is as much a right winger as he is a left back, so we wouldn't have to worry about him not having a position when Bobby Sackwatch comes in and says 3 numbers that add up to ten like it means something.

As far as I know, he's only ever played specifically as a wingback in one senior competitive match, for Denmark on his first start. Lecce play 4 at the back, with Dorgu usually either at left back or as a right wing forward. He's also played games at right back and on the left wing. Apparently midfield too.
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It will be fun when he starts at RWB and Dalot continues at LWB when everyone is expecting it the other way around.
 
The one ray of hope I’m clinging on to is that we have supposedly gone and employed the best of the best executives. I would hope that the data and analysis of Dorgu has been thorough and he goes on to improve us massively. Gone are the days of ETH recommending all his old buddies!
 
Rasmus_9 said:
The one ray of hope I’m clinging on to is that we have supposedly gone and employed the best of the best executives. I would hope that the data and analysis of Dorgu has been thorough and he goes on to improve us massively. Gone are the days of ETH recommending all his old buddies!
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Those very people paid 40M on Zirkzee
 
Grande said:
Based on seeing two compilations of him, I am adamant we should pay not above €39m and not below £31m, and that anyone listening to my evaluation should have their head checked.
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Oh, the "It's not my money" argument. I thought we had seen the last of it after we flushed millions of dollars down the shit-hole...but here we are.

Definitely, need to get my head checked.
 
Ekeke said:
And no 2 less goals and assists isnt the same level of performance.
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The range we're talking about here goes from 0 GA to about 30GA for the best attackers. On that scale, 4 and 6 are objectively close to each other.

Ekeke said:
Secondly thats the exact thinking that saw ETH spend £600 million and not bring the team forward. Most teams dont need to spend £30 million on a player to do quite well, and certainly not to get them towards the europa league places. And almost none of them spend it on someone to play leftback.

This would be in the same boat as spending over £62 million on Hojlund. Its more than the initial just under £18 million we paid for Amad, then needing to wait for him to be ready for 3-4 years. With the bonus fees we might end up paying all of coming in at another £15.57 million itll come to £33.55 million

That end fee is about what Lecce are asking for. If its £18 million up front and the rest in bonuses fair enough but theres been no talk of that so far.
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This is looking at the situation backwards. The issue is that we bought players that weren't good enough, not the amount of money we spent on them. If you fill a squad with poor players at half the price, you still end up mid-table. If Dorgu is good enough to play for United, £30M is acceptable for a young player in that position. If he isn't good enough, then he isn't even worth £18M.
 
quadrant said:
The range we're talking about here goes from 0 GA to about 30GA for the best attackers. On that scale, 4 and 6 are objectively close to each other.



This is looking at the situation backwards. The issue is that we bought players that weren't good enough, not the amount of money we spent on them. If you fill a squad with poor players at half the price, you still end up mid-table. If Dorgu is good enough to play for United, £30M is acceptable for a young player in that position. If he isn't good enough, then he isn't even worth £18M.
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That doesnt make any sense. There are loads of players who are currently good enough for this United that dont cost £30 million
 
Ekeke said:
That doesnt make any sense. There are loads of players who are currently good enough for this United that dont cost £30 million
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Who can play left wing back, is better than Dorgu, available in January and substantially less than £30M? I doubt we’re awash with options to be honest.
 
Rojofiam said:
Whoever was saying that couldn't have been more wrong :lol: Garnacho is light years away even from Rashford or Martial, let alone Ronaldo ffs
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That's not true at all. Garnacho is tracking incredibly well to be a seriously impressive player imo. Yes, he's selfish and wasteful at times. He's also 20 and doesn't shy away from taking chances. Statistically he's comparable to all those you've mentioned and in some cases ahead (including Ronaldo).
 
quadrant said:
Who can play left wing back, is better than Dorgu, available in January and substantially less than £30M? I doubt we’re awash with options to be honest.
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Agree beggars can't be choosers at this point, and his versatility can help Ruben paper over some cracks when something is not working in game until he gets his team fully setup in summer and beyond.

Hopefully this allows us to move Dalot back to the right as Mazraoui is clearly a L/RCB.
 
groovyalbert said:
That's not true at all. Garnacho is tracking incredibly well to be a seriously impressive player imo. Yes, he's selfish and wasteful at times. He's also 20 and doesn't shy away from taking chances. Statistically he's comparable to all those you've mentioned and in some cases ahead (including Ronaldo).
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Stats are half the picture, Ronaldo was clearly light years ahead in talent. But if you do look at his stats a lot of them are shocking like dribble completion etc. I think we over hype our own players because the standard is set too low.

Many people didn't rate Phil Neville, Brown, Butt, etc. but they would walk into our team today and be starters
 
quadrant said:
Who can play left wing back, is better than Dorgu, available in January and substantially less than £30M? I doubt we’re awash with options to be honest.
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No we arent, but that wasnt the point. A player isnt automatically worth £30 million becuase "they are good enough for United"

Theres loads of players who cost their teams much less and would be an improvement on what we have right now

Ait-Nouri cost Wolves £9.38 million when they signed him

Antonee Robinson cost Fulham £1.77 million when they signed him

Estupinan cost Brighton £15 million when they signed him

Kerkez cost Bournemouth £15 million when they signed him

We're signing a young player who isnt better than any of those players, but we hope to be as good as them in time... But we're paying a lot more than they cost.
 
Ekeke said:
No we arent, but that wasnt the point. A player isnt automatically worth £30 million becuase "they are good enough for United"

Theres loads of players who cost their teams much less and would be an improvement on what we have right now

Ait-Nouri cost Wolves £9.38 million when they signed him

Antonee Robinson cost Fulham £1.77 million when they signed him

Estupinan cost Brighton £15 million when they signed him

Kerkez cost Bournemouth £15 million when they signed him

We're signing a young player who isnt better than any of those players, but we hope to be as good as them in time... But we're paying a lot more than they cost.
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There's no point in listing a bunch of players who were signed for small fees before they'd made their names in the prem. Most of them took a season or two before they got going, so even if we tried to do that now we're probably not getting anyone ready to start at the weekend.

Plus, we're still paying for the Woodward/Arnold era and all the overspending. These clubs see United are calling and instantly add another £10m to any asking price.
 
Ekeke said:
No we arent, but that wasnt the point. A player isnt automatically worth £30 million becuase "they are good enough for United"

Theres loads of players who cost their teams much less and would be an improvement on what we have right now

Ait-Nouri cost Wolves £9.38 million when they signed him

Antonee Robinson cost Fulham £1.77 million when they signed him

Estupinan cost Brighton £15 million when they signed him

Kerkez cost Bournemouth £15 million when they signed him

We're signing a young player who isnt better than any of those players, but we hope to be as good as them in time... But we're paying a lot more than they cost.
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I don't get why some people are against the idea of not paying too much for a kid playing for a team in a relegation battle in Italy, who, isn't a finished product and is not even a top 10 or 20 talent for his age bracket (Yoro for example was viewed as one of the top CBs for his age bracket), even if he is a highly thought of talent, £30M is too much, it should not go too far beyond £20 and based on what Fab says, we offered £23/€27, which is a generous offer from the club, if Lecce want way more than that then they should move on.
 
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Crimson King said:
There's no point in listing a bunch of players who were signed for small fees before they'd made their names in the prem. Most of them took a season or two before they got going, so even if we tried to do that now we're probably not getting anyone ready to start at the weekend.

Plus, we're still paying for the Woodward/Arnold era and all the overspending. These clubs see United are calling and instantly add another £10m to any asking price.
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Has Dorgu made his name in the premier league? And yes he will need time to get going. He's not as good as them now, may not be as good as them in a year

And yes you're right clubs are constantly trying to fleece us. Why do you want us to bend over?
 
Ekeke said:
Has Dorgu made his name in the premier league? And yes he will need time to get going. He's not as good as them now, may not be as good as them in a year

And yes you're right clubs are constantly trying to fleece us. Why do you want us to bend over?
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As long as they provide lube....
 
gulli_G said:
Stats are half the picture, Ronaldo was clearly light years ahead in talent. But if you do look at his stats a lot of them are shocking like dribble completion etc. I think we over hype our own players because the standard is set too low.

Many people didn't rate Phil Neville, Brown, Butt, etc. but they would walk into our team today and be starters
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I think you're misremembering the amount of frustration people had with Ronaldo at the time, including our own players. There were many fans happy for us to ship him out after the 06 world cup incident with Rooney too.

Agree with you regarding the squad players you mentioned but this is fundamentally about valuation.

We are massively undervaluing Garnacho (who is also on low wages) if we fork him out for £50m or so, and then spend £35m (or around that) on Dorgu. They're nowhere near the same level in current standing or potential.
 
Ekeke said:
No we arent, but that wasnt the point. A player isnt automatically worth £30 million becuase "they are good enough for United"

Theres loads of players who cost their teams much less and would be an improvement on what we have right now

Ait-Nouri cost Wolves £9.38 million when they signed him

Antonee Robinson cost Fulham £1.77 million when they signed him

Estupinan cost Brighton £15 million when they signed him

Kerkez cost Bournemouth £15 million when they signed him

We're signing a young player who isnt better than any of those players, but we hope to be as good as them in time... But we're paying a lot more than they cost.
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City just signed two young unproven in the premiership players for circa £30m, Philogene went to Ipswich for £20m recently, Nuamah is rumoured to be costing Everton over £20m, Bade is also rumoured to be around £25m for Villa if they want to sign....

Considering the actual rumoured fee for Dorgu is 30 million euros, which is a shade over/same as those fees I've just mentioned, I'd say on context of the clubs involved it's a very decent fee...

I think you're moaning for the sake of it really.
 
Not at all convinced by this guy. Could turn out to be another Dalot or Malacia.

We need proven talent at the moment.
 
If we have the money to spend I do not see why we are not going for Alvaro Fernandez, I do not see why he does not fit the system, would be guaranteed lower fee, what don't we know? can we not trigger the buy back yet? is there some other reason he was sold??? seems bizarre to me that we would potentially spend double on Dorgu
 
Ekeke said:
Has Dorgu made his name in the premier league? And yes he will need time to get going. He's not as good as them now, may not be as good as them in a year

And yes you're right clubs are constantly trying to fleece us. Why do you want us to bend over?
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No, but just because not many people on here have heard of Dorgu doesn't mean he hasn't made a name for himself. He's been one of the best players in a team fighting relegation in Serie A and a number of teams were looking at him last summer, and definitely will be this summer if they keep hold of him. He has caps for Denmark now as well.

The time to sign him would have been in January 2024 when he'd only played a few games for their first team. Or, probably scouted and signed him straight from Denmark. The club probably didn't think he was good enough or we had better prospect in Amass and Alvarez. They probably weren't focusing on a player better equipped as a WB either. This somewhat highlights the biggest weakness in the recruitment strategy at this time, both for the first team and youth teams. The emphasis was more on technical quality, whereas in the EPL every team is getting stronger and faster, but still with technically proficient players.
 
Zed 101 said:
If we have the money to spend I do not see why we are not going for Alvaro Fernandez, I do not see why he does not fit the system, would be guaranteed lower fee, what don't we know? can we not trigger the buy back yet? is there some other reason he was sold??? seems bizarre to me that we would potentially spend double on Dorgu
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I don't know any better than you, but we can guess that Dorgu's versatility is a big draw seeing as we're not just empty at left back, we're light on attackers too. There's also the possibility that Alvaro wants to finish a full season at Benfica - he's in a title race and the Champions League, after all. Or maybe we just haven't gotten around to it yet, because reasons.
 
Ekeke said:
No we arent, but that wasnt the point. A player isnt automatically worth £30 million becuase "they are good enough for United"

Theres loads of players who cost their teams much less and would be an improvement on what we have right now

Ait-Nouri cost Wolves £9.38 million when they signed him

Antonee Robinson cost Fulham £1.77 million when they signed him

Estupinan cost Brighton £15 million when they signed him

Kerkez cost Bournemouth £15 million when they signed him

We're signing a young player who isnt better than any of those players, but we hope to be as good as them in time... But we're paying a lot more than they cost.
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I'm not neccessarily disagreeing with you, but I thought it would be a nice to add some context to those transfers you mention;

Ait-Nouri cost Wolves £9.38 million when they signed him: Arguably an even less proven player at the time compared to Dorgu now, bought as an 18yo and has taken quite a few seasons to get to the level he is now.

Antonee Robinson cost Fulham £1.77 million when they signed him: Wigan was in finacial turmoil at the time (they were under administration), and on top of that Robinson had even failed a medical during a proposed move to AC Milan just prior.

Estupinan cost Brighton £15 million when they signed him: Villareal was also in finacial distress after missing out on Champions League, and they had several LB's where Estupinan was only a rotational option. They had to sell someone (and didn't receive bids for Pau Torres/Danjuma etc)

Kerkez cost Bournemouth £15 million when they signed him: Only one season as a regular starter in the Eredivisie so more unproven then Dorgu at the time, bought for more then we paid for Malacia comparably (hit and a miss for us in hindsight of course).

To add, they where all bought during the summer which is considered an easier market to operate in, especially considering that we're also trying to buy a starting 11 player from a team that is battling relegation.
I'd say it's quite natural that we're looking at a higher fee than all the mentioned transfers. I'm agreeing with you that £30m is steep for Dorgu though (but I do think/hope we will settle on a slightly lower fee than that).
Might also add that Lecce is seemingly a very well run club so financially they are in no need of selling; https://en.italiani.it/Lecce-sporti...s-tripled-and-budget-ok-here-are-the-numbers/
 
Ekeke said:
No we arent, but that wasnt the point. A player isnt automatically worth £30 million becuase "they are good enough for United"

Theres loads of players who cost their teams much less and would be an improvement on what we have right now

Ait-Nouri cost Wolves £9.38 million when they signed him

Antonee Robinson cost Fulham £1.77 million when they signed him

Estupinan cost Brighton £15 million when they signed him

Kerkez cost Bournemouth £15 million when they signed him

We're signing a young player who isnt better than any of those players, but we hope to be as good as them in time... But we're paying a lot more than they cost.
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None of those situations are really comparable Estupinan is the closest coming from Villarreal but he'd struggled in his career til that point. We all know it's cheaper to shop in the smaller leagues.

It's also a bit disingenuous to cite bargains and their current level, were any of them ready for United when they signed?

Of course there's bargains out there and we could also pick up transfers from the championship or smaller leagues (see Leon). For a player in a top league and one who we think is ready now the quoted fees are nothing.

I've never seen this level of nitpicking over a fee to be honest. It's bizarre and can only be due us not going after posters favoured target.
 
Zed 101 said:
If we have the money to spend I do not see why we are not going for Alvaro Fernandez, I do not see why he does not fit the system, would be guaranteed lower fee, what don't we know? can we not trigger the buy back yet? is there some other reason he was sold??? seems bizarre to me that we would potentially spend double on Dorgu
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If you trigger the buy-back for Alvaro, you don't get the sell on fee and PSR boost when another club buys him for more. So it's a more costly deal than the simple buy-back clause suggests.

Amorim has also been complaining about our physical levels pretty much every week since he arrived, and the reports have been that the club is specifically looking to increase the physicality of what is a very lightweight team. In that context Dorgu fits the profile of what we're looking for better than Alvaro does, as he's an obviously better athlete.

Plus the club simply might not rate Alvaro as much as posters on here do. They've worked with him for years, they know his strengths/weaknesses better than any other club on the planet. And while Alvaro is certainly playing well from what I've seen, playing well for Benfica doesn't mean you're the right player for Man United any more than not having made it at Man Utd in the first place does. It would hardly be surprising if a few months of playing well hasn't radically changed the club's mind on his qualities/limitations, whether their opinion was right or not to begin with.
 
Zed 101 said:
If we have the money to spend I do not see why we are not going for Alvaro Fernandez, I do not see why he does not fit the system, would be guaranteed lower fee, what don't we know? can we not trigger the buy back yet? is there some other reason he was sold??? seems bizarre to me that we would potentially spend double on Dorgu
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Very valid question. I guess you can't force him.to come back and he's having a great time at Benfica, playing at the top of European football. I imagine there's a pride element from our side too. We would look pretty amateurish to bring him back 6 months after having sold him. Not dissimilar to the Ashworth debacle.
 
groovyalbert said:
Very valid question. I guess you can't force him.to come back and he's having a great time at Benfica, playing at the top of European football. I imagine there's a pride element from our side too. We would look pretty amateurish to bring him back 6 months after having sold him. Not dissimilar to the Ashworth debacle.
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I don’t think it looks amateurish at all, not when we have negotiated the very buy back clause which would allow us bring him back cheaply in the first place.
 
sullydnl said:
If you trigger the buy-back for Alvaro, you don't get the sell on fee and PSR boost when another club buys him for more. So it's a more costly deal than the simple buy-back clause suggests.

Amorim has also been complaining about our physical levels pretty much every week since he arrived, and the reports have been that the club is specifically looking to increase the physicality of what is a very lightweight team. In that context Dorgu fits the profile of what we're looking for better than Alvaro does, as he's an obviously better athlete.

Plus the club simply might not rate Alvaro as much as posters on here do. They've worked with him for years, they know his strengths/weaknesses better than any other club on the planet. And while Alvaro is certainly playing well from what I've seen, playing well for Benfica doesn't mean you're the right player for Man United any more than not having made it at Man Utd in the first place does. It would hardly be surprising if a few months of playing well hasn't radically changed the club's mind on his qualities/limitations.
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Benfica is a higher level than Lecce, and presumably we would be bringing back a home grown player - something we may need to be wary of if we are considering shipping out the likes of Garnacho, Rashford and Mainoo.
 
Crimson King said:
No, but just because not many people on here have heard of Dorgu doesn't mean he hasn't made a name for himself. He's been one of the best players in a team fighting relegation in Serie A and a number of teams were looking at him last summer, and definitely will be this summer if they keep hold of him. He has caps for Denmark now as well.

The time to sign him would have been in January 2024 when he'd only played a few games for their first team. Or, probably scouted and signed him straight from Denmark. The club probably didn't think he was good enough or we had better prospect in Amass and Alvarez. They probably weren't focusing on a player better equipped as a WB either. This somewhat highlights the biggest weakness in the recruitment strategy at this time, both for the first team and youth teams. The emphasis was more on technical quality, whereas in the EPL every team is getting stronger and faster, but still with technically proficient players.
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Why is that the case for Dorgu but not all of those players I listed before they were signed?

Kerkez was known as a good player in the Netherlands with 37 games for Alkmaar - more than Dorgu has played

Estupinan was playing well in la liga for Villarreal and was linked with United, he had played played in la liga for Osasuna before that. He'd had 63 starts in La Liga and 28 times he had come on as a sub.

Robinson had started 90 games in the championship with 4 subs

Ait Nouri had less gametime before Wolves signed him, with just 18 starts and 5 subs but he was known as a good player in France before Wolves signed him
 
groovyalbert said:
Hmmm agree to disagree on this one then.
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Fair enough.

I do think we will see more and more of these types of deals, whereby clubs move lads on to meet various financial regulations, but include buy back clauses so as not to shut the door completely.
 
groovyalbert said:
Hmmm agree to disagree on this one then.
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Why negotiate buyback clauses (which lead to a lower initial fee) if you're too worried about the big scary Bournemouth fans laughing at you and calling you amateurish when you trigger it?

Were Real Madrid amateurs for re-signing Joselu, Morata, or Carvajal after they sold them?
 
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