Patrick Dorgu | United in talks

But player valuations aren't based solely on goals/assists. And he's played mostly as a LB.

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This season hes mostly played as a winger and has 3 goals and 1 assist. 8 games right wing, 2 as a 10, 1 on the left.

7 at fullback with 5 left, and once at left wingback and 2 right back

Also 1 game marked as MR which I havent been able to match up with Lecce's formations used this season from their page.

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And yes, a winger is mostly judged on how often they create and score goals
 
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This season hes mostly played as a winger and has 3 goals and 1 assist

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And yes, a winger is mostly judged on how often they create and score goals

So if I'm reading that correctly, he's scored 3 goals in 9 appearances while playing as an winger/forward for Lecce this season, despite LB usually being his default position. Any you think that's a bad sign?
 
Alvaro is a lot more limited in terms of physicality, with complaints about our physical levels being one of the consistent themes of Amorim's time here thus far.

I'm also not sure how signing Alvaro would work from a PSR perspective. Obviously selling him and buying him back itself does damage, but then you're presumably also giving up the sell on fee you'd get if he went to another club, which would also presumably be pure profit from a PSR perspective? That's quite a bit of financial downside for a player the club (also presumably) didn't think was that outstanding to begin with, even when playing a fullback role that didn't come with the same physical demands as wingback.
I’d much rather us sign a technically gifted wing back with strong defensive stats despite his frame, compared to a physical unit that has a hard time passing the ball in a straight line consistently.

Dorgu could end up being a bigger hit from a PSR perspective when we potentially have to sell him for half the price in a few years time, because he’s not good enough for a PL contending team.
 
So if I'm reading that correctly, he's scored 3 goals in 9 appearances while playing as an winger/forward for Lecce this season, despite LB usually being his default position. Any you think that's a bad sign?
It's tricky to measure his suitability via stats because he's not going to be a traditional fullback or winger. He needs to be able to use his left foot and get up and down the wing QUICK.
 
So if I'm reading that correctly, he's scored 3 goals in 9 appearances while playing as an winger/forward for Lecce this season, despite LB usually being his default position. Any you think that's a bad sign?

He has 3 goals and 1 assist in 20 games as you were told, with 11 and probably 12 in winger and #10 positions, 7 at fullback and 1 at left wingback.

12 in attack
7 fullback
1 wingback
 
Hey, I just saw some random vids of a player we’re linked with and whom I’ve never seen play before and I tell you: He’s shit! Not worth more than 10 million at the most. Our scouting department is crap, I tell you!
 
So if I'm reading that correctly, he's scored 3 goals in 9 appearances while playing as an winger/forward for Lecce this season, despite LB usually being his default position. Any you think that's a bad sign?

I'm not all-in on the idea of Dorgu as I think the team desperately needs someone to come in at LWB and make an instant impact. However, his versatility to play as a full-back and winger on either side would be extremely valuable in this system for squad depth.

To answer your question, from the little I have seen via Youtube, in the Dorgu vs Atalanta and AC Milan comps, he has been deployed at LB rather than RW. I read that as Lecce moving him to a more traditional LB position in the harder games to ensure they have more defensive stability. After checking WhoScored, that does seem to be a trend as when he has scored his goals they have been at RW against weaker sides like Parma or Verona, whereas against the bigger sides he is usually deployed at LB, LWB or RB.

If anything, I would read this as a positive rather than a negative, as it seems he is a key player for how Lecce set up tactically for a game and his coach clearly thinks he has the versatility to impact both ends of the pitch in the right games. I think it also naturally skews his performance ratings at LB/LWB lower, as he is often playing against the top 6 in those matches who Lecce understandably haven't got great results from as a team. So I don't think its as simple as saying he performs at a higher level at RW rather than LWB and therefore 'why are we signing him?', as you need to look at the games where he has been deployed in each position too.
 
He has 3 goals and 1 assist in 20 games as you were told, with 11 and probably 12 in winger and #10 positions, 7 at fullback and 1 at left wingback.

12 in attack
7 fullback
1 wingback

Here's what's happened in this conversation so far:

You claimed he mostly played as a winger. It was pointed out to you that this is incorrect. So you then shifted the goalposts to him mostly playing as a winger this season. You then said wingers are mostly judged on creating/scoring goals. It was pointed out to you that as a winger he's scored 3 in 9. So you then shifted goalposts to include returns in all positions, even ones which aren't mostly judged on creating/scoring.

This is a very silly argument to make when you could instead just admit you didn't realise he mostly played as a LB and that his numbers when playing as a winger were that good. Nobody is expecting you to know everything about a player from Lecce, it's okay to be wrong.
 
But player valuations aren't based solely on goals/assists. And he's played mostly as a LB.

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I had a look at Lecce's setup and it seems the manager mixes up his selection a lot. Dorgu sometimes is shifted to right wing when either their more experienced left back (Gallo) starts or when their winger (Pierotti) is left out. There have been times though where Dorgu is played right wing and the sub made is Pierotti on for Gallo and then Dorgu shifts back to left back. I think this is solely dependent on the managers choice for the game they're playing and players available. Either way I think given he can play both LB and on the wing is a good sign for someone we want to play as a wing back. He could potentially play this role on either side, although being left footed he's better suited to the left.
 
Has the stock of Harry Amass fallen completely? People were calling for him to start games last season due to Shaw's absence and now we are are signing players in his position and age from Paraguay while also pursuing Dorgu.

Is Amass now one we will look to sell for profit too, or is he not up to it?
 
Has the stock of Harry Amass fallen completely? People were calling for him to start games last season due to Shaw's absence and now we are are signing players in his position and age from Paraguay while also pursuing Dorgu.

Is Amass now one we will look to sell for profit too, or is he not up to it?
After pre season I thought it was evident that he wasn't physically ready. Maybe they are waiting to see how he progresses, but a loan is likely for him at some point.
 
Here's what's happened in this conversation so far:

You claimed he mostly played as a winger. It was pointed out to you that this is incorrect. So you then shifted the goalposts to him mostly playing as a winger this season. You then said wingers are mostly judged on creating/scoring goals. It was pointed out to you that as a winger he's scored 3 in 9. So you then shifted goalposts to include returns in all positions, even ones which aren't mostly judged on creating/scoring.

This is a very silly argument to make when you could instead just admit you didn't realise he mostly played as a LB and that his numbers when playing as a winger were that good. Nobody is expecting you to know everything about a player from Lecce, it's okay to be wrong.

He has mostly played as a winger this season.

I dont know about last season, I certainly wasnt following him. I did bring up his overall stats including last season. I dropped that because again I dont know where he played. So yes that was my mistake.

However, he has still as I said played as a winger mostly this season. I have told you each of the different attacking positions he has played and shown that they outnumber being picked as a fullback

And he still has 3 goals and 1 assist from 12 games picked as a winger or a #10

You not liking it doesnt change it. You arent important
 
After pre season I thought it was evident that he wasn't physically ready. Maybe they are waiting to see how he progresses, but a loan is likely for him at some point.
Thanks. Would this be a loan with a view to him gaining experience to hopefully make it at United in the long term? Or do you think a loan to put him in the shop window?
 
Here's what's happened in this conversation so far:

You claimed he mostly played as a winger. It was pointed out to you that this is incorrect. So you then shifted the goalposts to him mostly playing as a winger this season. You then said wingers are mostly judged on creating/scoring goals. It was pointed out to you that as a winger he's scored 3 in 9. So you then shifted goalposts to include returns in all positions, even ones which aren't mostly judged on creating/scoring.

This is a very silly argument to make when you could instead just admit you didn't realise he mostly played as a LB and that his numbers when playing as a winger were that good. Nobody is expecting you to know everything about a player from Lecce, it's okay to be wrong.

I'm not even sure looking solely at numbers is the way to judge talents anyway. Taking Isak as an example (and that thread is an amusing read) when Newcastle signed him his output wasn't great but his qualities were obvious and look at him now.

If you want to find talent for a reduced fee you need to identify their abilities ahead of their productive seasons.
 
Thanks. Would this be a loan with a view to him gaining experience to hopefully make it at United in the long term? Or do you think a loan to put him in the shop window?
He's only 17 so that decision is down the line. Just concentrating on developing him the best we can.
 
Has the stock of Harry Amass fallen completely? People were calling for him to start games last season due to Shaw's absence and now we are are signing players in his position and age from Paraguay while also pursuing Dorgu.

Is Amass now one we will look to sell for profit too, or is he not up to it?
Supposedly Villa sniffing around Amas, he had been out injured but has come back and played for the U18s the other day, I think the concern with Amas is his build, he is quite slight, from what I have seen of him I would like for him to have been given some minutes, maybe instead of Malacia? but obviously the manager sees much more than any of us do....

I wonder with all of the youth prospects, has their introduction been in any way hampered by an expectation that established albeit poorly performing players like Antony, Casemiro, Malacia... must be played first, I hope not but then I look at Collyer compared to Casemiro this season and (injury aside) cannot see why he has not had minutes before now
 
Yea, 35 Million for a player that we expect to be a starter really isn't a lot of money these days.

Not going to pretend to know a lot about him but if we expect him to make the Left wingback role his own then it's an absolute no brainer. We need an athlete for that position and it sounds like he fits the bill..... Also, i'm sick of waiting for clubs like Brighton to sign players like this and double their value whilst we chase shite or unrealistic targets.
Oh come on, don’t be ridiculous, you can’t use our current places in the league as a stick to beat us with in terms of attraction, neither of the teams are where they should be

I can almost guarantee that if Dorgu went to Liverpool (who he has been linked with) people would have a very different opinion of him
Nothing ridiculous or weird in it. Obviously the prices have gone up but thats also down to clubs like us paying over the odds and seemingly incapable of evaluating fair realistic market values. The value of a player shouldn't be evaluated by his future role in the team, thats crazy. Player value should be down to ability and age. Add contract situation in as well. Everything else, future role in the team, suitability of the player in future system thats internal factors and should be kept as that. The guy seems to have a lot of potential and I'd be happy to bring him in but we have seen so many transfers that were doomed from the start only because of the fee. So lets not repeat that because "we want him so badly". Thats a bad position to be in. I'd be way more comfortable in the 20-25 region than 35. Happy to introduce performance based add-ons that make that sum rize above 30 or even 35 but that should be down to how he performs, not predicted just by him being better than some of the bad players we have right now.
 
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Supposedly Villa sniffing around Amas, he had been out injured but has come back and played for the U18s the other day, I think the concern with Amas is his build, he is quite slight, from what I have seen of him I would like for him to have been given some minutes, maybe instead of Malacia? but obviously the manager sees much more than any of us do....

I wonder with all of the youth prospects, has their introduction been in any way hampered by an expectation that established albeit poorly performing players like Antony, Casemiro, Malacia... must be played first, I hope not but then I look at Collyer compared to Casemiro this season and (injury aside) cannot see why he has not had minutes before now
Thanks, hadn't heard the Villa links. Definitely seems like there are enough doubts around Amass at the club if we are actively pursuing players in his position and age profile.

It definitely isn't the best environment for putting young players in at the moment, but if the coach doesn't think that the current first team can play his system then it would make sense to dip into the younger players to see if they can.
He's only 17 so that decision is down the line. Just concentrating on developing him the best we can.
Yea, didn't realise he was still just 17 too. But that makes the calls for him to start last season instead of now more silly.
 
just couple of posts above us mentioned Spurs got Udogie for 20m or so, same age and same league, Malacia was older and was a full international with the Dutch NT before we signed him and we got him for less than 20m, it's not that rare.

They also had to loan him back for a season, if Lecce got to keep Dorgu for another season they'd probably reduce the fee too.

Malacia we only got cheap because Lyon had agreed a fee and we swooped in last minute. In comparison it's a number of richer clubs after Dorgu and they'd all been told 40 million.

No one is arguing that bargains don't happen but 30 million is about the going rate for a young talented player these days it certainly isn't big money.
 
He has mostly played as a winger this season.

I dont know about last season, I certainly wasnt following him. I did bring up his overall stats including last season. I dropped that because again I dont know where he played. So yes that was my mistake.

However, he has still as I said played as a winger mostly this season. I have told you each of the different attacking positions he has played and shown that they outnumber being picked as a fullback

And he still has 3 goals and 1 assist from 12 games picked as a winger or a #10

You not liking it doesnt change it. You arent important

He's a 20 year old playing in the 17th placed team in Serie A, who only have 15 goals in 20 games. He scored 3 and assisted 1 of them. What exactly do you think his stats should look like?
 
Yeah, it's a bit strange.

He's a young fullback a lot of top clubs have been linked with, who we're trying to buy in January. And £30m+ has always been the figure I've seen speculated for him, even when it was teams like Liverpool being linked.

Yet some people have decided he should cost 10m, seemingly based on vibes.

We can call him full back or wingback or wingers, and I’m sure we are likely to play him as wingback. But we are signing him as wingback is irrelevant to how Lecce’s sporting director values him. Even if a club sign him as fullback it would be irrelevant because his value is based on what Lecce values him. Lecce’s sporting director’s values him as a winger so their £30m plus valuation is majority based on his talent and current ability as winger.

If we are still under ten Hag and we don’t play wingback but play winger, I cannot imagine how silly it will look to spend £30m plus on this guy as a winger. 3 goals and 1 assist so far this season, those numbers are similar to Elanga was at United and we sold him for £15m.

I think £20m - £25m max would be the right value for his ability as a winger.
 
They also had to loan him back for a season, if Lecce got to keep Dorgu for another season they'd probably reduce the fee too.

Malacia we only got cheap because Lyon had agreed a fee and we swooped in last minute. In comparison it's a number of richer clubs after Dorgu and they'd all been told 40 million.

No one is arguing that bargains don't happen but 30 million is about the going rate for a young talented player these days it certainly isn't big money.
I'd give you 40m or for someone like Girona's Gutierrez, or Kerkez or Ait'Nouri, established LBs playing in top leagues or top European competition, so these are the young and talented players who operate on a higher level than Lecce who were languishing in Italy's lower leagues for the a better part of the last decade.

Malacia we got cheap because we didn't offer more than what would Feyenoord would accept, and that's why no one fussed Malacia not working out, Dorgu is less prominent than Malacia at the time.
 
Good read but paying 35+5m for a player hugely inexperienced and not showing pedigree in the wingback role is madness.
Yea, total madness with the shape we are in. Agree on that. Need players who can bring stability before we start these sorts of signings.
 
Bottom line is we have to balance what we can spend against who is available, it would be nice to try and sign somebody who is more proven but in order to force such a sale in January would cost far more than the player is worth and far more than we can afford.

I like the look of Dorgu, but effectively we are putting a lot of expectation on the purchase of whoever comes in at LWB, the common consensus is that a LWB is one of the missing pieces, so if he or somebody else comes in and does not hit the ground running and have an immediate impact it will almost certainly be looked at askance.

Part of me does prefer the option of Alvaro Fernandez because at £16.7m there is a lot less at stake, part of me wishes that Kunkonki could get some minutes but the lad is only 16 (still looks every bit as good as Dorgu albeit at a lower level)
 
He's a 20 year old playing in the 17th placed team in Serie A, who only have 15 goals in 20 games. He scored 3 and assisted 1 of them. What exactly do you think his stats should look like?
He should have scored all 15 goals and assisted himself for them. avoid
 
I mean, that's just not true...?

You can judge certain aspects of a player based on just 1 match, or even just 1 action.

Why do you think Yoro was considered as the most talented CB prospect since probably van Dijk, by every top club around Europe, before he even played a full season in Lille's first team?

You could also tell Mainoo was ready to play on the highest level even before he made his debut vs Everton.

There are countless examples that disprove what you're claiming.

Firstly unless a player is a true generational talent it's incredibly naïve to judge them on one match or even just one action!

Secondly, who considered Yoro as the most talented CB prospect since probably van Dijk? Didn't we only get him because Madrid decided he wasn't worth £60million?

Of course there are some examples of players who go against what I'm saying as football isn't an exact science, but by and large these players are the exception rather than the rule.

As a rule the best way to judge a player is over a period of around 70 to 100 games at a good level to gauge their true level and potential.

So unless Dorgu is a generational talent then its far too early to tell if he's ready to play in the Premier League yet, especially for a team with high expectations.
 
I'd love it if we start just walking away from targets when the price gets silly. If we'd had that approach we wouldn't have signed Antony... or Mount... or Hojlund... Though we still would have signed Sancho.
We do, we walked away from Jarrad Branthwaite last summer.

It looks like what the guys who do the transfers now are doing is identifying more than one player that is suitable, and using that as a stick to beat the price down to what is reasonable.
 
He's a 20 year old playing in the 17th placed team in Serie A, who only have 15 goals in 20 games. He scored 3 and assisted 1 of them. What exactly do you think his stats should look like?

For £30 million or more lets say 6 or 7 goal involvements in his 12 matches in attacking positions. So a couple more.

£30 million shouldnt be spent unless its a standout player. If he's coming in for £18 million its another story.

Dwight McNeil has 6 in 13 for Everton who have scored 18 and are 16th placed. I dont really want us to sign him either but thats an example of player at a club in a similar position also being picked on the wing and having more than 4 goal involvements in 12 or 1 in 3.

Can you see why signing a player who mostly plays as a winger this season and doesnt have a lot of goals and assists might be a concern when weve only scored 27 goals ourselves this season? We've also wasted a huge amount of money. Is there something wrong with wanting that cycle to stop?
 
Whelmed. But works as a Malacia replacement (of we can get a him for a similar fee)

Quenda (RWB) is far more exciting. Especially for his age.
 
With the kids we have to give them time. You don’t get instant results with 18-22 year olds.
Yeah let’s see but the early signs seem to be more like a Rio type of defender, which isn’t a bad thing of course but we’re in desperate need of players with a different profile.