Pat vs EAP - Tactical Draft QF

Who created a better environment for their star player to shine?


  • Total voters
    21
  • Poll closed .

Šjor Bepo

Wout is love, Wout is life; all hail Wout!
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Messages
16,200
Team Pat

Sir Alex Ferguson:
Raul is so difficult to play against when he starts taking up the positions he did tonight. He always seems to be an outlet for them and we never contained that part. We know Zinedine Zidane and Luis Figo are great players but we could have handled that. Raul was very difficult. Real Madrid have bought some great players over the last few years but, at the moment, Raul is the best in the world.
Fernando Hierro:
He was not a 10 out of 10 in anything but he was an eight-and-a-half in everything

Out with the 4-4-1-1 from our last game, and in with a 4-3-3 with Raul as a false 9. Having led the line as a youngster when Zamarano was injured, Raul would pop up in that role sporadically throughout his career, notably at the business end of possibly his career-best season in 2000-01 after Morientes’ injury. He also starred playing behind Suker and Mijatovic in a three-pronged attack around 1998, and briefly in a similar role behind Morientes and Anelka. His role here can be considered something of a hybrid. With two blisteringly fast wide attackers who can play off the shoulder of the opposition defensive line, there’s little imperative for him to try to engage the centre backs as a back-to-goal bruiser. Instead, he can play to his strengths, namely his superb movement and creativity. He’s free to drift deep to link with the midfield and to create, or to prowl around the penalty area as he sees fit. As this excellent article by Jacob Steinberg states,
Raúl was a varied player, a contradiction of sorts. He could play in a withdrawn role as a creator, linking the play, and at times he was part of an ultra cerebral little and large partnership with Fernando Morientes, but he was somewhere in between a No9 and a No10. He wore different outfits for different occasions. He could be a fox in the box or he could prowl outside it.

Style: A quick tempo passing game, with the full backs supporting the attack whenever possible. Think early '90s Barca rather than Pep's Barca in terms of tempo, but don't tell Raul we're comparing them to Barcelona at all.

Defence: High defensive line and an aggressive pressing game. Boateng will tend to attack the first ball, with Koeman sweeping up behind him. Koeman to orchestrate the transitions when possible, either finding the front men early or else opting for the slower build up.

Midfield: A well-rounded midfield trio with plenty of attacking verve and energy. Haan as DM, Giles as the main orchestrator and Hassler as the main ball-carrier.

Attack: Raul is flanked by two extremely quick wide attackers, either of whom can play off the shoulder when our main man drops deep.

EHNGR-formation-tactics.png

Your-teamafasdfdasf-formation-tactics.png

Your-teamafasdfdasf-formation-tactics.png

Team Edgar


Central player

220px-Francescoli_Wanderers.JPG



"El Príncipe" Enzo Francescoli


Basic Wiki for the Philistine's:

One of the greatest players of Uruguay, Enzo was classy and elegantly stylish elite playmaker. An elegant, creative, and technically gifted attacking midfielder, who was also capable of playing as a second striker Francescoli was noted in particular for his control, grace, fluidity, dribbling skills, and ability on the ball. A two-footed playmaker, with excellent vision and an eye for goal from midfield, he was also known for his ability from set-pieces, and also had a penchant for scoring acrobatic goals from overhead kicks.

Specific Tactical Role:

In my team Enzo is the star man, the "Fantasista" and has a free role upfront. He is the primary playmaker and controls the game from the front.


Style/Formation:
3-4-3 Diamond / 3-3-1-3

Defensive Line:

Normal

Defensive Strategy:

Compact defensive unit with Stiles (who is comfortable as a CB for United) dropping back for support. Both Montero and Gentile are comfortable out wide and Picchi is a elegant sweeper marshalling the defence. In addition to Stiles, Cambiasso also adds to the defensive shield in from of the defence.

Midfield

A hardworking midfield anchored by the indomitable Nobby Stiles. A destroyer par excellence, his ability to sniff out attacks and hound dog opponents players needs no further introduction.

Estaban Cambiasso makes his way into the team in his preferred Left Midfielder role. Defensively sound his dynamism and passing ability will ensure free transition of the ball to Enzo/attack. Albertini mans the other side of the midfield diamond. With his brilliant passing range and hard working playing style he will aim to provide a constant supply of quick balls to Enzo/attack.

Attack:

Enzo sits atop the midfield diamond, the crown jewel of the team. Cambiasso/Albertini ensures a smooth transition and supply of balls from the deep. He has the dynamic trio of Eder-Cole-Muller playing with him. Eder and Muller operate as wide forwards. Both are comfortable in their flanks and will serve to stretch the defence for Enzo and/or will benefit from being at the end of some pinpoint passing from Enzo. Both are dynamic forwards who'll drop into spaces both centrally and out wide. They are selfless in pulling defenders out if position and opening for Enzo or running into a accurate pass and score themselves. Cole is the main target man who'll hold up defenders and provide the constant presence upfront. He's not just a in-the-box poacher, but his all round style will aim to score and create for others.
 
Last edited:
  • Draft matches would be decided based on who has crafted/built the more coherent and cohesive tactical set-up around his main star as opposed to who might win in a fantasy encounter. Hopefully, this paves way for interesting discussions on the set-ups themselves - delving deeper into the creation/evolution etc of said set-up - and the personnel fit.
  • Voters are asked to consider the XIs featured as 2 separate teams not like a classic game of football, and to consider to what extent the manager has succeeded in building around his central figure. This is not a fantasy match but a comparison of 2 tactical attempts.
  • Teams will be built and judged for best tactical fits rather then the quality of the team. First, team has to be perfectly built around the central figure, if both teams are very close then you look at the other specific pairings, good fits for the team etc. if the level is still close then you watch at quality of the individual players except of the central player.

good luck @Edgar Allan Pillow @Pat_Mustard
 
What a team from Pat:drool: but to be fair im biased as im weak on false nine formations....
Not sure if Raul was creative enough to be a proper false nine but with Giles and Hassler behind it should work even if my fears are correct. Also not the biggest fan of Boateng and Koeman partnership as i prefer mixed combo.

As for edgars team, nothing unexpected :D Crazy system that either would work spectacularly or fail spectacularly. Defensive wise it looks great, offensive wise i have some issues....first of all i dont know much about Eder apart that he has a great shoot. Lack of width and creativity is a bit worrying but maybe Enzo prefers that way? @antohan
 
As for edgars team, nothing unexpected :D Crazy system that either would work spectacularly or fail spectacularly. Defensive wise it looks great, offensive wise i have some issues....first of all i dont know much about Eder apart that he has a great shoot. Lack of width and creativity is a bit worrying but maybe Enzo prefers that way? @antohan

Eder operated without traditional wingers. He was a forward who drifted left wing and provided the width. Played with other playmakers and is a perfect fit for Enzo.

And its not like 3-4-3 is a crazy system. Been used successfully before.
 
@Pat_Mustard I'm not sure if false 9 is the best role for Raul tbh.

Can you explain a bit more your setup in attack? Is Giles the playmaker of the team, going by the write up and generally what is Raul's role in this set up - a mobile forward or also he is expected to share somehow the playmaking responsibility as a modern day false 9?
 
Eder operated without traditional wingers. He was a forward who drifted left wing and provided the width. Played with other playmakers and is a perfect fit for Enzo.

And its not like 3-4-3 is a crazy system. Been used successfully before.

Is there any footage of Eder?
Classic 343 is a normal system but this one without wingbacks and wingers with 2 inside forwards and a classic number 9 is not something you see often :)
 
Classic 343 is a normal system but this one without wingbacks and wingers with 2 inside forwards and a classic number 9 is not something you see often :)

Are you more concerned on 3-4-3 as a formation or Enzo's fit in it? ;)

As to your other point F9 is definitely not Raul's best use. It is quite innovative and I like that front 3 as a whole, but it's not something that'll get the best out of Raul. He has been used as AM/F9 only sparsely and was driven by injuries to rest of squad. As a fit for Raul, it is sub-optimal imo.
 
How are you providing the width @Edgar Allan Pillow or is it not part of your plan? Now both Montero and Gentile are lovely fits as side CBs but neither would be hugely natural with chalkdust on their boots stretching the game.
 
Finally some action after a slow start :D.

@Pat_Mustard I'm not sure if false 9 is the best role for Raul tbh.

Can you explain a bit more your setup in attack? Is Giles the playmaker of the team, going by the write up and generally what is Raul's role in this set up - a mobile forward or also he is expected to share somehow the playmaking responsibility as a modern day false 9?

Sure mate. Firstly, I think Careca was my first pick in the initial drafting so I understand any reservations about Raul playing through the middle without a No. 9.

Giles is the main playmaker/passer in that midfield, with Koeman and Hassler also doing their fair share of playmaking too.

An interesting bit I stumbled across from an interview with Morientes, ironically enough:

You were a brilliant No 9. Has that role changed today? How would you describe the `false 9'?

I don't believe in the `false 9'. No.9 is a specialist of a particular area. These days, the description of a No.9 has changed a lot because they are needed to move a lot. Fernando Llorente, Alvaro Negredo both fantastic and proven No 9s have had to move because of that change. In my time, there was a more defined No. 9.

Has that come from the Barcelona idea?

Rijkaard and Guardiola made changes in their tactics. They did away with the traditional No 9 and it led to success. The national team started following that too... That happened largely because of the changing characteristics of the players. The generation of players are much shorter and if you are marked tightly by defenders, it makes it that much more difficult to be a conventional No. 9. That's how the game has evolved

Now I don't fully agree with him but it is an interesting point that there's no absolute cut off point between normal No. 9 and false No.9, and its more a question of degrees. Raul doesn't quite have it in his locker to be playmaker supreme from that position like Cruyff, but he can and will drop deep to utilise his eye for a pass and just to make himself a nuisance to mark, so he can be considered a hyper-mobile forward I suppose. We've got two other players in Bene and particularly Claudio Lopez who can stay right up top to maintain team shape and stretch the defensive line. Raul is basically free to roam for openings wherever.
 
Are you more concerned on 3-4-3 as a formation or Enzo's fit in it? ;)

As to your other point F9 is definitely not Raul's best use. It is quite innovative and I like that front 3 as a whole, but it's not something that'll get the best out of Raul. He has been used as AM/F9 only sparsely and was driven by injuries to rest of squad. As a fit for Raul, it is sub-optimal imo.

Formation as i dont know enough about Enzo to judge in this situation so i probably wont vote either way, unless someone sells a good story :D
As for Raul, its irrelevant if he played there or not. The question is, are his talents a great match for that position/role.
 
Lots of love for that inventive Raul set-up.

What a team from Pat:drool: but to be fair im biased as im weak on false nine formations....
Not sure if Raul was creative enough to be a proper false nine but with Giles and Hassler behind it should work even if my fears are correct. Also not the biggest fan of Boateng and Koeman partnership as i prefer mixed combo.

As for edgars team, nothing unexpected :D Crazy system that either would work spectacularly or fail spectacularly. Defensive wise it looks great, offensive wise i have some issues....first of all i dont know much about Eder apart that he has a great shoot. Lack of width and creativity is a bit worrying but maybe Enzo prefers that way? @antohan

Cheers lads. I was reluctant to drop Barnes but I wanted to try something different and I really liked the look of this when I got to messing about on sharemytactics before the reinforcements.
 
offensive wise i have some issues....first of all i dont know much about Eder apart that he has a great shoot. Lack of width and creativity is a bit worrying but maybe Enzo prefers that way? @antohan

Eder had a lovely left foot and was equally capable of delivering great crosses, he frequently drifted out to the left flank and was capable of providing ample width for a wing-forward. Likewise, Muller was capable of providing ample width for a goalscoring wing-forward. Naturally the set-up could do with more width but as far as I'm concerned it tends more towards a a 4-3-3 with Picchi, Stiles reprising the dynamic that he had with Foulkes when he had to play CB for United at times.

I know EAP loves his unorthodox set-ups but he his side midfielders don't provide enough 'oomph' on the offensive front (put someone like Mendieta-Lerby there and it'd look great) and Cole isn't exactly the sort of centre-forward that I'd utilise for a 3-4-3 formation.
 
Edgar's team seems cramped on first viewing but I'm not so sure after looking into it a bit more.

I read quite a bit about Eder when doing the remake draft and I ended up going for Neymar to take his position I think.

He's an inside left forward more than anything else really so will provide the starting width on that side before carrying the ball inside.

Cambiasso is also known to play the LCM role quite well so can again stretch that side of the pitch.

Muller is tactically disciplined so whilst you might not be getting the best out of him asking him to keep his width on the right side he'll definitely do the job if needed and it's not about winning the game but getting the best out of Enzo.

Don't know enough about Albertini to comment on him.

As for Pats team Raul can play the main striker role dropping deep without being a false 9. Much like Zlatan did for us this season I wouldn't class him as a false 9 but he still dropped off often.
 
Are you more concerned on 3-4-3 as a formation or Enzo's fit in it? ;)

As to your other point F9 is definitely not Raul's best use. It is quite innovative and I like that front 3 as a whole, but it's not something that'll get the best out of Raul. He has been used as AM/F9 only sparsely and was driven by injuries to rest of squad. As a fit for Raul, it is sub-optimal imo.

He's actually featured as an AM for quite a long time. He played behind Suker-Mikatovic in 1996-97 and 1997-98, and then mostly behind Mijatovic-Morientes in 1998-99. Its as the main striker that he appeared more sporadically, but he's clocked up a reasonable amount of time there over the years.

On your team, I echo what others say about the severe lack of width. Cole in particular is going to be uncomfortable in that sort of congested set up, and that has knock on effects for Enzo. I also don't like Albertini in that RCM role in a diamond, as he doesn't look a good fit in terms of covering the wide areas defensively or providing any supplementary width in attack.
 
Two fine performances from 2001 with Raul leading the line:

Two goals vs Galatasary in the CL QF, to turn around the tie after a 3-2 defeat in the 1st leg:



Hat trick during an end of season beatdown of Alaves. Also, Figo's delivery :drool:

 
Finally some action after a slow start :D.



Sure mate. Firstly, I think Careca was my first pick in the initial drafting so I understand any reservations about Raul playing through the middle without a No. 9.

Giles is the main playmaker/passer in that midfield, with Koeman and Hassler also doing their fair share of playmaking too.

An interesting bit I stumbled across from an interview with Morientes, ironically enough:



Now I don't fully agree with him but it is an interesting point that there's no absolute cut off point between normal No. 9 and false No.9, and its more a question of degrees. Raul doesn't quite have it in his locker to be playmaker supreme from that position like Cruyff, but he can and will drop deep to utilise his eye for a pass and just to make himself a nuisance to mark, so he can be considered a hyper-mobile forward I suppose. We've got two other players in Bene and particularly Claudio Lopez who can stay right up top to maintain team shape and stretch the defensive line. Raul is basically free to roam for openings wherever.

Think the partnership between Careca and Raul was quite good myself to be honest. Raul excelled in different formations and was quite versatile forward. To me at his absolute best he was paired with Morientes and they formed a brilliant partnership a bit like Cole/Yorke if you like. Raul excelled with his link up game but not someone who would run the game or control the tempo. I agree that there is a fine line between a highly mobile 9 and a false 9. Probably you are using him a bit like I did with Eusebio before as a highly mobile all round forward who is flanked with two goalscoring wingers.

A bit like withdrawn striker is probably another description in your tactics? I agree with the mobile forward part so that's good use of him as well.

I could buy it either way mind, as he's capable of leading the line. Between this and in a 4-4-2, 4-4-1-1 where he's the second striker personally I'd choose the latter to have another direct goalscoring threat and to fully utilize his link up game.

Under Capello(1st term) from memories he was playing off Mijatovic and Suker, slightly to the left and a 19 years old Raul had a great season then and was pretty instrumental in the tail end of the season, scoring a brace against Espanyol which kept them at top.

With that being said Bene is a very good addition in this set up and him frequently cutting inside would form a good partnership up top with Bezsonov overlapping. Same on the left side where Cabrini gives you a lot of width and generally gives you a very fluid side.

In terms of shape I like your team a bit more as I have some issues with a bit cramped Edgar side, especially in attack. If you are using Hassler as a runner I'd probably have Raul withdrawn as a SS and put Careca on mate as it would bring him close to his absolute best.

All in all think your side as a setup is pretty good and Raul will also thrive in there.
 
Barca 92 and Biesla 3-3-1-3 come to mind as examples similar to my formation.
Think the formation pic somehow creates most of the issues. All of your attackers seems cramped into a space and that space is occupied by your star man.

Cambiasso also looks a bit off for me in this formation, not sure what he brings there especially when you had Junior(I think) already in the team.

Which "version" of Enzo are you using in this game? In his early 20's or 30's? Think this particular set up suits the early 30's Enzo more, tbh.
 
Think the partnership between Careca and Raul was quite good myself to be honest. Raul excelled in different formations and was quite versatile forward. To me at his absolute best he was paired with Morientes and they formed a brilliant partnership a bit like Cole/Yorke if you like. Raul excelled with his link up game but not someone who would run the game or control the tempo. I agree that there is a fine line between a highly mobile 9 and a false 9. Probably you are using him a bit like I did with Eusebio before as a highly mobile all round forward who is flanked with two goalscoring wingers.

A bit like withdrawn striker is probably another description in your tactics? I agree with the mobile forward part so that's good use of him as well.

I could buy it either way mind, as he's capable of leading the line. Between this and in a 4-4-2, 4-4-1-1 where he's the second striker personally I'd choose the latter to have another direct goalscoring threat and to fully utilize his link up game.

Under Capello(1st term) from memories he was playing off Mijatovic and Suker, slightly to the left and a 19 years old Raul had a great season then and was pretty instrumental in the tail end of the season, scoring a brace against Espanyol which kept them at top.

With that being said Bene is a very good addition in this set up and him frequently cutting inside would form a good partnership up top with Bezsonov overlapping. Same on the left side where Cabrini gives you a lot of width and generally gives you a very fluid side.

In terms of shape I like your team a bit more as I have some issues with a bit cramped Edgar side, especially in attack. If you are using Hassler as a runner I'd probably have Raul withdrawn as a SS and put Careca on mate as it would bring him close to his absolute best.

All in all think your side as a setup is pretty good and Raul will also thrive in there.

Good post. The only thing I'd really add is that I don't think he really favoured either side when he was playing off Mijatovic and Suker, but rather took up positions across the whole width of the pitch. Check out this masterclass in the Madrid derby from 1996-97:



Some highlights:

1:00 Arrives late at the edge of the penalty area to equalise
1:48 Nice reverse pass to Mijatovic on the right wing
2:03 Dribbling from deep
2:18 Gorgeous 2nd goal
3:20 Good back to goal play and then a great assist for Seedorf
4:40 Another fine assist for Victor

I was completely set on partnering Raul with a Morientes type classic No. 9 but as I dig deeper I'm less sure. The way he maintained his form in 2000-01 even when Morientes got injured and he led the line with Guti behind him, and his brilliance behind two strikers earlier in his career definitely raises questions for me.

Also, more as an aside than anything, when I look at some footage of the younger Raul I wonder if the creative aspect of his game got stymied somewhat as Real began the Galactico era and ended up with creative greats like Zidane, Figo and Beckham demanding their share of the ball.
 
Nice of Edgar to leave a link for those of us who are unaware of what set-pieces are

:lol: You learn something new every draft.

At the risk of appearing like a moaning bastard (which is exactly what I am in this case), hadn't we agreed that we were no longer updating the OP with any subs? I know it was discussed a few months ago but in fairness I can't remember if it was ever properly adopted.
 
:lol: You learn something new every draft.

At the risk of appearing like a moaning bastard (which is exactly what I am in this case), hadn't we agreed that we were no longer updating the OP with any subs? I know it was discussed a few months ago but in fairness I can't remember if it was ever properly adopted.

missed that :(
i threadmarked the sub anyways so i can remove the new picture if there is agreement we dont do that anymore its not a problem....
 
missed that :(
i threadmarked the sub anyways so i can remove the new picture if there is agreement we dont do that anymore its not a problem....

This was months back in the draft discussion thread so don't worry about it at all mate - it was probably never even adopted anyway. Just something that we should all probably decide on for subsequent drafts, as my feeling is that the current system is a bit too close to a do-over if the manager makes a mistake initially. But it wouldnt be fair to Edgar to remove the picture now, and I'm just being a moaning bollocks really :D

EDIT:

Chester made some very good posts around the issue, with this being one of them:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/next-draft-idea-discussion.403961/page-50#post-19695871
 
Last edited:
That's better. Not sure why Edgar put Enzo behind 3 offensive players in the first place.

Muller and Eder were operating as wingers/wide forwards. I mentioned in OP that they'll stretch the defence for Enzo to score. I don't see them as goal poachers waiting for service from Enzo.

Think the formation pic somehow creates most of the issues. All of your attackers seems cramped into a space and that space is occupied by your star man.

Cambiasso also looks a bit off for me in this formation, not sure what he brings there especially when you had Junior(I think) already in the team.

Which "version" of Enzo are you using in this game? In his early 20's or 30's? Think this particular set up suits the early 30's Enzo more, tbh.

Doubt a formation pic could have so much influence, esp with most voters being regular drafters with just 1 scan voter. Eder and Muller are there to stretch the play. I do not know how a team with them in front can be considered 'cramped'. Both are intelligent footballers and will roam all over their flanks moving wide, dropping deep and making runs. Only Cole will serve as reference in the box and he too is a complete forward able to score as well as assist. Static or cramped are probably the last words I'd use to describe this attack.
 
Muller and Eder were operating as wingers/wide forwards. I mentioned in OP that they'll stretch the defence for Enzo to score. I don't see them as goal poachers waiting for service from Enzo.



Doubt a formation pic could have so much influence, esp with most voters being regular drafters with just 1 scan voter. Eder and Muller are there to stretch the play. I do not know how a team with them in front can be considered 'cramped'. Both are intelligent footballers and will roam all over their flanks moving wide, dropping deep and making runs. Only Cole will serve as reference in the box and he too is a complete forward able to score as well as assist. Static or cramped are probably the last words I'd use to describe this attack.

Muller's a good crosser but it's not his natural game to stay close to the touchline, nor does he have the dribbling to effectively man a flank on his own. He'd need support from the full back or supplementary width from midfield, and neither Gentile as RCB or Albertini as RCM looked convincing choices to provide that.
 
Muller and Eder were operating as wingers/wide forwards. I mentioned in OP that they'll stretch the defence for Enzo to score. I don't see them as goal poachers waiting for service from Enzo.
A strange choice of wingers then
 
A strange choice of wingers then
Muller's a good crosser but it's not his natural game to stay close to the touchline, nor does he have the dribbling to effectively man a flank on his own. He'd need support from the full back or supplementary width from midfield, and neither Gentile as RCB or Albertini as RCM looked convincing choices to provide that.

We wanted to get the best of Enzo, i.e a #10 with scoring ability. So rather than pure supporting wingers, we'ge gone for hybrid wide forwards who can both stretch for Enzo and get on the end of his crosses. The purpose is not to touchline hug, but to interact with Enzo, support him to score and to benefit from his crosses. You can have Eder/Muller stretching wide with Enzo moving up and/or Enzo dropping back and one of them making runs centrally.
 
While i appreciate the creative change Im not seeing the benefit of benching Careca and Barnes which were my favorite aspects. Really feel Pats first round tactic worked much better in maximizing Raul

Really like the use of Donadoni with Enzo
 
Last edited:
Muller and Eder were operating as wingers/wide forwards. I mentioned in OP that they'll stretch the defence for Enzo to score. I don't see them as goal poachers waiting for service from Enzo.



Doubt a formation pic could have so much influence, esp with most voters being regular drafters with just 1 scan voter. Eder and Muller are there to stretch the play. I do not know how a team with them in front can be considered 'cramped'. Both are intelligent footballers and will roam all over their flanks moving wide, dropping deep and making runs. Only Cole will serve as reference in the box and he too is a complete forward able to score as well as assist. Static or cramped are probably the last words I'd use to describe this attack.

With Donadoni it's a lot better as Eder and Muller would naturally tend to cut in and with no overlapping full backs it is congested area IMO.

Donadoni on the right wing gives you a runner and natural winger who can stretch the flank and leave space for Enzo in the middle.

Still it looks like your playing the later more classic Enzo in this game or?
 
:lol: You learn something new every draft.

At the risk of appearing like a moaning bastard (which is exactly what I am in this case), hadn't we agreed that we were no longer updating the OP with any subs? I know it was discussed a few months ago but in fairness I can't remember if it was ever properly adopted.
We had implemented that, yes. We certainly stuck to it in the Bamboozle draft.
 
It seems both managers may have made their team poorer. EAP certainly had a better setup in his first game.

With Pat it really depends on what sort of frontline you prefer for Raúl, but his defence and midfield look stronger. I'd probably ditch Piojo and, with Cabrini left, play Raúl-Careca with Raúl at inside left and free to roam left or centre.