Passers from the deep

giorno said:
Pogba hardly ever played in a midfield 2 either, except early on for France.

And unless i missed something, nobody was suggesting he should be deployed as a DM

Btw: all of those guys could absolutely play in a midfield 2, and have in fact. The fit is about players and role, not formation
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For example, Pogba played the whole Euro 2016 in a midfield 2 ( except the first half against the swiss and the first half against the irish ). In 7 seven games he played 6 games in a midfield 2. He also played in a midfield 2 during the world cup qualifiers. Keep in mind that he earned his first cap in march 2013 so it isn't early on...

And since his come back here, he played half of our game in a midfield 2 too.

He played more games in a midfield 2 for us than KDB, Eriksen and Modric combined in all their careers.

And yeah you missed the post that I have quoted. Too bad you can't read between the lines.

We are obviously asking a lot of things from Pogba that we don't ask for others midfielders and not because he can do more but because he's black. And if you ask them to be fair, they speaks nonsense like Pogba needs more freedom than others midfielders, we shouldn't build a team around him, we should stop the excuses bla bls bla...what a joke !

I can understand Deschamps. France mainly produces the same type of midfieders ( Kante, Matuidi, Sissoko, Doucouré, Bakayoko...hard workers ) so Pogba has no choice, he should sacrifies his style for the nation. If Pogba doesn't distribute from deeper, the team can't work. That's why, when he doesn't play, France lose against every single decent opposition ( Spain march 2018, Netherlands september 2018 etc ).

But Manchester United isn't a country but the richest club in the world. The poll of players is larger...if you really want a DLP, you can sign him.
 
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Pogba played a lot from the deep in Mourinho's 4-2-3-1 last year. He was part of the two with Matic. He didn't do badly at all.

Also he plays in a deeper role for France with Griezmann in front of him. Although Matuidi also helps from the left and he has Kante in the middle. Whether him and Fred can play in 2-man, it deepend on the opposition. I'm sure it'll be fine against lesser teams but might struggle with possession against the better teams.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Unfortunately nobody else in out midfield/defence can run the game to supplement Pogba. We need someone

a) Who can control the game.
b) Someone who can bring the ball out of the defence and recycle possession.
c) Someone who can switch flanks, good at occasional long pass and switching flanks etc.
d) Good defensive shield.

In a ideal situation we can find all of this in a single player, but that'd be difficult/pricey.

Which combination of CB/CM/DM would tick all the boxes above?
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We dont currently have a right flank so you'd need that before c)
 
MadMike said:
Pogba played a lot from the deep in Mourinho's 4-2-3-1 last year. He was part of the two with Matic. He didn't do badly at all.

Also he plays in a deeper role for France with Griezmann in front of him. Although Matuidi also helps from the left and he has Kante in the middle. Whether him and Fred can play in 2-man, it deepend on the opposition. I'm sure it'll be fine against lesser teams but might struggle with possession against the better teams.
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Yes he did. Defensively he was caught out often.

He has done well deeper for France at the world cup, but that was for a short period and he doesnt seem to show the same hunger playing for us in a deep role. He doesnt have a lot of interest when we dont have the ball. For example the first goal Barcelona scored against us, Pogba is the furthest player up the pitch and makes the least effort of all of our players to get back. Martial, Rashford and Lingard all run back more than he does in that move where we concede.
 
P-Nut said:
Strangely Pereira has both of those skills and still can't make it here.
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He does indeed. Plus, what people forget about players in Pereira's position is that they come good later in their careers.

For example, Scholes was more of a forward / attacking midfielder in his 20s. Xavi was an amazing talent in central midfield but he truly become the great player from 2006 onwards. You rarely hear about ball-playing central midfielders being the best in their position before 23-24.

I think we should give Pereira another loan and have patience with him. When I see him this season, he been frustrating but he's a baby in his position. Maybe even younger than what Rashford is as an attacker. Being a central midfielder is more about the mind than physical attributes such as pace and strength. This is why some 23-25 year old midfielder today might still be playing at high level - long after the likes of Rashford have hung their boots up.

I think this is why we should be patient with these types of players when they are young (under 24).
 
Jib said:
Pogba played the whole Euro 2016 in a midfield 2 ( except the first half against the swiss and the first half against the irish ). In 7 seven games he played 6 games in a midfield 2.
And since his come back here, he played half of our game in a midfield 2 too.

He played more games in a midfield 2 for us than KDB, Eriksen and Modric combined in all their careers.
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Heh, check out Modric actually. Between Spurs and Croatia i'm pretty sure he has Pogba beat in that regard

And yeah you missed the post that I have quoted. Too bad you can't read between the lines.
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Can't I? Help me understand then. Because I really don't see it

We are obviously asking a lot of things from Pogba that we don't ask for others midfielders and not because he can do more but because he's black. And if you ask them to be fair, they speaks nonsense like Pogba needs more freedom than others midfielders, we shouldn't build a team around him, we should stop the excuses bla bls bla...what a joke !
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Now i'm getting confused. By "we" you mean caf?

Still, it's...weird. i mean, he is outrageously talented and capable of doing a lot of things at a high level. Your team does struggle a lot when he doesn't play well, mostly because of the lack of quality around him. He gets unfairly criticized, and i've no doubt the color of his skin factors into this. Particularly with comments about his purported attitude or life style off the pitch.

But in this case? I dunno. I mean, the OP is specifically about signing players to complement Pogba, i don't see what part of that post lead you to that conclusion
 
giorno said:
Heh, check out Modric actually. Between Spurs and Croatia i'm pretty sure he has Pogba beat in that regard


Can't I? Help me understand then. Because I really don't see it


Now i'm getting confused. By "we" you mean caf?

Still, it's...weird. i mean, he is outrageously talented and capable of doing a lot of things at a high level. Your team does struggle a lot when he doesn't play well, mostly because of the lack of quality around him. He gets unfairly criticized, and i've no doubt the color of his skin factors into this. Particularly with comments about his purported attitude or life style off the pitch.

But in this case? I dunno. I mean, the OP is specifically about signing players to complement Pogba, i don't see what part of that post lead you to that conclusion
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KDB played as an attacking midfielder in Genk, Chelsea, Germany and early on with City. It's only with Guardiola that he started to play in the midfield and with Laporte, Fernandinho etc he doesn't need to be the passer from the deep too much. With the belgium , he still plays as an attacking midfielders. I don't even think that he played 10 games in a midfield 2 in his whole career.

I also doubt that Modric and Eriksen also played a lot of games in a midfield 2 even if they are more natural midfielder than KDB who player a lot on the wing or SS position before meeting Guardiola.

The problem with Pogba is that if you ask for players to help him, you are critized. He should be the DLP, the destroyer, the box to box and also the AM because he's gifted but also tall and black. If you think that he should be treated like KDB, Modric, Eriksen etc with a ball playing CB ( Laporte, Ramos, Alderweireld ), a destroyer ( Fernandinho, Casemiro, Wanyama ) and another midfielder good on the ball ( Silva, Kroos, Alli...) you are searching excuses for him and we shouldn't build the midfield around him because the top players doesn't need that much.

And if you say that our passing from the deep sucks like in this thread, some people would directly talk about Pogba because he's big and black so we don't need to look for a ball-playing CB or a decent DM, Pogba is here so he should be there and pass from the deep...who cares if we can use him to make the finals passes or scoring goals ? We can buy another AM like Isco or Bruno Fernandes...it's better to have Pogba in front of the defense instead of close to the opponent defense because he's big and black huh

Just look at the first reply in this thread if you don't believe me.
 
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Brozovic
Rabiot
Aouar
N'Dombele
Alan
Rodrigo

Remo Freuler
de Roon
(these 2 play CM next to each other for Atalanta)

William Carvalho
Winks
Hojberg
Ismael Bennacer
Ruben Neves
Marc Roca
Maxime Lopez
Grenier
Diego Demme
Tameze

These are all the players who are under 29 years old, dont play for
a top club (other than Rabiot who is available for free) and make
more passes on average per game than Fred,
and don't play a more advanced role than another midfielder in their team.

Partey averages the same as Fred (55 passes) per game, but Fred is at
67 per 90 minutes which is the same as N'Dombele and Modric.
 
Jib said:
Just look at the first reply in this thread if you don't believe me.
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Yeah, I get everything else, it's just this that i don't

This is the whole back and forth

Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Unfortunately nobody else in out midfield/defence can run the game to supplement Pogba. We need someone

a) Who can control the game.
b) Someone who can bring the ball out of the defence and recycle possession.
c) Someone who can switch flanks, good at occasional long pass and switching flanks etc.
d) Good defensive shield.

In a ideal situation we can find all of this in a single player, but that'd be difficult/pricey.

Which combination of CB/CM/DM would tick all the boxes above?
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haram said:
Regardless, Pogba still needs to contribute in deeper areas and help with build up because he is fully capable and has the talent to do it. We do not need to "free him".
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Edgar Allan Pillow said:
He will. He'll play his usual midfield to attack link. Start attacks and make late runs into the box. But the less time he spends in front of our own defence, the more we use him wisely. Anyway this is not about Pogba.

Point was we need to supplement him with other players who can run the game in case some opponent decides to man-mark Pogba for example.
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haram said:
Yes, we do I agree with that. I don't want people saying that he shouldn't be in these zones or not defending though. Hopefully we are done with that bollocks narrative.
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I just don't see which part of that lead you to that conclusion
 
Paul Pogba is never going to be our Gerrard or Keane. He's not a player who'll dig deep regularly and relentlessly to drive the team forwards. I'm not saying he can't do it, he can; he just doesn't have the mentality to do it regularly.

He's wonderfully talented and world class, but needs other top players around him to get the best out of him consistently. When teams box off Pogba we have no creativity. This is why we need other creative outlets in the team, to provide an alternative outlet so teams cannot afford the resource required to mark Pogba out of the game.

Just look at this season, when Lingard was in form and creating, Pogba looked unstoppable. We need a CB who can start attacks, a CM who can create chances and quickly move the ball forward, we need a RB who can cross and a RW who is a genuine goal threat.

Our team is not as good as it could be. The sum of the parts is much better than the whole (currently). Key to this is our unbalanced shape (no rhs) and the lack of creativity in the team.
 
Jib said:
Eriksen, Modric, KDB etc aren't doing that but Pogba should do it because he's big and black, huh ?
Since we have this tall black midfielder, we shouldn't buy a decent DM and a ball-playing CB like the others big clubs, I'm right ? ;)
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Go read what I actually said before making a post like this.
 
Ashley Young gets racist abuse on social media but apparently you are racist if you think Pogba should play from a deeper position. Not surprised one bit who came out with that nonsense.
 
If you ask me, Pogba is more like Kroos in the deep role but with more dribble, he must keep it simple. Pogba is a special case, he could play any role as such as B2B, advanced midfielder or deep-lying midfielders, it's rare as very few midfielders are capable of doing like that even with both feet where Pogba is damn good when passing with weak foot.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
a) Who can control the game.
b) Someone who can bring the ball out of the defence and recycle possession.
c) Someone who can switch flanks, good at occasional long pass and switching flanks etc.
d) Good defensive shield.

In a ideal situation we can find all of this in a single player, but that'd be difficult/pricey.

Which combination of CB/CM/DM would tick all the boxes above?
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Nope, couldn't think of a single player that can do all of that.. except Verratti, but doubt he's interested in joining us.

:nervous: Can't say for sure if players from other clubs joining us will solve it, so instead I'll just contribute to the thread with the players we got.

Players we have:

a) control the game is basically controlling the tempo of the game = quicken up or slow things/plays down, and this needs good ability in possession and reading the flow of the game -- Herrera at his best (not sure if he can still do it, showed this ability of his when he's playing as holding CDM 2 seasons ago). Just him.. and the two exs (Carrick and Blind).

b) i) bring ball out of defense (aka carry) -- Pogba and Lindelof (also Pereira should be able to do it).
b) ii) recycle possession -- Herrera
++ iii) keeping possession -- Herrera, McTominay and Shaw
+++ iv) transitioning possession upfield -- Herrera
++++ v) ball retention -- Pogba, McTominay and at his best -> Matic (Pereira showed glimpse of it but not convincing, maybe he'll improve it future seasons).
+++++ vi) passing support/options -- Fred and McTominay

c) i) switch flanks -- Pogba (but he's not doing it consistently), and Pereira should be able to do it.
c) ii) long pass (to the front) -- Pogba and Andreas Pereira (yeah Pereira showed it early of this season when he's playing as CDM).
++ iii) building up attacks from the back -- Herrera and Fred
+++ iv) receiving from the back -- Herrera, Fred and Matic

d) i) defensive shield -- McTominay and at his best -> Matic
++ ii) supporting defense -- Fred and Pogba (seriously Pogba can help defend well, only if he's motivated to do it, he showed it plenty of times).
+++ iii) screening defense -- Herrera, Fred and McTominay​

*didn't include Lingard and Mata, who definitely can easily be in this list, but they're not showing what they can do this season, so omitted.
*included defenders (Shaw and Lindelof) since they help the midfield.

--

What we're lacking are players that can control the tempo and recycling+keeping+transitioning possession well at the back since Herrera is likely leaving or even if he stay, the option is so lacking.

If we're considering budget and the potential difficulty of getting top players who will cost high,
then since we got McT and Fred who provided a lot of those already, and Pogba definitely who if he'll be consistent will almost solve everything, with Pereira whom if he'll improve will provide a good backup option, the target gets broken down to simply two missing options. Didn't include Matic and Herrera for below.

McTominay -- defense, support and retention.
Fred -- build-up, receive and support.
Pereira -- passing, carry? and switch?
Pogba -- passing, switch, retention, carry and support.

Player ??? --- tempo control! missing
Player ??? --- possession! missing​

But then controlling tempo is a difficult rare skill, so at best we should just focus on getting a midfielder who are good at possession.

The player doesn't necessarily have to be a fellow CM or CDM. A CB who can control and direct possession play at the back like a leading general, or a CAM/false WG/false ST who can drop deep to play possession can works wonder just like how Mata and Lingard used to do season before (now they're so bad at doing it, no idea why, but before it works). And the missing jigsaw need not be an expensive one, just as long as he can make our midfield functional to at least almost the fullest.
 
deafepl said:
If you ask me, Pogba is more like Kroos in the deep role but with more dribble, he must keep it simple. Pogba is a special case, he could play any role as such as B2B, advanced midfielder or deep-lying midfielders, it's rare as very few midfielders are capable of doing like that even with both feet where Pogba is damn good when passing with weak foot.
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Pogba is more of a no 10 cum box-box midfielder. he's in between the two roles.

He's basically in between a creative box-box midfielder who can operate from deep, ala Yaya Toure but doesn't have Yaya's stamina/driving runs and a no 10 but doesn't have the one touch skill, nimbleness and movement, reminiscent of no 10 players.

However, what he's not is a playmaker. He doesn't have the spatial awareness, the movement nor the quick smart thinking/speed of thought etc to set the tempo in the midfield. He's always had Pirlo and Marchiso to do that for him while he was at juventus. I could recall how abject he looked in the absence of Marchiso in the Copa Italian final match between juventus and AC Milan. It was no difference from how he looked when Pirlo already left and Marchiso was out injured at the start of the season. He only became better after Marchiso returned from his injury lay off.

No doubt that Pogba would play better with a playmaker in the team.
 
Ekeke said:
Brozovic
Rabiot
Aouar
N'Dombele
Alan
Rodrigo

Remo Freuler
de Roon
(these 2 play CM next to each other for Atalanta)

William Carvalho
Winks
Hojberg
Ismael Bennacer
Ruben Neves
Marc Roca
Maxime Lopez
Grenier
Diego Demme
Tameze

These are all the players who are under 29 years old, dont play for
a top club (other than Rabiot who is available for free) and make
more passes on average per game than Fred,
and don't play a more advanced role than another midfielder in their team.

Partey averages the same as Fred (55 passes) per game, but Fred is at
67 per 90 minutes which is the same as N'Dombele and Modric.
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Left out Ruiz & Allan. Perhaps because you class Napoli as a big club as opposed to Atleti & Inter (Rodri & Brozo made your list).

Looks like you've missed Wylan Cyprien & Jonas Martin from Ligue 1.

In any case, nice list!
 
Tielemans seems to be getting good reviews. Another assist today. Still only 21. Is he worth a look?
 
Leftback99 said:
Tielemans seems to be getting good reviews. Another assist today. Still only 21. Is he worth a look?
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Tielesman looks pretty good but isn't he still a Monaco player? I think Monaco underutilized him by mostly deploying him in a 2-man midfield. He's no high energetic Bakayoko or whatever they thought he was. He's look his best in a 3-man midfield for Leicester so far, especially alongside a much mobile Maddison with whom he can play off and vice versa. Having Ndidi behind them also help.
 
sideshow_bob said:
Left out Ruiz & Allan. Perhaps because you class Napoli as a big club as opposed to Atleti & Inter (Rodri & Brozo made your list).

Looks like you've missed Wylan Cyprien & Jonas Martin from Ligue 1.

In any case, nice list!
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I had Allan but as "Alan" near the top. Ruiz plays further forward than Alan so I didnt include him. All those players are either the lone deepest midfielder or play right next to another player in a 2.
 
Kaglish10 said:
Tielesman looks pretty good but isn't he still a Monaco player? I think Monaco underutilized him by mostly deploying him in a 2-man midfield. He's no high energetic Bakayoko or whatever they thought he was. He's look his best in a 3-man midfield for Leicester so far, especially alongside a much mobile Maddison with whom he can play off and vice versa. Having Ndidi behind them also help.
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Even better. That means we can get him cheaper, English club demand very high fees
 
Kovacic is one of those players who could suddenly become really top drawer next season. It's clear this season he's repairing destroyed confidence.

I think he'd be well worth a punt if Chelsea were not allowed to sign him.
 
Champagne Football said:
Kovacic is one of those players who could suddenly become really top drawer next season. It's clear this season he's repairing destroyed confidence.

I think he'd be well worth a punt if Chelsea were not allowed to sign him.
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Agreed he looks good.

We already have plenty of midfielders who can recycle possession and keep the ball moving. What we lack is someone who can spot that pass through the lines as soon as it becomes available. We do have players making runs but so often the midfield take too long to spot it and the chance to make the pass is gone. The deep sitting tactics don't help but even without that we're not great at it.
 
11101 said:
Agreed he looks good.

We already have plenty of midfielders who can recycle possession and keep the ball moving. What we lack is someone who can spot that pass through the lines as soon as it becomes available. We do have players making runs but so often the midfield take too long to spot it and the chance to make the pass is gone. The deep sitting tactics don't help but even without that we're not great at it.
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I think there's a difference between the recycling possession midfielders you're describing and genuine passing midfielders who are great at keeping possession. For example, McTominay would be the latter because he keeps it simple and knows his limitations. Someone like Scholes, Xavi, Modric, etc... are players who retain possession by being a constant possession magnet because they're so good on the ball, break defensive lines, and have the ability to directly contribute to the attack.

We don't have that kind of player at United. I think Gomes has that potential, but other than that, we need to have that kind of player.
 
Champagne Football said:
Kovacic is one of those players who could suddenly become really top drawer next season. It's clear this season he's repairing destroyed confidence.

I think he'd be well worth a punt if Chelsea were not allowed to sign him.
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Not jumping on the bandwagon here, sorry. I remember watching him at Madrid and his offball movement and pressure intensity was quite underwhelming. Not much difference at Chelsea either. He's quite good on the ball, though.
 
André Dominguez said:
Not jumping on the bandwagon here, sorry. I remember watching him at Madrid and his offball movement and pressure intensity was quite underwhelming. Not much difference at Chelsea either. He's quite good on the ball, though.
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At Madrid decent players can look garbage but look much better elsewhere. Robben, Bale, Khedira. I guess he was never getting in that Midfield of Modric, Kroos, Casemiro but going by the player who starred at Inter - you'd have to think that once he rebuilds his confidence that he might just become a solid PL top 6 player.
Atletico Madrid are desperately trying to sign him and Diego Simeone is great for spotting struggling players who he can get back on track.
Possibly can turn out to be comparable to Lucas Moura, when you remember how average he looked when Tottenham first signed him, but now that the confidence is back he looks very impressive.
 
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Depends on how we are going to play but Neves would be perfect for that role. If we are going to play a proper defensive mid then Partey would be a great signing. I also like Doucoure.
 
In Rainbows said:
I think there's a difference between the recycling possession midfielders you're describing and genuine passing midfielders who are great at keeping possession. For example, McTominay would be the latter because he keeps it simple and knows his limitations. Someone like Scholes, Xavi, Modric, etc... are players who retain possession by being a constant possession magnet because they're so good on the ball, break defensive lines, and have the ability to directly contribute to the attack.

We don't have that kind of player at United. I think Gomes has that potential, but other than that, we need to have that kind of player.
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I think being good at recycling possession is a given for any top level midfielder. What you have then is players who press, players who cover space, players who set tempo, creative midfielders etc.

We have plenty who press, we have a couple of creative players, but I don't see anyone who sets tempo and other than a rapidly declining Matic I'm not sure who covers space either. Fred has shown glimpses of passing between the lines but he's more of a pressing player and a long way off someone who can use his passing to set tempo.

I'm not sure what McTominay is going to become. I think it will be a Matic type player. Whatever it is, its not going to be that player we need who controls our play.
 
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