P-nut/Enigma vs Skizzo - Tactical Draft Final

Who created a better environment for their star player to shine?

  • Total voters
    28
  • Poll closed .
Šjor Bepo said:
Valcareggi felt that it would not be possible to field Italy's two most revered advanced playmakers at the time, Gianni Rivera and Sandro Mazzola alongside each other. He believed the two creative players to be incompatible with each other, due to the rivalrdy between their respective clubs, and as he felt that deploying both players alongside the forwards would offset the balance within the starting line-up, in particular as Rivera, unlike Mazzola, was not renowned for his athleticism or defensive work-rate. He therefore conceived the plan, which essentially consisted of Mazzola playing the first half of each match, whilst Rivera would play the second half.
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Very poetic ending to the draft :)

This final might go a similar way too. Mazzola with the upper hand in the first half but Rivera coming strong in the second. Haven't voted yet to see if this holds.

Have been voting for @Skizzo up till now, but this is very close, so will nitpick. Like some other posters, I'm not so sure about Alonso in this system. In fact, the pairing of Alonso and Robson seems different to me from Bedin/Tagnin and Suarez. It could work no doubt but Alonso seems a dodgy candidate for dealing with fast transitions.
 
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Honestly surprised people calling for Veron. I don't see Veron as a better fit in their system than Alonso. If people don't like Xabi because of fast transitions then I would say Coluna is the obvious choice rather than another playmaker like Veron. I just don't see Veron fitting well with Robson and Mazzola, maybe that's just just me. I can see the logic behind Coluna playing though and Coluna is just a better player than Veron anyway.
 
SirMattBugsby said:
Very poetic ending to the draft :)

This final might go a similar way too. Mazzola with the upper hand in the first half but Rivera coming strong in the second. Haven't voted yet to see if this holds.

Have been voting for @Skizzo up till now, but this is very close, so will nitpick. Like some other posters, I'm not so sure about Alonso in this system. In fact, the pairing of Alonso and Robson seems different to me from Bedin/Tagnin and Suarez. It could work no doubt but Alonso seems a dodgy candidate for dealing with fast transitions.
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Yeah, they are nothing alike but I guess it wasn't the task?

Bedin was amazing though :drool: I'm surprised that his performance against Eusebio in 1965 isn't talked about as one of the classics. Voronin would be a good impersonator of him.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
Honestly surprised people calling for Veron. I don't see Veron as a better fit in their system than Alonso. If people don't like Xabi because of fast transitions then I would say Coluna is the obvious choice rather than another playmaker like Veron. I just don't see Veron fitting well with Robson and Mazzola, maybe that's just just me. I can see the logic behind Coluna playing though and Coluna is just a better player than Veron anyway.
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Agree with you. Better Alonso than Veron.

Coluna, though, would be superb. Inspired choice!
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
Honestly surprised people calling for Veron. I don't see Veron as a better fit in their system than Alonso. If people don't like Xabi because of fast transitions then I would say Coluna is the obvious choice rather than another playmaker like Veron. I just don't see Veron fitting well with Robson and Mazzola, maybe that's just just me
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No - I agree. Well, more or less: Can't quite put my finger on it - and it's not that I'd consider it a bad fit as such. But I wouldn't go with that over the Alonso choice.

As for the choice of a playmaker in general, that's an obvious one. You don't have a proper, top level string puller in that team otherwise - Mazzola wasn't one himself, unlike his rival. So, you need that presence - well, you need one if you want a proper string puller, that is. And I think you do in this case.

Coluna wouldn't be a great fit with that in mind, different animal altogether. It has to be Veron or Alonso - and I'd go with Alonso myself - although, again, I certainly wouldn't have considered Veron a bad fit, far from it, it's just one of those things. Can't come up with any dazzling arguments for it at the moment - need more beer (and I really shouldn't).
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
Honestly surprised people calling for Veron. I don't see Veron as a better fit in their system than Alonso. If people don't like Xabi because of fast transitions then I would say Coluna is the obvious choice rather than another playmaker like Veron. I just don't see Veron fitting well with Robson and Mazzola, maybe that's just just me. I can see the logic behind Coluna playing though and Coluna is just a better player than Veron anyway.
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I find it surprising tbh. Alonso is pretty good at that and excelled in a counter attacking Real Madrid team. He can move the ball pretty fast, cover, recover, tackle and look for openings.

Not that he's bad at keeping possession either.

Just couple of examples:




basically it's a role that is his natural game. Of course his quality might be questioned but IMO he's one of the very best midfielders in the pool.

Coluna/Robson is a great pairing but it's something that would go better with Rivera rather than Mazzola, especially in 5-3-2.
 
SirMattBugsby said:
Coluna, though, would be superb. Inspired choice!
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He wasn't the sort who'd regularly ping long, raking passes out on the flanks, was he? More of an allrounder, surely? You have Robbo there, who's doing a lot of tracking, hounding and so forth defensively in addition to bombing forward– and with a trio at the back plus sound wingbacks, you don't need more “allrounding” as much as you need someone who can provide top level (long range) passing to instigate moves. Vasovic has been mentioned already, but he isn't a specialist passer like Alonso. Good at it and generally a libero type (or whatever you want to call it – he ventured forward some, started attacks, etc.) – but not quite there in terms of being the main source of the sort of instigation Alonso is tasked with providing as per the write-up.
 
It's very close, but I prefer Mazzola with wingers and not wing backs. People who can operate in front of him so that he can drop back in a free role. I don't see the same amount of interplay with wingbacks.

Alonso is perfect there. He pulled enough strings at Liverpool to fit in there comfortably.

My heart bleeds to have to vote for Skizzo in a final, but sadly it is so.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
Honestly surprised people calling for Veron. I don't see Veron as a better fit in their system than Alonso. If people don't like Xabi because of fast transitions then I would say Coluna is the obvious choice rather than another playmaker like Veron. I just don't see Veron fitting well with Robson and Mazzola, maybe that's just just me. I can see the logic behind Coluna playing though and Coluna is just a better player than Veron anyway.
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With a pretty narrow system id give an edge to Veron because you need someone who can play himself out of trouble when pressured, Veron can run the counter on his own not just use his passing skills like Xabi and that quality is quite important in a narrow system. He is more rounded, specially offensive wise and should compliment both team tactics and Mazzola better.
Xabi is better defensive wise and with long passes(not that Veron was much worse, also had a very good range) but with back 5 and Robbo in the middle there is no need for a proper DM like Xabi, at least not in my opinion.
 
harms said:
Yeah, they are nothing alike but I guess it wasn't the task?

Bedin was amazing though :drool: I'm surprised that his performance against Eusebio in 1965 isn't talked about as one of the classics. Voronin would be a good impersonator of him.
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:lol: What a nuisance! Of course I mean that in a good way.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
It's very close, but I prefer Mazzola with wingers and not wing backs. People who can operate in front of him so that he can drop back in a free role. I don't see the same amount of interplay with wingbacks.

Alonso is perfect there. He pulled enough strings at Liverpool to fit in there comfortably.

My heart bleeds to have to vote for Skizzo in a final, but sadly it is so.
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Don't worry, you can still vote against me in the second half :)
 
Chesterlestreet said:
No - I agree. Well, more or less: Can't quite put my finger on it - and it's not that I'd consider it a bad fit as such. But I wouldn't go with that over the Alonso choice.

As for the choice of a playmaker in general, that's an obvious one. You don't have a proper, top level string puller in that team otherwise - Mazzola wasn't one himself, unlike his rival. So, you need that presence - well, you need one if you want a proper string puller, that is. And I think you do in this case.

Coluna wouldn't be a great fit with that in mind, different animal altogether. It has to be Veron or Alonso - and I'd go with Alonso myself - although, again, I certainly wouldn't have considered Veron a bad fit, far from it, it's just one of those things. Can't come up with any dazzling arguments for it at the moment - need more beer (and I really shouldn't).
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Its a tricky thing the more I think about it because I think this being a comparison rather than a head-to-head match actually makes it tougher to think about. In a straight matchup we would have another angle to look at it from, but just comparing a tactic without an opponent is actually trickier than I first thought.

I can see the logic of wanting someone like Xabi/Veron that has that capacity to flip accurate long range passes out to the wings but then, they are using wingbacks and a narrow front three of Signori-Vieiri with Mazzola. So that leads me to think the long range wing passing of Xabi and Veron is less important and maybe the more dynamic movement and short-mid passing of Coluna would actually combo better with the wingbacks and the narrower front 3. I think maybe that is what @SirMattBugsby sees as well?

Enigma_87 said:
I find it surprising tbh. Alonso is pretty good at that and excelled in a counter attacking Real Madrid team. He can move the ball pretty fast, cover, recover, tackle and look for openings.

basically it's a role that is his natural game. Of course his quality might be questioned but IMO he's one of the very best midfielders in the pool.

Coluna/Robson is a great pairing but it's something that would go better with Rivera rather than Mazzola, especially in 5-3-2.
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Yeah I don't see Xabi being worse under pressure than Veron. @Šjor Bepo I feel Veron is a wee bit worse at playing out from pressure than Xabi. For instance, a gegenpressing side would not be a good match for Veron imo. I'd rather have Coluna against a high pressing side as well.

I see what you mean about Coluna/Robson looking more natural with Rivera than Mazzola but the more I try to imagine your tactic the less I feel it really even needs a Xabi/Veron long range pass set - although I do appreciate the Robson-Coluna might be harder to sell with Mazzola. Fine lines all around here.
 
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oneniltothearsenal said:
...but then, they are using wingbacks...
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Who would be the ones primarily getting on the end of those long, raking passes - yes.

That's part of the tactic, as I understand it. Whether it actually benefits Mazzola - the main man - more than using, say traditional wingers, is a different question (as EAP touches on). But I do believe it's a reasonable enough approach - and that it would suit Mazzola as such.

If we look at his Inter incarnation, he worked with a) Facchetti (who was a wingback - at least that's an apt enough description of his game) and b) Jair (who ran up and down the opposite flank, not unlike a wingback).

He also worked with two playmaking types (both brilliant passers) in Corso and Suarez - but neither of those really fit the exact mould used here - but both of them certainly provided the flanks with long range passes: Corso in a more unorthodox manner, you could say - he'd start from out wide, drift centrally, hit it long into the box or across the pitch (into Jair territory). Suarez in a more traditional playmaker style (when he hit 'em long from deepish territory).

There are obvious differences between this setup and Inter's, of course, but the two basic traits mentioned (something like "wingbacks" and a playmaker capable of hitting it long with specialist precision) should be very familiar to Mazzola.

Again, though - this isn't about recreating a historical environment, and P-Nigma have stated clearly that this isn't what they've attempted.
 
pnut and enigma splitting their votes between their team and mine is a little confusing.

Wasnt there a rule established in a previous draft where manager votes for opposition teams would count? :p
 
Skizzo said:
pnut and enigma splitting their votes between their team and mine is a little confusing.

Wasnt there a rule established in a previous draft where manager votes for opposition teams would count? :p
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Think it was a bit of standard to split it when there are two managers participating or at least most of the managers did it.

Either way switched it over, although all votes wouldn't count so hardly a difference. :)
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Who would be the ones primarily getting on the end of those long, raking passes - yes.
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What I was trying to say was that if it was a Robson-Coluna midfield the way I would imagine that side playing, there simply wouldn't be as many long range passes because those passes would be mid-range passes instead. The way I see it, a Robson-Coluna would play a little different so the long range passes wouldn't be as necessary as mid range passing skill set which Robson and Coluna both have. Not to take anything away from this approach but just musing on the various options here.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Think it was a bit of standard to split it when there are two managers participating or at least most of the managers did it.

Either way switched it over, although all votes wouldn't count so hardly a difference. :)
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:lol: I know they're all invalid, I just remember getting shit when @Pat_Mustard and I split votes against someone. It doesn't matter these days because the scores aren't visible until you vote anyway, I was just complaining because I don't have anything else to add so far :D
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
Its a tricky thing the more I think about it because I think this being a comparison rather than a head-to-head match actually makes it tougher to think about. In a straight matchup we would have another angle to look at it from, but just comparing a tactic without an opponent is actually trickier than I first thought.

I can see the logic of wanting someone like Xabi/Veron that has that capacity to flip accurate long range passes out to the wings but then, they are using wingbacks and a narrow front three of Signori-Vieiri with Mazzola. So that leads me to think the long range wing passing of Xabi and Veron is less important and maybe the more dynamic movement and short-mid passing of Coluna would actually combo better with the wingbacks and the narrower front 3. I think maybe that is what @SirMattBugsby sees as well?



Yeah I don't see Xabi being worse under pressure than Veron. I see what you mean about Coluna/Robson looking more natural with Rivera than Mazzola but the more I try to imagine your tactic the less I feel it really even needs a Xabi/Veron long range pass set - although I do appreciate the Robson-Coluna might be harder to sell with Mazzola. Fine lines all around here.
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Yes. Also, this is a counter-attacking setup and while Alonso did well in such a setup at Real, that team had width.

The bold part is exactly why I was trying to compare Robson-Alonso with Suarez- Bedin. If the team was defending deep and soaking pressure, I would want the ball-winning partner to be deeper. Now of course Robbo can be relied upon doing that role and joining the attack as well, but delegating the defensive work to the deeper partner makes more sense to me in a counter-attacking team.

Mind you, Alonso is no mug defensively himself. But another factor that @Šjor Bepo pointed out was the ability to weave out of trouble to start counter-attacks. I suppose this can be explained by arguing that a simple pass to Robbo would solve that problem but.. I don't know. There seem to be too many conditions here, under-usage of Alonso's DLP role and slight focus on his weaknesses, i.e. energy and mobility.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
What I was trying to say was that if it was a Robson-Coluna midfield the way I would imagine that side playing, there simply wouldn't be as many long range passes because those passes would be mid-range passes instead. The way I see it, a Robson-Coluna would play a little different so the long range passes wouldn't be as necessary as mid range passing skill set which Robson and Coluna both have. Not to take anything away from this approach but just musing on the various options here.
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We've gone with our approach as it was closer to the style that we thought would suit Mazzola more. If we have two dynamic b2b midfielders it will change the whole approach and dynamics and IMO would suit a more classical #10 such as Rivera rather than Mazzola who is more of a second striker rather than main playmaker.

Coluna in particular has excellent passing ability but he usually played them short rather than spraying magnificent long passes switching flanks and direction.
 
Skizzo said:
:lol: I know they're all invalid, I just remember getting shit when @Pat_Mustard and I split votes against someone. It doesn't matter these days because the scores aren't visible until you vote anyway, I was just complaining because I don't have anything else to add so far :D
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I'd warned you not to change anything in your team man.. but you did well. Careca is a nice replacement for RvP.
 
Skizzo said:
:lol: I know they're all invalid, I just remember getting shit when @Pat_Mustard and I split votes against someone. It doesn't matter these days because the scores aren't visible until you vote anyway, I was just complaining because I don't have anything else to add so far :D
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:lol:

yeah at least we're in the discussion with Alonso/Veron/Coluna, so I'm really not complaining about any of the comments as such as otherwise it would be pretty stale.

Can't really fault your side either mate, so really on answering some of the comments and specifics about our team.
 
my vote wont count, voted to see the result just in case something goes wrong with the poll.
 
oneniltothearsenal said:
The way I see it, a Robson-Coluna would play a little different so the long range passes wouldn't be as necessary as mid range passing skill set which Robson and Coluna both have. Not to take anything away from this approach but just musing on the various options here.
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Ah, yes - no issue with that.

They could have gone with a different approach, certainly.

I suppose it largely comes down to whether one deems it important or not to have a proper, undeniable playmaker (and long ranger, I suppose) in a Mazzola team.

And that's debatable - but, again, looking at Inter (where he did his best work), he did have that (a pair of 'em, even).
 
Second Half!
Team Skizzo


Subs:
Mazzola in for Rivera
Clodoaldo in for Jansen

Same style of set up, Mazzola has the freedom to roam around in that area behind the forwards, and in front of the midfielders. Clodoaldo adds another passer from slightly deeper to offer another outlet, and the full backs will still look to provide movement out wide with Voronin able to cover, and with the attacking movement ahead.
dsa-formation-tactics.png

TbiNXnp.png

Team P-nut/Enigma

Formation: 4-4-2 (Diamond)
Style - Direct, counter attacking set up.

Player roles:

GK: Michel Preud'homme - complete keeper with great distribution and excellent at starting the attacks if needed.
LB: Bixente Lizarazu - Stretch the attack, man his own flank moving vertically through the lines when in and off possession. Cross from deep and get the ball to the forwards. Solid defensively but also perfectly capable of providing width.
RB: Eric Gerets - Same as Lizarazu from the other side.
CB: Velibor Vasović - A complete CB who will command the space around him and with his great reading of the game will sniff the danger before it happens.
CB: Karlheinz Förster - One of the outstanding stoppers in the pool.
LCM: Màrio Coluna - one of the best box to box players in the draft, operating mainly in the leftish CM side. He'll be fluent in this position and cover ground both defensively and in attack
Deep playmaker: Xabi Alonso - look for openings both on the flank and up field, get the ball to the forwards as quickly as possible, anchor the midfield.
Box to Box: Bryan Robson - An all action box to box midfielder, leader of the 80's United side and a great ball winner in midfield. He brings a lot of energy and never say die attitude in the middle of the pitch. He's fluent in the rightish side of the pitch as he used to play RM for United in the 80's.
Central player: Gianni Rivera - Classic #10, golden boy of Italian football.
SS - Giuseppe Signori - use his pace on counters, stretch the attack wide and more often on his favorite left position.
CF: Christian Vieri - target man, keep the opposition defence honest, make space for Rivera, use his strength in aerial duels to bring the ball down.

Central player - Gianni Rivera

The set up is based on getting the best of Rivera. He will have two quality and industrious midfielders flanking him in Coluna and Robson as well as two great full backs in Lizarazu and Gerets offering width in attack. Up front Signori/Vieri is a perfect SS/ST combination. Alonso at the base can get the attacks going while Rivera will use the area between the two attackers and the midfield trio to pull the strings.

Defence - back four consisting of classic sweeper/stopper combination in Vasovic/Forster and 2 great balanced full backs in Lizarazu and Gerets.

Defensive Line - Normal
Marking - Custom (1 stopper to pick up the striker Vasovic commanding the line, 2 solid left backs with Xabi Alonso anchoring)
Off the ball - Press the opposition in own half get the ball back direct transitions and look for the goal
On the ball - Direct style

Midfield roles:
Robson and Coluna will be box to box providing a lot of energy, whilst also being solid defensively. Both will be fluent out wide to the left and right respectively and with Alonso at the base of the diamond is a perfect setup for Rivera to shine and let him pull the strings from advanced position.

Attack - one second striker in Signori with great off the ball movement - he'll move through channels and look for space. Vieri will keep the defensive line honest and provide presence in the box.
 
Pat_Mustard said:
We got the hairdryer treatment from @Chesterlestreet for doing that IIRC :lol:
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Aye, that you did.

But my draconian suggestions went unheeded, as per usual.

As I recall, my actual suggestion was that each team (whether it has one or ten managers) get one vote - and that all designated AMs are encouraged not to vote. All manager and AM votes are invalid if they vote for their own team, but COUNT if they're daft enough to vote for the opposition.
 
A post here stolen from @Joga Bonito on Careca, and his style and ability. Shamelessly stolen, I might add.

Joga Bonito said:
With the dynamism and the goalscoring threat of the likes of Rummenigge, and Sir Bobby Charlton, Careca is the ideal centre-forward to spear-head my attack here imo. He scored or assisted in every game (5 goals and 3 assists in 5 games) and even earned a penalty in their penultimate game which Zico unfortunately missed.

The key thing to highlight would be his sheer movement, ability to create openings and cracking link-up play.





1.40 (shot off the bar from which Socrates scores an open goal for the only goal of the match)

2.30 (Plays a ball that any playmaker would be proud of for which almosts results in a goal)

2.54 (Comes close again)






2.30 (scores the only goal of the match with a classic poacher's goal)






1.12 (scores goal from a cross to open the scoring)

6.15 (forces a great save from Jennings)

6.45 (ventures out to the channels yet again, creating openings through the middle - a frequent feature of his game)


7.38 (scores a brilliant goal after some sumptuous link-up play with Zico after cutting in from the right)




1.50 (wins penalty after some slick off the ball movement again, keeps finding pockets of space with ease)

6.05 (classic counter-attacking goal with a back-heel assist by Careca, once again his intelligent positioning and ability to bring others into play shines through here)

6.52 (does the same thing again with his pass resulting in a penalty, which Careca duly converts)





0.25 (very nearly 'poaches' a goal)

0.35 (scores one of the goals of the tournaments after some great build-up play)

2.45 (hits the bar with a header)

2.50 (wins penalty after some wily off the ball movement again but Zico misses it)

5.02 :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: (Seriously if France had gone out, they must have been cursed or something)

5.16 (great dribble and cross but Socrates misses an open goal :annoyed:)


And Brazil go out on penalties.
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Skizzo said:
Would have been a bit screwed if he didn't become available because I personally wasn't too thrilled about other choices. It's the Mazzola sub that'll screw me up :lol:
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Alright! Didn't know that. And yes, I'm giving @Enigma_87 trouble for not liking for the Robbo-Alonso pairing, but I can see it really working with Rivera.

Maybe that's my problem: I have really come to love Rivera :boring:

And as I write, here are the second half teams. Suddenly, Alonso looks oh so fine!
 
SirMattBugsby said:
Any particular reason @Skizzo ?
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Mostly because it makes us more expansive from the midfield two in terms of ball movement.

In this set up with Voronin, I'd look for less movement from the midfield two and have that full backs push up more than they necessarily would have with Rivera. With Voronin dropping deeper to help cover more defensively, it allows Mazzola to roam more in midfield and find space to operate, while still keeping the attackers and movement ahead of him.

We'd be less inclined to push everything through Mazzola like we would with Rivera, so the ability of Careca, Clodoaldo, and Lato/Gadocha to all create as well gives us a platform to let Mazzola find the best places to attack from.
 
Hm.

Less love for Alonso in that formation, if I'm honest.

And no designated playmaker for Mazzola.

P-Nigma: Makes sense to add Coluna here. Him and Robbo behind Rivera is pretty great, actually. But now Alonso looks a bit...what's he supposed to do there, really? Rivera himself is a specialist passer/playmaker, both long and short. You don't need Alonso to instigate the kind of moves Rivera himself excelled at instigating (when he operated a bit more deeply). Shielding the defence is actually neither here nor there – as you aren't playing against Skizzo's XI.

Skizzo: Makes sense to replace Jansen with Clodoaldo (I suppose) but you still have no grand string puller in that side. Again, though, I stress that whether you actually need one is debatable.

Dunno. I count a point against both teams now – question is what is “worse” (neither is terrible, of course).

As @oneniltothearsenal said above, though – it's feckin' hard to keep disregarding how this would play out in a normal match.
 
I think that new Rivera side with Coluna and Robson is my favorite out of the four so far.
Ah but Chester does make a good point about Xabi being more redundant now. hmm..
 
@Chesterlestreet read the last part of my above post to SirMattBugsby in regards to our creativity. With Rivera I never needed to focus on a secondary since we would flow everything through him. It bites me in the ass now, of course, having to make the subs to accommodate Mazzola..but rather than one primary playmaker, we spread that responsibility between a few suited to do so, which leaves Mazzola to do his thing, so to speak.
 
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