P-nut/Enigma vs Raees/Invi - Tactical Draft QF

Who created a better environment for their star player to shine?

  • Total voters
    23
  • Poll closed .
Moving on, the presence of not just two of the very best wingers in the pool, but two of the best attacking fullbacks could be the key differentiation here in terms of providing additional ammunition for Law.


World Cup Legends: France and Manuel Amoros



To represent your country at 20 years old you could arguably be considered a pretty good player. To be a regular in the World Cup team at that age you must be pretty special but then it can be argued that Manuel Amoros was a pretty special player. Renowned at right full back – but equally at home on the left – Amoros would go on to be recognized as one of the best full backs in French history.

Born on the 01st February 1962 in Nîmes to French/Spanish heritage, Amoros joined local team Gallia Club Lunel at 10 years old before at 15 moving to ASM Monaco. Originally seen in his youth as a striker, Amoros was soon converted to full back. Debuting in the first team in 1980 he initially played at left back forging an excellent relationship with left winger Bruno Bellone. After eighteen appearances in his first season, he became fully established the following with 37 appearances.

His performances earned a place [as did bellone] in the French 1982 World Cup team including the likes of Platini, Giresse, Tigana, Six and Bossis. France would get to the semi-finals before going out on penalties in an incredible match overshadowed by the Schumacher ‘assault’ on Patrick Battiston. What is sometimes forgotten is how close Les Bleus came to winning with a thunderous Amoros shot cannoning off the bar in the last-minute of normal time. Amoros was nominated best young player of the World Cup.

Domestically, Amoros and AS Monaco would excel, winning Ligue 1 in 1982 and 1988, finishing runners-up in 1984. Coupe de France winners in 1980 and 1985, finalists in 1984 & 89 and the Trophée des Champions in 1985. In nine years at Les Rouges et Blancs, Amoros made 348 appearances, scoring 42 goals – an outstanding number for a full back.

During this time, Amoros had captained Les Bleus at Euro 1984 that would see France win their first major title. However a red card in the first match saw him not play again until the final, coming on as substitute. The 1986 World Cup saw France get past Brazil in the quarter finals in one the great World Cup matches before falling yet again to Germany in the semis. Amoros was recognized as one of the finest defenders of his age, being voted into the team of the tournament. Amoros would go on win 82 caps in his ten-year international career.

1989 brought a move to Olympique de Marseilles and three league titles by 1993 and a move to Olympique Lyonnais for two season before returning to Marseilles and a final season.

Adept with both feet, technically proficient, a determined and combative full back with the speed, skill to excel as a wing back as well as the ability to score goals. Manuel Amoros was arguably the complete full back.
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http://backpagefootball.com/world-cup-legends-france-manuel-amoros/77785/

FIFA World Cup Best Young Player Award: 1982
Onze d'Argent: 1984
French Player of the Year: 1986
FIFA World Cup All-Star Team: 1986
FIFA XI: 1986
 
Also to reiterate on Coluna from what I've saw from him personally so that the term 'Didi of Portugal' is not confused - he isn't the Didi we all know - the dominant playmaker. He had a pretty solid passing range, but you won't see all those glorious long passes like for example Alonso will provide. He liked to keep it simple and move the ball quickly, which is one of the main reason we've gone with him.

His defense is really based on positioning, covering and endless stamina, which allowed him to cover a lot of ground and participate in both stages. I don't think inside forward is a good description of his game at all, as he was a complete, dynamic box to box midfielder, rather than what you'd associate with inside forwards at the time.

As Joga noted above in the graphs, his general position is also deeper than what @Raees has shown in his previous graphs, and not your advanced possession playmaker.

Sorry for the long posts on Coluna, but I think it's important to highlight his game and his suitability in the system.
 
harms said:
By the way, was it Stielike who was once Madrid's top scorer in a season? @Raees @Invictus
I remember something like this but not sure that it was him.


edit: found it. Gosh, what a torrid season it was, if a man who scored 9 goals became your top scorer :lol: On par with Juanito and Santillana in 1981/82

To be honest, looking back at his Madrid career he is less of an issue in 4-4-2 then based on his NT performances, although I always prefer him at the base of 3 man midfield.
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Yes, you're right - he was joint top scorer in 1981 with Santillana and Juanito. Played more of an advanced midfield role in the years following Breitner's move away from the club with Pirri dropping into the sweeper position. Like vs. Progrès Niedercorn in the 1978 European Cup where both were on the score sheet (4th highest away win the history of Real Madrid):

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http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=1978/clubs/club=52311/matches/index.html
Stielike spent nine seasons with Madrid, was part of many trophy winning teams, and he himself won four consecutive awards for best foreign player in La Liga, so you can be assured that he was no slouch as a player.

As far as the national team goes, from early on he was groomed to replace Franz Beckenbauer in the libero role. He was equally adept in central midfield, being capable of winning the ball (with plenty of vigour) as well as using it with intelligence and accuracy.
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On a related note, Pirri was the top (or joint top) scorer for 4 seasons as a box-to-box midfielder - scoring 10, 11, 13 and 11. The more I read about him, the more he comes across as a Spanish Robson - who transitioned to different positions as his career wore on (most notably DM and libero). :lol:

More to Stielike - the likes of him, and Pirri, and Briegel and Burgnich and even Ceulemans were selected in no small part because of their tactical versatility. eg. In a WM, we could maybe put Briegel at left fullback, he did play there in the '86 final:

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Drop Amoros and put Burgnich at right fullback, Stielike could play the Zoco/Zakariás-esque half-back who drops into defense - allowing Briegel and Burgnich to go slightly wider. And given that the likes of Djalma, Bergomi, Thuram are unavailable, you could argue that Burgnich is among the best of the crop for that position.
 
The curious case of Ryan Giggs and the 4-4-2…

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Throughout the history of the game, there is one player who can lay claim to the throne as 'the' definitive left sided winger for the 4-4-2 formation. Someone like Gento played mixture of 3-2-5, 4-2-4, and Dzajic shot to international stardom in a 4-3-3 in the Euro 68 final. However when you want to play in a 4-4-2, the first name on the team sheet surely has to be Ryan Giggs.

What made Ryan so effective in a 4-4-2? Well the system itself doesn't really require its wingers to act as forwards per se like they're expected to be in a 4-3-3, therefore greater emphasis is placed on creating chaos down the flanks and supplying your forward pair.. you're much more likely to engage in a dribbling duel with your full back and you're expected to put crosses in.. in a 4-3-3, you're expected to playmake more, come inside and your goal output for an all time level wing forward needs to be hitting 15 plus a season, whereas in a 4-4-2.. it is the assists rather than the goals which are more important.

Luckily for Ryan Giggs, he is comfortably the biggest assist maker in United history and this isn't jus down to longevity, but the average assists he made per season and the consistency at which he did it was phenomenal.

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What set Ryan apart from his peers was the sheer unpredictability of his dribbling style and the fear he struck in even the greatest ever right backs, see Zanetti for example in the 1998/99 CL quarters.. where Zanetti just could not keep up with him. He would twist this way and that with his ridiculous swivel of the hips and just when the defender had almost set his feet, he'd take it down the outside and he was off… leaving defenders in an absolute heap. What was also key for Giggs, especially at his peak was ensuring that the full back didn't really overlap to the point where the full back was in his space.. Irwin tended to drop deep more on the underlap and let Giggsy have the space to do his thing.


HISTORIC 4-4-2 SIDES WITH GIGGS ON THE LEFT FLANK

The 1994 Team


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The 1999 Team





2006



2007-08

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Generation after generation and Giggsy delivered in a 4-4-2, with another winger on the opposite flank and with two forwards ahead of him and a solid duo in midfield. Law couldn't ask for a better winger in United history to get the best out of him here.. He just needs to ask the likes of Cantona, Yorke & Cole (who took turns to drop deep) and Rooney & Tevez (who also took turns to drop deep). Giggs has played and starred in 4-4-2's with very traditional pairings (SS behind 9) and also unconventional forward pairings (2 9's and 2 9.5's) and has gelled well with them nonetheless.
 
Gio said:
Lovely stuff. What a team we had. Good video - shows the range in Law's game
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Some game that was and the 60s Scottish side seriously underacheived and should have done much better given the sheer quality in their ranks. The likes of Denis Law, Bremner, Baxter, Johnstone, Mackay, Greig, McNeil, Lennox, Gemmell, Murdoch, Auld etc really had the quality to make an impact on the international stage. I've watched quite a fair bit of some footage of that side and they've more than held their own against the likes of England or heck even Germany where they outplayed them only to be outdone by Muller.

Think I might do Law's game playing for FIFA XI against England in 1963, the interplay and movement between the likes of Kopa, di Stefano, Euesebio, Masopust and Law was sensational to watch.

@Enigma_87 @Gio

www.dailymotion.com/video/x4olrqd

The youtube video I made was taken down so take a gander at this one. As far as I'm concerned he is in the brand of van Hanegem/Overath etc, a deep-ish all round playmaking midfielder (with relatively less passing range but more physicality and drive on the ball). The Didi label is a wee bit misleading though, as he didn't have Didi's sheer range of passes but was extremely skillful and was the commanding presence in midfield who kept things ticking.

The game against Barca, he was relatively further forward as the inside left but his transformation post Eusebio was more akin to an all-round commanding playmaking midfielder.
 
Joga Bonito said:
Some game that was and the 60s Scottish side seriously underacheived and should have done much better given the sheer quality in their ranks. The likes of Denis Law, Bremner, Baxter, Johnstone, Mackay, Greig, McNeil, Lennox, Gemmell, Murdoch, Auld etc really had the quality to make an impact on the international stage. I've watched quite a fair bit of some footage of that side and they've more than held their own against the likes of England or heck even Germany where they outplayed them only to be outdone by Muller.

Think I might do Law's game playing for FIFA XI against England in 1963, the interplay and movement between the likes of Kopa, di Stefano, Euesebio, Masopust and Law was sensational to watch.

@Enigma_87 @Gio

www.dailymotion.com/video/x4olrqd

The youtube video I made was taken down so take a gander at this one. As far as I'm concerned he is in the brand of van Hanegem/Overath etc, a deep-ish all round playmaking midfielder (with relatively less passing range but more physicality and drive on the ball). The Didi label is a wee bit misleading though, as he didn't have Didi's sheer range of passes but was extremely skillful and was the commanding presence in midfield who kept things ticking.

The game against Barca, he was relatively further forward as the inside left but his transformation post Eusebio was more akin to an all-round commanding playmaking midfielder.
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Cheers mate, and great work!

I've watched some of the games in CL on dailymotion or Youtube in the past (might be 1-2 years ago) against us, Barca and Real and indeed to me the Didi label was a bit misleading in a sense he was never the dominant playmaker Didi was, neither he had the same style or feel. He got a good technique on him but not spectacular like the Brazilian at the time.

He got a decent amount of pace on him but he needed to get it going as he was pretty well build and not the explosive midfielder that you might think(which I think you also mentioned) but rather based his game on stamina, drive and positional sense as well as reading of the game.

I actually think van Hanegem is a great example in terms of his actual play in a sense that he was very versatile and can adjust his game to a position, whilst also being a great fit in a box to box role without the main playmaking mantle of the team.
 
Raees said:
Another tight game.. best of luck @P-Nut0712 @Enigma_87 - was hard to find fault with that side, and immaculately presented.
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Cheers mate and best luck to you too in the last minutes of the game. It has been very tight since the off and hardly anything to fault at yours as well.
 
Šjor Bepo said:
awwww draft friends
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Aye, have to say I'm generally always fan of R/I sides and they always pick sound teams so it's always difficult facing them.

Been a great game @Raees @Invictus . You deserved to go through as much as us and you have done a grand job building that side around Law.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Aye, have to say I'm generally always fan of R/I sides and they always pick sound teams so it's always difficult facing them.

Been a great game @Raees @Invictus . You deserved to go through as much as us and you have done a grand job building that side around Law.
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yeah, great game with 2 great teams so it was best to stay away from the vote button :)
 
Closest game I've been a part of that I think. Well done to @Raees and @Invictus I didn't want to really pick fault with your side as it was as well made as possible really.
 
P-Nut0712 said:
Closest game I've been a part of that I think. Well done to @Raees and @Invictus I didn't want to really pick fault with your side as it was as well made as possible really.
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Yup if anything the reinforcement rounds for sides like ours are more of a poisoned chalice rather than of benefit.
 
Raees said:
Yup if anything the reinforcement rounds for sides like ours are more of a poisoned chalice rather than of benefit.
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Yeah nothing we could really change coming into this round and even less going forward from here.
 
Good game @P-Nut0712 and @Enigma_87. All the best for the rest of the draft. :)

As for team R/I, reckon we need to rethink things (and contemplate life in general) after a litany of almosts and what ifs.

5zx185a.gif
 
Invictus said:
Good game @P-Nut0712 and @Enigma_87. All the best for the rest of the draft. :)

As for team R/I, reckon we need to rethink things (and contemplate life in general) after a litany of almosts and what ifs.

5zx185a.gif
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I think me and @Skizzo reached 3 or 4 finals in fairly quick succession and got beat every time before eventually winning one. Skizzo's went on to win another one while I've languished in mid-table, bar a beautiful fling with @Šjor Bepo when we reached a final. You'll get there soon enough, then briefly contemplate why you invested so much time in this shite, then quickly sign up for another one :D
 
Pat_Mustard said:
I think me and @Skizzo reached 3 or 4 finals in fairly quick succession and got beat every time before eventually winning one. Skizzo's went on to win another one while I've languished in mid-table, bar a beautiful fling with @Šjor Bepo when we reached a final. You'll get there soon enough, then briefly contemplate why you invested so much time in this shite, then quickly sign up for another one :D
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Aye that was quite a run of frustration. The only real compensation was the fact we beat @Edgar Allan Pillow on the way to most of those finals before we predictably lost again :lol:
 
I've voted for Invictus/Raees. Great job as usual. In a 4-4-2 system, I would have preferred a collective striker instead of Ceulemans even if I get the idea. I hope they will win a draft soon.

Another odd game where one central player has been relatively ignored >> no videos about Mazzola :(

I know a so-called 'remake is no fun' for some posters :wenger: but it's always interesting to see in which context a player has reached his peak.

So, I will never say Mazzola requires in this draft a Catenaccio system but given his style of play and the spirit of this draft, I would have probably used Mazzola as a #10 or free-role forward. A player like Jair on the right flank was key



Law would have been more happier here IMO
 
Downcast said:
I've voted for Invictus/Raees. Great job as usual. In a 4-4-2 system, I would have preferred a collective striker instead of Ceulemans even if I get the idea. I hope they will win a draft soon.

Another odd game where one central player has been relatively ignored >> no videos about Mazzola :(

I know a so-called 'remake is no fun' for some posters :wenger: but it's always interesting to see in which context a player has reached his peak.

So, I will never say Mazzola requires in this draft a Catenaccio system but given his style of play and the spirit of this draft, I would have probably used Mazzola as a #10 or free-role forward. A player like Jair on the right flank was key



Law would have been more happier here IMO
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Mazzola drifts right though so letting him have the flank to himself instead of having others clogging his space was something we wanted to avoid. Here he can drift right or come central and still have players around to link up with whilst still having ample space.
 
P-Nut0712 said:
Mazzola drifts right though so letting him have the flank to himself instead of having others clogging his space was something we wanted to avoid. Here he can drift right or come central and still have players around to link up with whilst still having ample space.
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Another video with Italy below



With Inter and Italy, you can see him on the left, as a SS, on the right... as a free-role forward.

Just my modest understanding or personal preference :)
 
Downcast said:
Another video with Italy below



With Inter and Italy, you can see him on the left, as a SS, on the right... as a free-role forward.

Just my modest understanding or personal preference :)
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And he pretty much has that freedom here. If the situation occurred where he felt he'd get more freedom drifting left then Signori would just push forward to draw the full back away from him and give him the space he needed.
 
P-Nut0712 said:
And he pretty much has that freedom here. If the situation occurred where he felt he'd get more freedom drifting left then Signori would just push forward to draw the full back away from him and give him the space he needed.
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Yeah, he has the required freedom here but an additional offensive player would have been the welcome to provide more options
 
Downcast said:
Yeah, he has the required freedom here but an additional offensive player would have been the welcome to provide more options
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Suppose it depends on how you set up really. The fact we're playing counter attacking means you don't really want to crowd the areas.

Here a quick vertical ball into Mazzola leaves him with 4 options. Switch the play to Signori, go forward to Vieri, take on his man or go backwards to our supporting midfielders. A player of Mazzolas quality doesn't need more options than that I feel.
 
Invictus said:
Good game @P-Nut0712 and @Enigma_87. All the best for the rest of the draft. :)

As for team R/I, reckon we need to rethink things (and contemplate life in general) after a litany of almosts and what ifs.

5zx185a.gif
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Cheers mate. Personally I really like your teams and IMO those almosts and ifs would materialize very soon as you are on the right path. :)
 
Downcast said:
Another video with Italy below



With Inter and Italy, you can see him on the left, as a SS, on the right... as a free-role forward.

Just my modest understanding or personal preference :)
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With Inter he was on the right as Suarez used the space on the leftish AM (as well as an advanced playmaker) with Jair outside right with defensive functions as well. Here Gerets as a wingback generally does exactly the same leaving the inside right channel for Mazzola.

If we have another attacker at the expense of midfield or defensive player I'd say it will negate his effect here, as we are going after 5-3-2 system that soaks pressure and hits the opposition on counter. It would have to be a bit different formation and system to achieve what you mentioned.

Besides apart from Signori and Vieri he also has the support of the fullbacks when in possession and also Coluna going forward as we have plenty of runners.
 
Pat_Mustard said:
:lol::lol: Aye, a combined record of 6-0 against our nemesis I believe :D
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It's rather one sided in a way though. We're his Mount Everest at this point..he's the speed bump on our way to the main event. If that speed bump had already been flattened and you didn't notice you were actually driving over anything :D
 
Enigma_87 said:
With Inter he was on the right as Suarez used the space on the leftish AM (as well as an advanced playmaker) with Jair outside right with defensive functions as well. Here Gerets as a wingback generally does exactly the same leaving the inside right channel for Mazzola.

If we have another attacker at the expense of midfield or defensive player I'd say it will negate his effect here, as we are going after 5-3-2 system that soaks pressure and hits the opposition on counter. It would have to be a bit different formation and system to achieve what you mentioned.

Besides apart from Signori and Vieri he also has the support of the fullbacks when in possession and also Coluna going forward as we have plenty of runners.
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You have done a great job as usual and Mazzola has a familiar role here. In these drafts, the wing-backs tend to be oversold : Gerets is first and foremost a defender while Jair (with Inter) or Domenghini (Italy) were wingers/forwards.

In the videos I've posted here, I see a free man who was very mobile and not excessively right-centric.

I could have tried something like that


Signori ------ Vieiri ----- RW
-------------------- Mazzola
--------- Coluna ----
------------ Xabi Alonso

Now, I have just watched 2 compilations while 44 videos are required before taking a decision.

My last post here :)
 
Skizzo said:
It's rather one sided in a way though. We're his Mount Everest at this point..he's the speed bump on our way to the main event. If that speed bump had already been flattened and you didn't notice you were actually driving over anything :D
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antohan said:
@Edgar Allan Pillow anything to say?
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I don't know who those two clowns are. Even I knew them, it'd be a David vs Goliath story. Good always triumphs in the end. ;)
 
Joga Bonito said:
Not if David happens to be Mr Brainfart ;)
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:lol: Fair enough. But creating a wacky team I want to build gives me more satisfaction than a functional team I don't love. My recent formations have all been WM/Pyramid/3-4-3 etc and not really suited for a draft win. Still.

In fact now that I think of it, my two favourite draft teams I ever built was in British/Irish draft (which I lost to Skizzo/Pat) and the Billy No Mates draft (which I built along with Skizzo/Pat). Not sure which pains me more to admit in all honesty. Oh, the irony :(
 
Downcast said:
You have done a great job as usual and Mazzola has a familiar role here. In these drafts, the wing-backs tend to be oversold : Gerets is first and foremost a defender while Jair (with Inter) or Domenghini (Italy) were wingers/forwards.

In the videos I've posted here, I see a free man who was very mobile and not excessively right-centric.

I could have tried something like that


Signori ------ Vieiri ----- RW
-------------------- Mazzola
--------- Coluna ----
------------ Xabi Alonso

Now, I have just watched 2 compilations while 44 videos are required before taking a decision.

My last post here :)
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No worries mate always welcome to see other ideas and especially regarding Mazzola, as he's the star man so the setup/formation around him.

We have went with 5-3-2 mainly because of the style would suit him best IMO, as soaking the pressure and direct counter attacking football was what Grande Inter was about. We're not going for a remake necessarily but kept the basics while, obviously went with different personnel and tactics.

In the formation above you have 4 forwards, at the expense of our additional CB I presume, which would be hard to use as a counter attacking set up but is more possession based system. Now Mazzola has the abilities to play in possession based system, but a direct counter attacking team is more to his strengths, that also gives him plenty of space up front and also the ability to receive the ball high up and face the opposition goal,rather than receive the ball with his back to the goal.

While 5-3-2 always seems negative and defensive in draft game, it's not necessary the case. Take a look at our approach here - we have Signori, Vieri and Mazzola, coupled with Coluna coming from deep and threat from range and 2 attacking wing backs(in Ze's case he's also pretty good winger) which is more than enough potent attacking unit, while being solid and compact at the back.

la-grande-inter-model1.jpg


here you have Mazzolla/Corso/Peiro as main attacking threats, Jair winger (but with defensive duties) and Facchetti attacking wing back. It's a bit the same in our case with Ze the more attacking option on the left while, Gerets provides a lot of support on the right, while obviously Coluna has attacking impact in the same sense as Suarez.

In our 5-3-2 we have Signori and Mazzola who are both in free roles, so as you expect naturally both can drift left/right but obviously they will come in the center and occasionally switch the flank, which is what you'd expect to see in the highlights above. 5-3-2 gives you that space in which Mazzola would optimally operate, while a 4-2-4 of sorts with 4 pure attackers would not give you the control in the defensive phase and the ability to soak the pressure unless the LW/RW tracks back constantly to help the midfield/defence.

We considered some different options and might change the approach but we will see how it goes with the next game :)
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
:lol: Fair enough. But creating a wacky team I want to build gives me more satisfaction than a functional team I don't love. My recent formations have all been WM/Pyramid/3-4-3 etc and not really suited for a draft win. Still.

In fact now that I think of it, my two favourite draft teams I ever built was in British/Irish draft (which I lost to Skizzo/Pat) and the Billy No Mates draft (which I built along with Skizzo/Pat). Not sure which pains me more to admit in all honesty. Oh, the irony :(
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Our paths are forever intertwined.

Can't lie though..That pyramid we built was actually a lot of fun. Still think we were robbed.
 
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