P&G Draft - R1: Team Beam vs Enigma Bonito

[Physiocrat]

Team Beam

Tactics

Team is playing an unorthodox 352 formation which is built to bring the best out of the team in general, but also individual qualities within.
In the attacking phase, this team is capable of controlling the tempo of the game and most importantly creating either from deep positions, the centre of the pitch or from the flanks providing balls to the attack.
Shape becomes a 3142 at times as the wing-backs join the attack, stretching the pitch and opening up space for the central midfielders to run into or pass into.
In the defensive phase, everyone will drop back making a classical 532, hard to break, especially from the flanks.

The team is also more than capable to make a quick transition from the defensive phase and hit the opponent on the counter if and when the other team loses the ball in any area of the pitch.

Defence

Gyula Groscis is widely recognized as one of the greatest goalkeepers of all time.
In front of him, we have Willi Schulz on sweeper position who was acknowledged as one of the best central defenders of his era. He will take his most comfortable position as a sweeper marshalling our defence. As a bit more conservative sweeper with no urge to lead the attack, but still comfortable on the ball, he is the perfect foil to Redondo ahead of him allowing the latter to orchestrate the attack. By each side of Schulz, we have Oscar Ruggeri and Jaap Stam and there is no need for the special introduction of either player. Both tough as nails type of defenders with great ball-winning ability and strength in the air.
Wingback positions are occupied by Sergi and Jimmy Armfield who will not only cover in the defensive phase but provide extra options to the midfield when they come under pressure from the opposition. Both players are highly reliable and effective in what they do, whether we talk about their ability to defend or provide support to the attack.

Midfield

As both security and creative force behind Laudrup and Giresse stands one of the best defensive midfielders of all time in Fernando Redondo. Efficient and aggressive tackler who had supreme passing, vision and close control to link defence with the attack. Michael Laudrup and Alain Giresse are in positions that will give them freedom and allow them to play their natural game providing plenty of service for the attack, while also making runs with or without the ball and being a huge goal threat on their own.

Attack

Butragueno was hard working, but also an extremely gifted player who was an efficient goal-scorer. He also had a great hold up play, dribbling ability and an eye for a pass which makes him a perfect player for this system and a partner to Romario.
Romario is Romario, Maradona of the penalty box. One of the deadliest and most clinical strikers of all time.

Both Romario and Butragueno are capable of dropping from the penalty box to pick up the ball, switch it to the flanks and disorientate the central defenders with their runs and their dribbling which makes them impossible to mark out of the game.

Enigma Bonito

Formation: 4-3-3
Style: direct, counter attacking

Defence
Our defence is marshalled by arguably the best modern CB in Diego Godin, who has been head and shoulders above his peers in a footballing era dominated by forwards. His partner in crime, Carvalho was a class act, being one of the stand-out defenders of his generation. Gordillo is a great stylistic fit to Cristiano, whom we have build the team around, and is well covered by the dynamic Davids who will work in tandem with the Spaniard in both phases. Panucci is a solid and reliable full-back who combines defensive solidity with the ability to support Robben in the attacking third.

Midfield
One of the focal points of the team. Our fearsome engine room comprises of two of arguably most dynamic midfielders ever in Davids and Neeskens, with the latter's offensive inclinations (WC Silver Boot) complementing the Pitbull's defensive bite. The midfield is anchored by Nestor Goncalves, whose vision and classy passing can start off attacks from deep while his astute positioning and ball-winning abilities shield the back four against a rather centrally oriented S/JB attack.

Attack
Cristiano and Robben are probably the best wing combo in the draft with their sheer cocktail of blistering pace, trickery, goalscoring threat, incisive passing, movement off the ball and slick interchanging play. The ideal goalscoring foil in Careca who is as complete as it gets with his deadly finishing and classy link-up play. He'd complement, the wing duo's movement with his foraging of the channels and ability to drop deep, whilst gobbling up the service from the midfield and his fellow forwards.

Advantages
- Best player on the park in Cristiano Ronaldo and arguably the greatest goalscorer in history. A force of nature in his own right, he has a great supporting cast here with the wingsmanship of Gordillo, the creative brilliance of Robben and a fantastic midfield trio to supply him
- Our midfield with their dynamism and creativity are ideally placed here to exploit Ronaldo's and Robben'space and deadliness. As good as Redondo was, he'll find it tough to get to grips with our midfield without another conventional central midfielder alongside him
- Robben vs Sergi - as good as Sergi was he's a bit of misfit against the explosive Robben whose pace and trickery might be a tad too much for the Spaniard to deal with
- Laudrup-Romario is a great duo but our midfield trio and Godin in particular are well suited to handle this threat

 

[Physiocrat]

@Jim Beam @Šjor Bepo @Enigma_87 @Joga Bonito

Game on!

 

[Enigma_87]

Thanks for setting it up @Physiocrat !

Best of luck @Šjor Bepo @Jim Beam !

 

[Enigma_87]

TEAM PROFILE:

GK: Ray Clemence - Liverpool's greatest custodian and one of England's greatest keepers ever. Was a pillar in the 70's Liverpool team that won 3 European Cups and 5 First Division titles. Best known for his command of the area, superior positional sense, top class reflexes and ability in the air with a whopping 335 clean sheets in 665 appearances for Liverpool.

LB: Rafael Gordillo - Camacho's natural hair at Real for the left back position, Gordillo was an exciting wing back going forward renowned for his attacking threat, but very dependable and solid at the back as well. During his career he amassed 5 La Liga titles, 1 UEFA cup and 75 caps for the national side. On individual note he also was chosen as the best Spanish player in 79/80 which is telling of his individual qualities.

RB: Christian Panucci - Balanced full back at his peak with a phenomenal trophy cabinet boasting with 2 CL titles, 2 Serie A titles, 1 La Liga, 2 Coppa Italia's and was a big success wherever he went. Solid and dependable at the back he would also complement the attack and possessed a great engine and endless stamina which helped him operating all across the backline.

CB: Diego Godin - The best modern day CB since Rio and Nesta. Blessed with the defensive nous and aerial ability, Godin's been the inspirational rock at the back for Atletico, as he squared up against the best talents of all time in Messi and Cristiano, often coming on top. Further reinforced his credentials in the 2018 WC as one of the top CBs of the tournament.

CB: Ricardo Carvalho - Jose's Rolls Royce defender followed him pretty much his whole career, but his EURO 04 performance also speaks for itself. The fastest CB at the EURO and fantastic fit for the more rugged Terry he was the cornerstone in the much appreciated Chelsea defence 10-15 years ago. Excellent on the deck and in the air he was also a cultured ball player from the back and also possesses the class to counter even the best forwards of his era.

DM: Nestor Goncalves - El Capitan and heir to one Obdulio Varela, Tito was the classy and formidable midfield general of the great Penarol 60s vintage which swept across everything in front of them with 9 league titles, 3 Copa Libertadores and 2 Intercontinental Cup wins overcoming the likes of Pele's Santos, Eusebio's Benfica and Real Madrid along the way. He'll boss the midfield from a deeper position with his great engine and excellent passing range.

LCM: Edgar Davids - "The Pitbull" is pretty much in his zone here playing his favorite left sided box to box role. One of the best names in history to do so. He'll cover for Gordillo but also form a magnificent midfield trio with Tito and Neeskens.

RCM: Johan Neeskens - Arguably the most complete midfielder of all time, Neeskens was simply an indomitable and irrepressible presence on the pitch - his 'kamikaze pilot' like physical aggressiveness going hand in hand with technical ingenuity and tactical nous. With Davids and Goncalves in tandem, he'd be a force to be reckoned with.

LWF: Cristiano Ronaldo - The most devastating goalscoring forward in the history of the game. Very few guarantee goals and clutch moments like Ronaldo does. With 5 Ballon d'Ors, 4 Euopean Golden Shoes, 5 Champions Leagues amongst a raft of other honors, his record speaks for itself.

RWF: Arjen Robben - A powerhouse at the right wing, he's the best modern day right winger. His game is pretty complete and can be either a provider with his brilliant link up and crossing game, but also he's well known decisive player in big games scoring some phenomenal goals floating in from the right.

CF: Careca - The consummate centre-forward - he simply had it all with his all-round nifty technical play and deadly goalscoring prowess - as his silver boot in the 1986 WC and his goalscoring record in the 80s Serie A will attest. The perfect goalscoring foil to spearhead our forward trio.

 

[Jim Beam]

Just come back from work, will be here for a debate very soon.

Thanks @Physiocrat for setting it

Best of luck @Enigma_87 @Joga Bonito!

Good luck to you @Šjor Bepo also, really like your team, so kinda cheering for you here.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

good luck boys, and @Jim Beam i dont see my name on this so this is your mess.

 

[Enigma_87]

A great profile on Neeskens by Brian Davies, which is well worth a read:

Johan Neeskens – “The second greatest player in the world”

British football fans of a certain age, when asked to sum up the epitome of the ultimate representative of their national football values, would probably go for Bryan Robson with his all-action style, never-say-die attitude, uncanny knack of scoring important goals and seemingly indefatigable ability to drink 12 pints the night before an important game and still be man of the match. As a United fan, I am naturally biased but Robbo really was an inspiration, carrying the team on his (injury-ravaged) shoulders through many lean years and would surely be a pick in any best-ever United selection.

Yes, he was a great…

But to give those who never saw him play an idea of just how good Johan Neeskens was, I would say he was twice the player. One of the all-time greats, establishing a template for the modern midfielder. Fit, skilled, superb tackler, an eye for a pass, a dead ball specialist and not afraid to stick his foot in when it was needed (evidence for the prosecution – final second stage match against Brazil in Dortmund, 1974 – they started a row, he finished it).

Neeskens signed for Ajax in 1970 from his local side RCH Heemstede and was initially to make his mark at right-back, playing in that position in the first of Ajax’s three consecutive European Cup wins in 1971, aged 19, against Panathinaikos. On that day, the Ajax back four was Neeskens, Vasovic, Hulshoff and Suurbier… not bad at all! Equally gifted at baseball and basketball (and a keen goalkeeper in training) it was football where his talent was best suited.

The three wins in Europe plus the rise of the Dutch national side in the early 1970s brought these talents to a larger audience and it was no surprise when Barcelona enticed Neeskens to join Johan Cruyff in 1974. Earning the nickname among local fans of Johan Segon (“Johan the Second”), he was continually asked about what it was like, continually being in the shadow of Cruyff. “I don’t mind being the second greatest player in the world” was his amusing if hardly modest answer.

His time with the Catalan giants was not conspicuous by winning trophies – one domestic and one cup-winners cup being the total of his medals haul – but he did himself no favours during an incident which only came to light a few years ago. In 1978, Barça president, the all-powerful José Luis Núñez, was in the gents toilet when he noticed that there was no toilet paper left. He asked Neeskens, who was minding his own business in the stall next door, to pass him a roll. Out of mischief or maybe spite, he didn’t and Johan was on his way the next year. Oh well, it beats “tactical differences” or “training ground bust-up”.

It was around this time that the Americans were throwing money at “soccer”. Johan followed the money trail and got himself a lucrative contract with New York Cosmos which saw him spend five years there. Returning to Holland for a spell with Groningen, this was pretty much the end as far as a playing career was concerned but coaching beckoned, eventually.

Internationally, Neeskens was indeed a superstar. Two excellent world cup campaigns in 1974 (Germany) and 1978 (Argentina) saw him as a vital cog in what many would say (I certainly would) was the greatest team to never win the ultimate football trophy. The cool head required, to calmly put away Holland’s first-minute penalty against hosts Germany in that tournament’s final was typical of his big-game temperament, as were his performances four years later in far more hostile circumstances as Argentina’s rabid home support and fascist government did everything in their power to ensure their team were crowned champions. The fact that the Peru side had been bribed to lose their game against the hosts, which meant that Argentina qualified for the final at the expense of arch local rivals Brazil (who were a terrible side, devoid of any notion of the beautiful game, echoes of 1974), surely pointed to the fact that nothing would prevent a, tainted, win.

Neeskens and his teammates gave their all and took the match to extra time but to no avail, as amid hysterical scenes, Argentina scored two goals in added time. In between these tournaments, Holland qualified for the final stage of the 1976 European championships. Still with Cruyff and Willem van Hanegem in the squad, the Dutch were heavily fancied but the boorish Welsh referee Clive Thomas had other ideas and sent off Van Hanegem and Neeskens in the semi-final against Czechoslovakia. The Dutch lost 3-1 but got their act together for the (meaningless) third-place play off against hosts Yugoslavia to win 3-2.

After retirement, a coaching career seemed the obvious route. Small roles with small teams were the order of the day (taking in Euro lightweights such as Zug, Stafa and Singen – no, me neither), but a significant step up was taken when Neeskens became one of the coaching assistants to Guus Hiddink in the mid-nineties with the Dutch national team, staying on after his boss quit to be replaced by Frank Rijkaard for Euro 2000. Thereafter it was back to domestic matters, with a four year spell at NEC followed by rather undistinguished placements in Europe and Australia.

In March 2004, Pele, in association with FIFA, produced a list of the 100 Greatest Living Players, to celebrate 100 years of that organisation. Any lists of this nature are purely subjective and can rarely be described as definitive, but it was interesting to note that eight of those listed were former Ajax men. Alongside Johan Neeskens, there was Marco Van Basten, Dennis Bergkamp, Johan Cruyff, Edgar Davids, Patrick Kluivert, Frank Rijkaard and Clarence Seedorf. Nice to see that our wonderful club contributed almost a tenth of those selected. Then again, David Beckham was in the list so who can say how accurate it is?

I once saw a photograph (in a book from 1974 that I still have) of Johan Neeskens, blasting the ball, his face set in the kind of rictus grimace, beloved of box-to-box midfielders. The caption read “the fulminating shot of Johan Neeskens”. I didn’t know what “fulminating” meant but it sounded pretty bloody awesome. Like he was.

Some obligatory, spoilered videos:

Spoiler: Neeskens vs Czechoslovakia 1976 EURO

Spoiler: Neeskens vs Uruguay 1974 WC

Spoiler: Neeskens vs Indipendiente 1972

 

[Skizzo]

What happened to the character count limit in the intro?

 

[Enigma_87]

What happened to the character count limit in the intro?

ours is 2499.

 

[idmanager]

Stam and Ruggeri is as good as it gets to deal with CR and Robben. Absolutely love that front 3 especially Careca in this setup on paper though.

Davids and Neeskens again is what you would want ahead of Goncalves against Giresse and Laudrup.

Romario might be the difference maker.

 

[Enigma_87]

A great post on Nestor Goncalves by @Gio to sum him up.

I'm sure everyone is au fait with what Zidane and Falcao bring to the table, but anyone unfamiliar with Tito Goncalves is recommended to have a gander at the profile below:

Néstor Tito Gonçalves (Peñarol 1957-71)

In 1957, the club went into an economy drive, but it was clear that penny-pinching wasn’t going to also fix the problem of Nacional winning the last three league titles while the team transitioned. It was unacceptable. This prompted an initiative that would be the start of an ongoing advantage for Peñarol.

Uruguay has always been very Montevideo-centric since half the population live there. In fact, it is only in the last 20 years that teams outside the capital have participated in the Uruguayan League. But half the population doesn’t live there, and the brightest talents weren’t exactly urban types, so they created a formal (not fan-tip based) scout network to identify the best and brightest prospects from towns in the countryside.

This same approach would later be expanded when Real destroyed us (albeit, and crucially, with Tito injured) in the first Intercontinental Final. Their glamour, the way they had collected the best players imaginable, their entire setup… The Board decided the Argies and Brazilians would stay home, but the best of the rest of South America could be lured to come to Peñarol, as Uruguay was comparatively one of the wealthiest and so far the most successful football nation in the continent. And thus came the best players from Ecuador, Perú, Paraguay, Chile… That Peñarol side didn’t just boast the best of Uruguay, two best evers in their roles (nationally), but also the best player Ecuador and Chile ever had. Peñarol's 60s side boiled down to this: it was the "Rest of South America Select XI", playing together for a decade.

Anyhow, I digress, but in that trial run in early 1957, seven players were brought in and two of them would rightfully become club legends. They all went straight into the reserves for a bedding in period - with Cubilla famously complaining about it (“I didn’t leave my town to play for the Reserves”). The one that rose quicker went about things differently, working hard, always looking to learn from his seniors, and within six months everyone could tell that the massive gap left in midfield by Varela’s retirement was destined for him. The timing couldn’t be better, as captain Martínez was bound to have only 3-4 seasons left in him.

Legend has it that Obdulio Varela had left the club at the end of the 1956 season and hadn’t set foot in Las Acacias until he heard about this kid. He visited the club, spent a few hours with him and left for good never to return again safe in the knowledge that his legacy would be in good hands. His name was Néstor “Tito” Gonçalves, and by 1958 he was a nailed on starter. A one-club man, Gonçálves was a tough as nails defensive midfielder with an exceptional passing range, exactly what a deep-sitting counter-attacking side needed. With him from centre-to-left and Abbadie on the right, there was always a nearby outlet.

His arrival was a big contributing factor in kickstarting Peñarol’s most glorious and decorated period. Considered one of the 15 greatest teams of all time, his Peñarol went toe-to-toe regularly with Santos, Real Madrid and Benfica and delivered 9 league titles between 1958 and 1968, three Copa Libertadores wins, two Intercontinental Cup wins and the Intercontinental Cup Winners Supercup. It's on the back of this decade that when the IFFHS tallied up the scores Peñarol came first and was recognised as the Most Successful South American Club of the Century ("Champion of the Century").

His performance in the 1966 final decider is the stuff of legend. I'll have to write about that later but, with Peñarol 2-0 down halfway through the second half, it was his rearguard action (and assist to boot) that kickstarted an epic comeback. To this day an unlikely comeback turned into an onslaught and beating up of the rival is referred to as "ganar a lo Peñarol" (winning the Peñarol way). And to this day River Plate are referred to as "las gallinas" (chicken) for the manner of that defeat. River had everything: youth, a striker having a freak season (still the top scorer in a single Libertadores with 17), they were 2-0 up... What they lacked was the character to put up with the furious thrusts of a battle-hardened side leveraging their class, experience and sheer will to win. Spencer-Abbadie-Spencer-Rocha, 4-2. Is it any wonder what caught my imagination about United?

After retiring he stayed at the club as a coach, and has been heading Youth Development for almost fourty years now. He even managed to get his sperm to produce a CM who would be instrumental for Peñarol’s fifth Libertadores win in 1987*.

Legend.

Speaking at the team hotel after beating Real in Madrid. Peñarol won 4-0 on aggregate. Hours earlier in the dressing room he commented: "I don't know about you, but that was way too easy", and they all agreed: the game against River had been the highlight of their careers.

*The venue for that game was once again Santiago de Chile, and a Peñarol side featuring Gonçalves Jr. and Matosas Jr. beat three-times consecutive finalists América de Cali, 1-0, scoring in the 119:42 min, when a draw after ET would have handed it to the Colombians.

 

[Enigma_87]

Stam and Ruggeri is as good as it gets to deal with CR and Robben. Absolutely love that front 3 especially Careca in this setup on paper though.

Davids and Neeskens again is what you would want ahead of Goncalves against Giresse and Laudrup.

Romario might be the difference maker.

I'd say Godin and also Carvalho are pretty good fit for Romario tho. Godin is expert dealing with fast and skillful players and bossed Atletico's defence being the best in the league for several years on the trot. Carvalho as well is a fantastic defender on his own and one of the fastest on the deck at his peak. Both combined along with Tito shielding the defence makes our team well equipped in dealing with more cetnralized attack which Team Beam offers. Especially considering the Davids/Neeskens combo in midfield.

Whilst Stam is a good fit on Cristiano stylistically, both Gordillo and Ronaldo are more than capable of overloading that flank and create a clear route to goal.

I'd disagree that Ruggeri is a good fit to Robben however. Ruggeri is excellent in the air and also pretty solid on the deck, but Robben's explosivity and ability to seamlessly go trough the lines would make it pretty tough for either him or Sergi to handle.

Robben at his peak would power through with raw pace and both Ruggeri and Sergi lack the agility and ability to deal with a winger of his type.

In a counter attacking set up like ours and the right players in midfield - Neeskens, Tito, Davids we can change the tempo pretty quickly whilst also turning defence into offence in the blink of an eye. Our midfield line could quickly release the ball to the flanks where we have the advantage in Ronaldo and Robben considering the full backs they are against and then creating chances in the box or outside it.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Wow, Stam with hair!

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Robben at his peak would power through with raw pace and both Ruggeri and Sergi lack the agility to deal with a winger of his type.

Im sorry but what Sergi is probably the fastest and most agile player on the pitch, is that enoguh to stop Robben? Of course not but lets not go overboard...
Discussion for Team Jim Beam will be lead by the man himself but i had to react on this one.

 

[Jim Beam]

Ok, just to put few points ahead of this one.

Think there are goals in this one from both sides tbh, just think we have more of them and especially more ways to hurt the opposition through the way we play and the quality of our individuals.

- we are likely to have more of a possession and control of the game, not only because of brilliant passing ability of Redondo, Laudrup and Giresse (see that the opposition doesn't mention Giresse at all, so I would assume they don't see any big influence from him which is a mistake), but because the team is comfortable on the ball in every phase, from defence to attack.
- we are much more likely to open the opposition defence while they are in defensive phase, compared to them, as the team is not only build to have possession for the sake of it but has a much superior ability to open the defence with a through ball from various positions.
- if and when the opposition gets the ball at times (and they will get it at times as the quality of their midfield is such) they better score because the quality of our counter is also extremely high with such passers behind Romario and Butragueno.
- Romario is an absolute nightmare to deal with in this set-up and with this much passing ability behind him and Butragueno with his smart movement and technical ability is the perfect partner.

I can see opposition mainly rely on a counter, which is logical considering the profile of their players, but with Stam, Ruggeri and Schulz in defence along with 2 reliable wingbacks, they will not have so much joy.

 

[Enigma_87]

Im sorry but what Sergi is probably the fastest and most agile player on the pitch, is that enoguh to stop Robben? Of course not but lets not go overboard...
Discussion for Team Jim Beam will be lead by the man himself but i had to react on this one.

Too quick and in before the edit. I meant that Ruggeri lacks the agility and pace, whilst Sergi the defensive ability.

Obviously you'd disagree, but I don't really rate Sergi's defensive abilities that high. He was fast, very good dribbler and contributor in attack but not the defensively sound type you'd pick to square up against Robben.

A typical Cruyff player in any sense. Versatile can play in several positions, much like Reiziger, but against Robben he'd struggle to contain him.

 

[Enigma_87]

Quickly to address some points

- we are likely to have more of a possession and control of the game, not only because of brilliant passing ability of Redondo, Laudrup and Giresse (see that the opposition doesn't mention Giresse at all, so I would assume they don't see any big influence from him which is a mistake), but because the team is comfortable on the ball in every phase, from defence to attack.

Think whilst your midfield is pretty good on the ball and in terms of passing range it lacks defensive solidity. Especially considering who they are up against. Giresse and Laudrup won't put that much work in the defensive phase as both relied on players like Fernandes and Tigana to do the running for them. That would leave Redondo a bit isolated in the middle.

- we are much more likely to open the opposition defence while they are in defensive phase, compared to them, as the team is not only build to have possession for the sake of it but has a much superior ability to open the defence with a through ball from various positions.

On the flip side your side is pretty central focused. Your only source of width is Sergi and Armfield as even Laudrup has to be more central this game as it would open a lot of gaps in the middle, which we can quickly exploit. Our core and spine is probably as good as it gets in Godin,Carvalho, Tito, Neeskens and Davids to counter a more central threat. Clemence also was pretty good in reading the game and intercepting crosses.

- if and when the opposition gets the ball at times (and they will get it at times as the quality of their midfield is such) they better score because the quality of our counter is also extremely high with such passers behind Romario and Butragueno.

Well we have the best goalscorer on the pitch in Ronaldo, his credentials IMO go without saying and Careca and Robben are also pretty great finishers, especially given the space and time.

- Romario is an absolute nightmare to deal with in this set-up and with this much passing ability behind him and Butragueno with his smart movement and technical ability is the perfect partner.

Romario is obviously a top forward, but it's not a task that Godin or Carvalho didn't face over the years. Particularly Godin has the acumen of dealing with players like Cristiano, Messi, Neymar, Suarez and the likes. He has the credentials to make it a fair fight.

I can see opposition mainly rely on a counter, which is logical considering the profile of their players, but with Stam, Ruggeri and Schulz in defence along with 2 reliable wingbacks, they will not have so much joy.

Schulz isn't the best choice in a higher line so when you push up and the ball and player get past Ruggeri or Stam Schulz isn't the type of player to stop Cristiano or Robben at full pelt.

 

[2mufc0]

This is a tough choice, jheeze. Well drafted all.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Few match compilations for potentially lesser knows players:
Emilio Butragueno

Spoiler: great performance against Inter

Spoiler: knocking Maradona's Napoli out from the EC

Jimmy Armfield

Spoiler: vs Brazil at WC

Alain Giresse

Spoiler: Giresse vs Denmark

 

[Jim Beam]

I'd say Godin and also Carvalho are pretty good fit for Romario tho. Godin is expert dealing with fast and skillful players and bossed Atletico's defence being the best in the league for several years on the trot. Carvalho as well is a fantastic defender on his own and one of the fastest on the deck at his peak. Both combined along with Tito shielding the defence makes our team well equipped in dealing with more cetnralized attack which Team Beam offers. Especially considering the Davids/Neeskens combo in midfield.

Don't agree. Atletico and Godin play very deep and not sure about Godin dealing with fast and skilful players, especially one of Romario's type. It has also a lot to do with Atletico set-up (not saying Godin is a great defender, but it helps). Put Butragueno in that equation and they will have a very hard time as both of the attackers are capable of dropping from the penalty box to pick up the ball and disorientate the central defenders with their dribbling and movement (Emilio was also brilliant in this aspects of his game). Count all the passing potential behind them, Romario's being on the shoulder of the defender style when he feels that the ball may come in, and I fully doubt they can contain them.

I'd disagree that Ruggeri is a good fit to Robben however. Ruggeri is excellent in the air and also pretty solid on the deck, but Robben's explosivity and ability to seamlessly go trough the lines would make it pretty tough for either him or Sergi to handle.

You already answered this one, but Robben won't have it easy for sure. Sergi was extremely quick. Ruggeri while being excellent in the air, had the exceptional ball-winning ability. And he has to run through both of them.

 

[Enigma_87]

Don't agree. Atletico and Godin play very deep and not sure about Godin dealing with fast and skilful players, especially one of Romario's type. It has also a lot to do with Atletico set-up (not saying Godin is a great defender, but it helps). Put Butragueno in that equation and they will have a very hard time as both of the attackers are capable of dropping from the penalty box to pick up the ball and disorientate the central defenders with their dribbling and movement (Emilio was also brilliant in this aspects of his game). Count all the passing potential behind them, Romario's being on the shoulder of the defender style when he feels that the ball may come in, and I fully doubt they can contain them.

That's a bit of a myth that I don't believe even @Šjor Bepo would agree with mate. Godin excelled in Uruguay set up which plays in very versatile style and formations and Godin has excelled in all throughout the years. Godin himself was the best CB at the WC most recently and put some immense performances. He isn't playing high line here either so that's a bit of a moot point.

You already answered this one, but Robben won't have it easy for sure. Sergi was extremely quick. Ruggeri while being excellent in the air, had the exceptional ball-winning ability. And he has to run through both of them.

If you sum up Sergi's and Ruggeri's qualities into one I'd might agree with you, but what Sergi lacks Ruggeri also lacks and vice versa. Also Sergi is your main width provider on the flank, hence the possibility to be caught high up the pitch is very big.

 

[idmanager]

Ruggeri not being a good fit is ridiculous. Played the exact same role and position for Argentina in 1986 with equally average support from the wings.

 

[Enigma_87]

Ruggeri not being a good fit is ridiculous. Played the exact same role and position for Argentina in 1986 with equally average support from the wings.

I said stylistically mate, not in terms of positioning. I don't mind him as a LCB in a back five, not at all. My point is that Robben is well equipped to exploit the pocket of space left by Sergi, who is the main width provider on that side for Team Beam and Ruggeri when they are higher up the pitch.

Neither Ruggeri, nor Stam, nor Schulz are also ball playing defenders and Robben's and Careca pressing higher up the pitch can cause a lot of problems.

 

[Jim Beam]

Think whilst your midfield is pretty good on the ball and in terms of passing range it lacks defensive solidity. Especially considering who they are up against. Giresse and Laudrup won't put that much work in the defensive phase as both relied on players like Fernandes and Tigana to do the running for them. That would leave Redondo a bit isolated in the middle.

Not only they are pretty good on the ball, but the whole team are. In the defensive phase, they are going back to the classical 5-3-2 which you will have trouble to break, especially from the flanks. Even if you think Laudrup and Giresse won't contribute much in defensive phase (and they will, they will fully mark their zone) you have 6 great defending players behind them.

On the flip side your side is pretty central focused. Your only source of width is Sergi and Armfield as even Laudrup has to be more central this game as it would open a lot of gaps in the middle, which we can quickly exploit. Our core and spine is probably as good as it gets in Godin,Carvalho, Tito, Neeskens and Davids to counter a more central threat. Clemence also was pretty good in reading the game and intercepting crosses.

It isn't. The wingbacks are extremely important for our control and possession thing to work to full extent (not mentioning they also had pretty good delivery in both of them). They will move to form 3-1-4-2 in the attacking phase. Count Redondo linking behind and Butragueno linking forward and you'll suddenly have multiple options to pass to and which will make it hard even for your midfield to cut off.

Well we have the best goalscorer on the pitch in Ronaldo, his credentials IMO go without saying and Careca and Robben are also pretty great finishers, especially given the space and time.

Which version of Ronaldo are you even using here, just curious?

Schulz isn't the best choice in a higher line so when you push up and the ball and player get past Ruggeri or Stam Schulz isn't the type of player to stop Cristiano or Robben at full pelt.

So, just to confirm, Ronaldo and Robben will most of the time, each face wingback on their side, a world-class defender and Schulz in the end. Don't know how Schulz helps their case to be honest.

 

[idmanager]

I said stylistically mate, not in terms of positioning. I don't mind him as a LCB in a back five, not at all. My point is that Robben is well equipped to exploit the pocket of space left by Sergi, who is the main width provider on that side for Team Beam and Ruggeri when they are higher up the pitch.

Neither Ruggeri, nor Stam, nor Schulz are also ball playing defenders and Robben's and Careca pressing higher up the pitch can cause a lot of problems.

Even stylistically I dont see any problem to be honest. For all his pace, Robben eventually had to cut in 9/10 times. I would expect Ruggeri to read him pretty well and position accordingly.

What I do agree with is playing a high line with Ruggeri/Schulz can be really dangerous and a recipe for disaster against that front 3.

Not sure if I saw a high line tactic in the OP. Will have to re-read

 

[Jim Beam]

That's a bit of a myth that I don't believe even @Šjor Bepo would agree with mate. Godin excelled in Uruguay set up which plays in very versatile style and formations and Godin has excelled in all throughout the years. Godin himself was the best CB at the WC most recently and put some immense performances. He isn't playing high line here either so that's a bit of a moot point.

He is a very good defender, I just can't see Romario or Butragueno being cut off considering the setup. But, just to clear this one here while you mentioning it. Does your defence play in a deeper line here?

 

[Jim Beam]

What I do agree with is playing a high line with Ruggeri/Schulz can be really dangerous and a recipe for disaster against that front 3.

We are not playing a high line.

 

[idmanager]

@Jim Beam , would be good to know a bit more about Armfield and his style. Probably the least known player for me.

Also, not sure about the outward arrow on Giresse. Always thought of him as someone who liked to drift leftwards. (Watched very little, but of what I have watched, I have never seen him run out wide right)

 

[Enigma_87]

Not only they are pretty good on the ball, but the whole team are. In the defensive phase, they are going back to the classical 5-3-2 which you will have trouble to break, especially from the flanks. Even if you think Laudrup and Giresse won't contribute much in defensive phase (and they will, they will fully mark their zone) you have 6 great defending players behind them.

Don't think your central defence is to be honest. Ruggeri, Stam and Schulz aren't ball playing defenders so you'll need Redondo to drop deeper to orchestrate the play. Also Robben and Careca are perfectly capable to dispossess them, as already mentioned with their pressing ability.

Laudrup and Giresse are far from defensively solid midfielders mate and they are up against Tito, Davids and Neeskens. It's a bit of gulf of quality in the defensive phase which will overwhelm Redondo.

It isn't. The wingbacks are extremely important for our control and possession thing to work to full extent (not mentioning they also had pretty good delivery in both of them). They will move to form 3-1-4-2 in the attacking phase. Count Redondo linking behind and Butragueno linking forward and you'll suddenly have multiple options to pass to and which will make it hard even for your midfield to cut off.

Which is exactly my point. In possession your team will be susceptible on quick counters which practically suits our gameplan to a tee. You'd need both of your full backs to be higher up the pitch in possession to provide the width.

Which version of Ronaldo are you even using here, just curious?

The peak Madrid one. The setup is basically the same - an attacking full back in Gordillo and Ronaldo as LWF cutting in.

So, just to confirm, Ronaldo and Robben will most of the time, each face wingback on their side, a world-class defender and Schulz in the end. Don't know how Schulz helps their case to be honest.

I just don't see it mate. When we're on a counter your full backs will be higher up. A bit like Marcelo is when playing for Real. Robben and Ronaldo will face either Ruggeri or Stam with them facing the goal.

Especially if you are going in 3-4-1-2 as you mentioned in possession.

 

[Enigma_87]

He is a very good defender, I just can't see Romario or Butragueno being cut off considering the setup. But, just to clear this one here while you mentioning it. Does your defence play in a deeper line here?

Deeper to normal. Mixture between Atletico and Real actually. We have an attacking left back, balanced right back and two very solid CB pair.
Godin isn't just a very good defender mate.

I'll just quote Sjor which describes him pretty well:

.....

But what i dont get is the criticism and underrating of Godin. The guy is comfortably the best defender in the world for the last 5, 6 years if not more. In the era where every dog and their bone can score 20+ goals, where there are goal scoring records being broken almost every week this guy built a fortress and lead his team to the league title next to Ronaldo's Madrid and Messi's Barcelona, not only that he lead his team towards 2 CL finals and his team pretty much always has the best defence in the league(pure guess, cant be bothered to check) and i wouldnt be surprised if they were among top 3 in top 5 leagues even though LaLiga clubs play the best football offensive wise.

And that is before some masterclass displays he produced the last world cup.

A bit more on that sense:

The case for the defence: Why Godin deserves to be considered the world's best

“If this 20 million offer from Manchester United arrives for Godín, will you consider it?”

Diego Simeone couldn’t believe what he was hearing: “How much?”

“Twenty million.” the journalist replied.

Simeone took a sharp intake of breath and glanced away, as if to catch himself before he said something he shouldn’t. Even then, he couldn’t help but ridicule the suggestion.

“We’re better off talking about something else,” he laughed. “Twenty? How much?” the coach asked in disbelief, this time sticking his head forward in the universal are you serious gesture. “Twenty? Godín? That must be a mistake. That must be a mistake…” He chuckled then moved on to the next question.

The incident from a press conference in early December is but a minor chapter in a long list of insults towards Diego Godín’s quality. In an era where David Luiz commands a £50 million (€65m) fee, no wonder Simeone could only laugh at the notion of his prized defender being purchased for less than a third of that figure.


Forgotten man

Just as he must have laughed in disbelief upon learning the results of the FIFA FifPro World XI vote earlier this month. Despite breaking Barcelona and Real Madrid’s 10-year La Liga dominance, as well as coming within minutes of winning the Champions League, not a single Atlético player featured.

Godín, the rock at the back for a side that relies on defending more than most (conceding the fewest goals in La Liga last season) didn’t even make the reserve XI. Nor even the third team. In fact, you have continue all the way to the fourth side for a mention of the Uruguayan, who was judged to have had a poorer year than Gerard Piqué, Mats Hummels and Luiz, to name a few.

The outcome of the vote in which 23,383 professionals participated doesn’t exactly help to debunk the common perception that footballers aren’t always the brightest types. For a while, Atlético could be considered a cult team, but their prominence both domestically and in European competition over the last year means even the most casual football observer will have watched them on multiple occasions.

What those professionals failed see in Godín in comparison to the 300,000 plus UEFA.com users who did vote him into their own team of the year – or indeed FourFourTwo, who ranked Godin as the world's top centre-back in the FFT100 – is hard to grasp. The latter result is a far better reflection of where he really stands at this moment in time: quite possibly the best defender in the world.

Value judgements are always open to debate, but try to think of times where Godín has put a foot wrong during his club’s recent success. It’s certainly more difficult than listing the things he has done incredibly well. Atlético’s strength as a unit is evidently their biggest weapon, but that can sometimes mask the reality that within the unit there are some exceptional individuals. The centre-back, their most-used outfield player this season, is certainly one of those players.

To some extent the consistency of his partnership with Joao Miranda last year made it difficult to value one player over the other, but this year the Uruguayan has proved which of the pair is really vital. While the Brazilian has dipped in and out of starting line-ups due to both injury and competition from José María Giménez, Godín has been a constant, absolutely indispensable for Simeone in his quest to match the heady heights of last season and always playing 90 minutes.

So far in 2014/15 the only games the Argentine coach has allowed his most-trusted player to rest in were two cup fixtures against third division CE l’Hospitalet. When Real Madrid came calling in the next round, there was little doubt over who would be marshalling the back four in the derby.

That tie served as a much better marker of where Godín ranks in world football than FifPro falling hook, line and sinker for the marketing machine. Showing off anticipation, muscle in the air and goal-line clearances, in the second leg at the Bernabéu in particular, he was a wall for the Colchoneros against the club champions of the world. Much was made of Fernando Torres’s brace but it was Godín who made sure the night was remembered for El Niño’s return and not a horror show from keeper Jan Oblak that could easily have cost Atléti the tie.

Man for all occasions

Paradoxically, Godín is made to seem unspectacular by his consistency. The Atlético No.2 doesn’t dive in for camera-grabbing slide tackles that make the YouTube highlight reels. Instead, he’s far more likely to stand his ground and frustrate, or step up and win the ball before a recovery is even necessary.

An exceptionally clean defender, he has only committed 13 fouls in La Liga this season, compared to bigger-name rivals like Sergio Ramos who has done so 27 times and Dani Alves, with 29.

In the Champions League his number of fouls drops even lower, to four. That accuracy in the tackle, combined with the 56 passes the Uruguayan has intercepted and 23 balls he has robbed in the league suggest he is a much more intelligent defender than some would give him credit for.

Perhaps those who still don’t rate him are of the school of thought that says modern defenders need to do more than simply defend well to be considered among the elite. But even then, it is easy to fight the Atlético man’s case.

He may not make eye-catching cross-field diagonal balls that players like Ramos or Piqué attempt more frequently, but he does contribute significantly to his team’s attacking play when the moment is right.

An obvious example came against Granada last Sunday, when Godín stepped up to win the ball on the edge of his own area, quickly and accurately played it forward into midfield, then continued his run all the way into the opposition box before winning the penalty that broke the deadlock.

Atlético are a relatively conservative team, so examples of Godín bombing forward like the above are perhaps few and far between, but one reflection of attacking quality that he does produce on a near weekly basis comes from set-pieces.

As dangerous a player in the air as there is, last season he scored no fewer than eight headers in all competitions for Atlético. That included putting them ahead in the Champions League final and, most notably, the bullet header that won the league at the Camp Nou in May. This season he has already scored four, continuing to win points at both ends of the pitch.

On Wednesday night, Godín will return to the scene of May’s triumph to face Barcelona in the Copa del Rey. Back to the same stadium where, after the final whistle in the last game of the 2013/14 edition of La Liga, Simeone told him: “Godin, you’re going to be part of Atlético history!”

Recognition from one of the finest coaches around will likely mean more to the defender than snubs in awards lists or elsewhere, but it is disheartening to see how much of a difference PR power can make.

Is the quality of a footballer measured in merchandise sales or ability? It’s increasingly hard to tell these days.

 

[Enigma_87]

We are not playing a high line.

How do you have most of the possession game plan to work with a deeper line then?

 

[Enigma_87]

Even stylistically I dont see any problem to be honest. For all his pace, Robben eventually had to cut in 9/10 times. I would expect Ruggeri to read him pretty well and position accordingly.

What I do agree with is playing a high line with Ruggeri/Schulz can be really dangerous and a recipe for disaster against that front 3.

Not sure if I saw a high line tactic in the OP. Will have to re-read

If their plan is to dominate possession and have the formation transform into 3-4-1-2 then you have to have that back three in high line. It's just how transition work really. Doesn't make sense to have 20-30 yards of space between the lines otherwise.

 

[Jim Beam]

Which is exactly my point. In possession your team will be susceptible on quick counters which practically suits our gameplan to a tee. You'd need both of your full backs to be higher up the pitch in possession to provide the width.

You need both of your attacking wingers to track them back as you will never see the ball considering the number of options we will have otherwise.

Don't think your central defence is to be honest. Ruggeri, Stam and Schulz aren't ball playing defenders so you'll need Redondo to drop deeper to orchestrate the play. Also Robben and Careca are perfectly capable to dispossess them, as already mentioned with their pressing ability.

We will just have to disagree on this one mate. All of Ruggeri, Stam and Schulz while not being world beaters, are quite comfortable with the ball. Don't see so much issue here.

The peak Madrid one. The setup is basically the same - an attacking full back in Gordillo and Ronaldo as LWF cutting in.

Having an attacking full back in Gordillo which will try to replicate Marcelo isn't basically the same setup. The rest of that Madrid team in terms of creativity and supply is much superior to this one imo. And Stam is basically a perfect defender to contain him, especially with 3 at the back.

 

[Enigma_87]

You need both of your attacking wingers to track them back as you will never see the ball considering the number of options we will have otherwise.

Why would we need Ronaldo to track back? Your width comes only from your full backs. Gordillo and Panucci are perfectly fine defenders to cope with Armfield and Sergi on their own.

We will just have to disagree on this one mate. All of Ruggeri, Stam and Schulz while not being world beaters, are quite comfortable with the ball. Don't see so much issue here.

How so? Stam didn't play in possession set up, neither Ruggeri or Schulz. Ruggeri had Passarella next to him as a ball playing CB with the huge inclination of going forward. Can you give example of their ball playing ability from the back?

Having an attacking full back in Gordillo which will try to replicate Marcelo isn't basically the same setup. The rest of that Madrid team in terms of creativity and supply is much superior to this one imo. And Stam is basically a perfect defender to contain him, especially with 3 at the back.

We aren't playing the same set up mate, just to make it clear. Just trying to explain how our defence works. We have 4 bodies at the back when we're attacking and we will have a spare man to cover your attack.

 

[Jim Beam]

How do you have most of the possession game plan to work with a deeper line then?

You don't have to put your defensive line so high up or close to centre circle to dominate possession, especially in a team where Redondo orchestrates the attack and you have so many passing options. You basically have Redondo-Laudrup-Giresse supreme passing trio, supported by wingbacks and Butragueno to link the attack.

 

[Jim Beam]

Why would we need Ronaldo to track back? Your width comes only from your full backs. Gordillo and Panucci are perfectly fine defenders to cope with Armfield and Sergi on their own.

Ok, you will leave Carvalho and Godin one vs one with Romario and Butragueno then? Sounds good.

How so? Stam didn't play in possession set up, neither Ruggeri or Schulz. Ruggeri had Passarella next to him as a ball playing CB with the huge inclination of going forward. Can you give example of their ball playing ability from the back?

No problem will try to dig some of the examples later on.

 

[Enigma_87]

You don't have to put your defensive line so high up or close to centre circle to dominate possession, especially in a team where Redondo orchestrates the attack and you have so many passing options. You basically have Redondo-Laudrup-Giresse supreme passing trio, supported by wingbacks and Butragueno to link the attack.

And you will have 20-30 yards gap between your midfield line and your defence line?

A typical 3-4-3 that Chelsea and Conte play:

You only have one DM and neither Giresse nor Laudrup are very useful in the defensive phase.

you can have it 1-2 in the attack instead of 3 attackers which also makes your attack narrower and depends even more on the wingbacks to provide the width. You need both your LCB and RCB to be close to the central line to balance it out.

 

[Enigma_87]

Ok, you will leave Carvalho and Godin one vs one with Romario and Butragueno then? Sounds good.



No problem will try to dig some of the examples later on.

Erm, we have Tito as anchor? As I've said we always have a spare man at the back.

 

[Enigma_87]

@Jim Beam are you playing like this in possession then?

 

[Jim Beam]

Erm, we have Tito as anchor? As I've said we always have a spare man at the back.

Tito has his hand already full as Laudrup and Giresse imo as they will constantly try to run into free space with the ball or. Both of them are a great attacking threat on their own...

@Enigma_87 have to leave a bit, will just put some post about Laudrup - Romario and come back a bit later this evening to answer some of these.

@Šjor Bepo will probably take over.