P&G Draft - R1: Physiocrat vs Skizzo

With players at their career peak, who would win?

  • Total voters
    25
  • Poll closed .
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
I'm not sure about this. Having classic top tier wingers and then get your fullback to move into the midfield rather than overlapping?
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Well firstly, I wanted to play a modern version of the 235 so that's how they setup. On a more substantive point you don't need overlapping full-backs when Overath and Gullit can drift wide to create two on ones. I picked both of them since both played as left and right wingers respectively during their careers. So they could underlap or overlap as the situation dictates, but especially with Matthews there will be few options to overlap. Also having Lahm and Alaba in midfield gives me more passing option and them not overlapping and being a little deeper gives me more defensive solidity especially in contrast to a 433 in which both full-backs bomb on at the same time.
 
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Physiocrat said:
They could well find some pockets and you're right Barca were great at finding small spaces but again this is the best defence and midfield they have ever faced who are playing deep and narrow. There will be very little space for them to exploit.
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The same argument goes the other way though too. This is the best attack/midfield/team/unit/however you want to refer to it that your center backs have faced. Or your midfield.
 
Physiocrat said:
Well firstly, I wanted to play a modern version of the 235 so that's how they setup. On a more substantive point you don't need overlapping full-backs when Overath and Gullit can drift wide to create two on ones. I picked both of them since both played as left and right wingers respectively during their careers. So they could underlap or overlap as the situation dictates. Also having Lahm and Alaba in midfield gives me more passing option and them not overlapping and being a little deeper gives me more defensive solidity especially in contrast to a 433 in which both full-backs bomb on at the same time.
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The player peaks don't really match the tactics. Lahm drifted to midfield at sunset of his career and Alaba was better as a overlapping left back imo. Both Gullit and Overath are free role players and I don't recall them having a top time as wingers.

A more classical approach as a 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 hybrid would suit your team better. I don't think the modern 2-3-5 tactic gets the best out of this team. Overath in 1974 WC finals is the setup that suits your team best, imo.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Simonsen always tends to be a little unappreciated in these drafts. Simonsen/Dani Alves is a fantastic flank on it's own. It's unlikely that Skoglund will offer much help in the defensive phase and both could overwhelm Alaba here. Especially since Alaba has instructions to tuck inside.

Messi although having it tough against McGrath would have some joy between the lines and when Alaba is pulled out wide.

Think Physio should've played Gullit at #10 and closer to goal. With those wingers and crossing the ball in the box having both Nistelrooy and Gullit would be immense. But having him in deeper position IMO would capitalize on that advantage.

Bit on the fence here and giving the edge to @Skizzo due to that right flank.
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Alves and Simonsen is his most potent flank that's true. Skoglund isn't Nedved off the ball but he's not just going to stand high and wide. Overath can also help out on occasions. That would give Xaviesta more space to switch it wide to Luis Enrique or to play it through the middle but I'd rather the ball be wide left than right.

Gullit is instructed to get forward when attacking and whilst he wouldn't be quite as potent playing as close to goal he will have plenty of opportunity to arrive a little later in the box to exploit his incredible heading ability.
 
Physiocrat said:
Alves and Simonsen is his most potent flank that's true. Skoglund isn't Nedved off the ball but he's not just going to stand high and wide. Overath can also help out on occasions. That would give Xaviesta more space to switch it wide to Luis Enrique or to play it through the middle but I'd rather the ball be wide left than right.

Gullit is instructed to get forward when attacking and whilst he wouldn't be quite as potent playing as close to goal he will have plenty of opportunity to arrive a little later in the box to exploit his incredible heading ability.
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Will go a bit more in detail later when I get home, but to me a counter attacking 4-4-2 is the way to go against this Skizzo set up.

Gullit and RvN in the box with those wingers providing crosses is a must to exploit IMHO.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
The player peaks don't really match the tactics. Lahm drifted to midfield at sunset of his career and Alaba was better as a overlapping left back imo. Both Gullit and Overath are free role players and I don't recall them having a top time as wingers.

A more classical approach as a 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 hybrid would suit your team better. I don't think the modern 2-3-5 tactic gets the best out of this team. Overath in 1974 WC finals is the setup that suits your team best, imo.
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Gullit isn't playing in a role too dissimilar to when he played at Milan, despite him being positioned further forward there he was still esentially a goal scoring 8. Of course it is true neither Gullit or Overath were wingers at their peak but they aren't playing as wingers. All I'm saying is that it shows they have the ability to drift wide. Overath was a midfield playmaker which is exactly what he is doing here. With respect to Lahm he did turn into a right-half towards the end of his career but I don't think he became that much mroe intelligent later in his career and could have played that position exceptionally when he was younger. The reason he didn't play like that is it is essentially just Pep these days who plays with left and right-halfs. Alaba is a good overlapper but he did play really well in a similar role for Pep.

I did consider playing Gullit at 10 to help neutralise Guardiola but wanted a proper DM to help nullify Messi. Also I don't think Skoglund and Matthews would provide enough defensive cover with a classic 4231.
 
To be fair the biggest criticism I have of @Skizzo's side is Alves and Alba — a big part of Pep's tactics was Abidal's role compensating for Alves' exploits.
It's hard for Skizzo though, as obviously we're going to compare his team to Pep's Barca and see all the faults that are mainly due to the budget system.

I like @Physiocrat's set up and especially Alaba/Lahm roles to limit Skizzo's midfield... but if Alves breaks loose, it's going to be a massacre (but you can't really be well-covered for both central and wide threat, you have to prioritise).
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
I'm not sure about this. Having classic top tier wingers and then get your fullback to move into the midfield rather than overlapping?
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Matthews doesn't need overlapping fullbacks, he played without one all his career
 
Skizzo said:
The same argument goes the other way though too. This is the best attack/midfield/team/unit/however you want to refer to it that your center backs have faced. Or your midfield.
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It kind of doesn't since my team never existed. I think the only players who played together were Alaba and Lahm. With your side you can just point to Pep's Barca and say look, they steamrolled almost all the sides they played so this will happen again. My point is, it is highly unlikely to do it again given how good my midfield and defence is.

Whilst Pep's Barca was a better side than the triple consecutive CL winning Real side, that they didn't win it back to back shows that they are beatable. And with Matthews and Skoglund being fed by Overath, exploiting the space behind Alves and Alba to cross to RVN or a late arriving Gullit I definitely have a good number of goals in me.
 
harms said:
To be fair the biggest criticism I have of @Skizzo's side is Alves and Alba — a big part of Pep's tactics was Abidal's role compensating for Alves' exploits.
It's hard for Skizzo though, as obviously we're going to compare his team to Pep's Barca and see all the faults that are mainly due to the budget system.
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And thank @Pat_Mustard for stockpiling all the left backs :lol:

I like @Physiocrat's set up and especially Alaba/Lahm roles to limit Skizzo's midfield... but if Alves breaks loose, it's going to be a massacre (but you can't really be well-covered for both central and wide threat, you have to prioritise).
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Alves on the wide threat is a great route for us, as him and Messi have proven for seasons now. On the flip side, Simonsen-Alves is a flank that demands attention in its own, and having Alaba squeeze centrally leaves them free, or on the flip side, having Alaba hold wide opens the space centrally to work through. Pick your poison. Barça were the masters of poking different areas until one opened up to exploit with a sublime pass or mercurial dribble.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Will go a bit more in detail later when I get home, but to me a counter attacking 4-4-2 is the way to go against this Skizzo set up.

Gullit and RvN in the box with those wingers providing crosses is a must to exploit IMHO.
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This is my response to EAP regarding a similar position just in case you missed it.

Gullit isn't playing in a role too dissimilar to when he played at Milan, despite him being positioned further forward there he was still esentially a goal scoring 8. Of course it is true neither Gullit or Overath were wingers at their peak but they aren't playing as wingers. All I'm saying is that it shows they have the ability to drift wide. Overath was a midfield playmaker which is exactly what he is doing here. With respect to Lahm he did turn into a right-half towards the end of his career but I don't think he became that much mroe intelligent later in his career and could have played that position exceptionally when he was younger. The reason he didn't play like that is it is essentially just Pep these days who plays with left and right-halfs. Alaba is a good overlapper but he did play really well in a similar role for Pep.

I did consider playing Gullit at 10 to help neutralise Guardiola but wanted a proper DM to help nullify Messi. Also I don't think Skoglund and Matthews would provide enough defensive cover with a classic 4231.
 
Physiocrat said:
It kind of doesn't since my team never existed. I think the only players who played together were Alaba and Lahm. With your side you can just point to Pep's Barca and say look, they steamrolled almost all the sides they played so this will happen again. My point is, it is highly unlikely to do it again given how good my midfield and defence is.

Whilst Pep's Barca was a better side than the triple consecutive CL winning Real side, that they didn't win it back to back shows that they are beatable. And with Matthews and Skoglund being fed by Overath, exploiting the space behind Alves and Alba to cross to RVN or a late arriving Gullit I definitely have a good number of goals in me.
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Then therein lies an argument in itself, or a question rather. While it’s a fantasy draft, and you give certain leeway in different players working together, it should be a benefit to have seen how masterful these players were together. We can hypothesize on how well Overath would press Xavi and try and spring a forward pass....but we’ve seen first hand how Xavi finds Iniesta, moves a few yards into space, gets the ball back, receives it again and without looking up or breaking stride finds Messi on the move. They aren’t only great players in their own right, they’re proven that they elevate their own game beyond to an elite level never before seen at that level.
 
Skizzo said:
Then therein lies an argument in itself, or a question rather. While it’s a fantasy draft, and you give certain leeway in different players working together, it should be a benefit to have seen how masterful these players were together. We can hypothesize on how well Overath would press Xavi and try and spring a forward pass....but we’ve seen first hand how Xavi finds Iniesta, moves a few yards into space, gets the ball back, receives it again and without looking up or breaking stride finds Messi on the move. They aren’t only great players in their own right, they’re proven that they elevate their own game beyond to an elite level never before seen at that level.
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This is up to voters as to how they weight proven partnerships and hypothetical ones. For me, I don't give extra weight to proven partnerships unless it was proven they were rubbish together. If they have complimentary skill sets in a coherent tactical system I would regard them the same as a proven partnership, assuming their ability was equal.
 
Physiocrat said:
This is up to voters as to how they weight proven partnerships and hypothetical ones. For me, I don't give extra weight to proven partnerships unless it was proven they were rubbish together. If they have complimentary skill sets in a coherent tactical system I would regard them the same as a proven partnership, assuming their ability was equal.
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It’s certainly not the be all, end all, as it’s fantasy drafts after all. But if part of the argument is that Barça haven’t faced your players, then on the flip side, it’s worth taking into account that that unit is one of the best that’s ever played, and were proven in elevating their game beyond the sum of their parts.
 
Physiocrat said:
Have a watch of this video. He's playing on the right here but you can see how he drops deep and roams centrally too. He is also incredibly quick, just wait for it.

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Physiocrat said:
He did play in the 10 position for Milan but he was hardly a classic 10. He was incredibly mobile and hardworking team playing forward who was also excellent in the air. He didn't need the play to always go through him and dropped deep. As I noted in the OP he also played as a right winger. I think he is best described as an goal scoring/attacking 8 rather than a 10. As such I think he's very well suited to his role in my side.
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Cheers he certainly has the power and dribbling needed to break the barca press.

Also, pet peeve but nobody is roasting alves. His defense gets seriously underrated on here, he mostly kept ronaldo quiet whenever they faced each other.
 
MJJ said:
Cheers he certainly has the power and dribbling needed to break the barca press.

Also, pet peeve but nobody is roasting alves. His defense gets seriously underrated on here, he mostly kept ronaldo quiet whenever they faced each other.
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Possibly I'm underrating his defence a bit but there is space to exploit. My best route is Matthews vs Alba which will be carnage. I do think as well the Real sides that Baraca side faced weren't particularly cohesive as I pointed out earlier. At best it was Xabi Alonso, Ozil and Lassana Diarra in midfield. Hardly the energetic and technically accomplished midfield you'd want against Barca.
 
Physiocrat said:
Possibly I'm underrating his defence a bit but there is space to exploit. My best route is Matthews vs Alba which will be carnage. I do think as well the Real sides that Baraca side faced weren't particularly cohesive as I pointed out earlier. At best it was Xabi Alonso, Ozil and Lassana Diarra in midfield. Hardly the energetic and technically accomplished midfield you'd want against Barca.
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Yeah I can see you cause a lot of damage down alba's side, dont really rate him much. The match is very tight however I feel like alves and messi will be too much for alaba to handle.
 
Physiocrat said:
Possibly I'm underrating his defence a bit but there is space to exploit. My best route is Matthews vs Alba which will be carnage. I do think as well the Real sides that Baraca side faced weren't particularly cohesive as I pointed out earlier. At best it was Xabi Alonso, Ozil and Lassana Diarra in midfield. Hardly the energetic and technically accomplished midfield you'd want against Barca.
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There’s gonna be even more space to exploit when you’re asking your full backs to squeeze centrally. A flank of Alves-Simonsen is already gonna cause issues for Alaba. That’s carnage already. Factor in the fact that we’ll have the majority of possession, and add in Alves link up with Messi as well, and that whole pocket on that side would be devastating.
 


For all the talk of carnage, this man is also going to be tearing Alaba, and that’s before factoring in Messi, Alves linking hip, and Alaba being tasked with defending wide and moving centrally to the midfield.

The only player to have scored in the European Cup, UEFA Cup, and Cup Winners Cup finals, he’s going to see a lot more of the ball than the opposition, giving him more chances to wreak havoc.
 
I miss a physical presence in Skizzo's backfield. Gullit is gonna break through again and again, no one of enough quality to stop him in the middle.
 
Don Alfredo said:
I miss a physical presence in Skizzo's backfield. Gullit is gonna break through again and again, no one of enough quality to stop him in the middle.
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Fair enough, although Marquez and Migueli were both a physical presence, and Gullit running from a much deeper position than usual, especially as he’s being asked to defend as part of a deeper unit, means he’s much farther away from goal to hurt us.

On the flip side, no one stops Messi from doing his thing, and he’s far more clinical than anyone on the other side of the pitch, not to mention will see much more of the ball to do something with it.
 
Skizzo said:
I agree on the Busquets analysis, but Puyol and Pique more physical than Migueli and Marquez?
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Pique is a giant. 1.94 cm, big frame. Can't say Puyol was definitely more physical than Marquez and Migueli, that's just an impression from me.

All I would say is if you had Busquets and Pique in your team, you would be much better equipped at dealing with physical threats like Gullit and Ruud without giving up any of the tiki taka ball playing.
 
Don Alfredo said:
Pique is a giant. 1.94 cm, big frame. Can't say Puyol was definitely more physical than Marquez and Migueli, that's just an impression from me.

All I would say is if you had Busquets and Pique in your team, you would be much better equipped at dealing with physical threats like Gullit and Ruud without giving up any of the tiki taka ball playing.
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Migueli and Marquez are both 6 feet tall, and both more physical than Pique. With Marquez in there, we still lose none of the ability on the ball that the baxkline possessed.

On the flip side, there’s still the fact that McGrath and Campbell would both struggle with Messi and his ability to stop on a dime and change directions. Migueli and Marquez match up better to Ruud and Gullit than Messi against Mcgrath and Campbell. Especially as we’ll see lots more of the ball, meaning more chances to hurt them. I don’t think we’d keep a clean sheet, but confident we’d outscore them.
 
It shouldn’t need highlighting as everyone who watches football knows their ability, but at the risk of it being swept under the rug with other discussions and hyperbole, it doesn’t hurt to remind of just how damn good these three were at their peak.



Numerous times there you see a quick interchange, movement off the ball, and a quick pass in behind to free up Messi. You see their ability to move seamlessly through the ranks, beating 3,4,5 defenders with one flick, feint or pass.

Their understanding at their peak was almost telepathic, winning 14 out of a possible 19 trophies, and Messi scorching all sorts of goal records along the way (with Ronnie trading blows of course)

I don’t see here in this matchup how they’d be organized enough to make it work over the long haul to win. Skoglund and Ruud won’t be pressing excessively from the front, Overath and Stielike won’t be successful often enough at shutting down Xavi and Iniesta, and Messi is the best player on the pitch free to run the game as he sees fit. Alaba wouldn’t know where to squeeze, because as soon as he pressed the midfield, Simonsen/Alves burn down the outside. He stays out wide and Messi has a free run towards Campbell/Mcgrath and his low center plus dribbling would see him through enough times to make the difference.
 
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