Aye, ideally I'd like to see Sammer in a back five as well but with a defensive full back at his side and a dedicated DM in front of him I think he has reasonable scope to play his usual, expansive game. On a similar topic what role is Beckenbauer playing here? DM, B2B midfielder or libero?
P&G Draft - R1: Isotope vs 2mufc0
- Thread starter Physiocrat
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Aye, ideally I'd like to see Sammer in a back five as well but with a defensive full back at his side and a dedicated DM in front of him I think he has reasonable scope to play his usual, expansive game. On a similar topic what role is Beckenbauer playing here? DM, B2B midfielder or libero?
Of course. Here he doesn't have the freedom of back 5, but the "freedom" of back 4. Less, but still useful.
Firstly, a great idea pairing Giggs/Charlton/Best. I havent seen it in drafts here.
Coming to the game, I think the Germans are winning the midfield battle quite easily.
Charlton and Kaiser cancelling each other out as in 1966 is a bit misleading for me considering the company both of them are in.
As far as I can see, Beckenbauer has more freedom with two impeccable runners and hard workers in Szymaniak and Breitner alongside. He doesnt need to man mark Charlton all the time, but Charlton will have to by the looks of it considering all three of the midfielders on the German side will have a go at the attacking end as well.
Kaiser in this setup is like having Redondo+Pirlo+Iniesta in the same player running the game on an axis while being supported by a crew that would raise his game and give him all the freedom he needed.
Pluskal and Baraja for me don't match up to the rest of the midfield relative quality and versatility wise leaving the midfield quite static.
Coming to the attacks, isotope clearly has the better attack, but case by case, Charlton will find it tough to run the midfield on his own.
Best while being the best attacker by miles on the pitch does run into a great wide area covering CB Forster and a hardworking physical fullback in Breigel.
If the Germans can nullify those two, which is a daunting task for any team, I think the game is theirs.
Considering the personnel on both sides, that is what won the Germans my vote.
Great job dropping Florian Albert though. While RVP doesn't come high in my list in such a setup as well, Albert would have been a disaster.
Coming to the game, I think the Germans are winning the midfield battle quite easily.
Charlton and Kaiser cancelling each other out as in 1966 is a bit misleading for me considering the company both of them are in.
As far as I can see, Beckenbauer has more freedom with two impeccable runners and hard workers in Szymaniak and Breitner alongside. He doesnt need to man mark Charlton all the time, but Charlton will have to by the looks of it considering all three of the midfielders on the German side will have a go at the attacking end as well.
Kaiser in this setup is like having Redondo+Pirlo+Iniesta in the same player running the game on an axis while being supported by a crew that would raise his game and give him all the freedom he needed.
Pluskal and Baraja for me don't match up to the rest of the midfield relative quality and versatility wise leaving the midfield quite static.
Coming to the attacks, isotope clearly has the better attack, but case by case, Charlton will find it tough to run the midfield on his own.
Best while being the best attacker by miles on the pitch does run into a great wide area covering CB Forster and a hardworking physical fullback in Breigel.
If the Germans can nullify those two, which is a daunting task for any team, I think the game is theirs.
Considering the personnel on both sides, that is what won the Germans my vote.
Great job dropping Florian Albert though. While RVP doesn't come high in my list in such a setup as well, Albert would have been a disaster.
Why so? he's the only one who can control their game, but mine has several others.
I'd be quite happy for Sammer to surge forward with Gentile tucking in it leaves more space for Shafer to exploit and room for Klinsmann to get ready to poach. I'm not sure if Pluskal was the type of midfielder who would slot back into defence either? Maybe you know more about him.
I don't really want to pigeon hole Kaiser into a role i wanted him to be at the centre of everything we do allowing him ultimate control of the game and also giving him freedom to play, but if i had to chose 1 of the 3 you picked i would say libero.
Ruben Baraja, in the words of our own fans.
Likened him to Roy Keane
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/ruben-baraja.27510/
Classing him on the same level as Seedorf, Vidal, Essien.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-centre-midfield-ranking.440032/page-2#post-22806028
Likened him to Roy Keane
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/ruben-baraja.27510/
Classing him on the same level as Seedorf, Vidal, Essien.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-centre-midfield-ranking.440032/page-2#post-22806028
Nobody is denying he's a good player, but he's never in the class of Keane or even Breitner.
I vaguely recall reading that Pluskal played as a CB on ocasion but I have no idea how good he was there or even if it's true. Fair point on Sammer bursting forward creating space for you when you regain possession, although it's a calculated gamble in the modern game really, as we see with full backs playing such an attacking role now.
Good call on Kaiser playing libero - I was hoping you'd say that. Personally I'd prefer him depicted in the formation graphic between Forster and Buchwald with a forward arrow, but that's more of an aesthetic issue really, and I know others like @Edgar Allan Pillow prefer to place the libero ahead of the CBs like you have.
It's the libero vs sweeper discussion, we've had before. If Passarella, I'd put him ahead. If Picchi, I'd put him behind.
Fair enough, i guess its each to their own in that respect.
Also i didn't mention that he also has Best on that side, so if we do manage to nick the ball back while Sammer bursts forward it's unlikely Best will be busting a gut to get back. That's why he is more suited to a back 5.
With top wingers like Best, it's better to surround them with other players to open spaces and pull defenders out. I'd say Best is more effective with an AM like Charlton than another midfield playmaker.
I haven't sold it as much yet but Breitner and Rummenigge had a great understanding and combined for club and country consistently well, resulting in many goals scored. Credit to @Joga Bonito for these Gifs:
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It is a shame those two never met each other in their primes. In 1966, Beckenbauer was just 20 years old and in 1970, Charlton was already 32. Charlton has been described as being too old and slow to follow Beckenbauer all game, der Kaiser scored the first German goal and Charlton was subbed off later. So while that "cancelling each other out" holds up for the game in 66, I don't think it does for the one in 1970.
Since they cancelled each other out when one was in his prime and one was just 20 years old, I believe it is a bit of a myth to suggest they would cancel each other out when both were at the same age, rather I would think Beckenbauer would have the upper hand. Since this is pure fantasy and has no historical evidence whatsoever, I am perfectly fine with people thinking they would cancel each other out based on the game in 66. Just my personal opinion that that wouldn't happen with Beckenbauer in his prime, most certainly also influenced by me being a big fan of Beckenbauer like others are big fans of Best or Giggs.
Is that a joke?
For the record, I have repeatedly said before that Sammer should be perfectly fine in a back 4, no questions asked.
Thanks for clearing that up
I know Muller is too expensive. I think there are a few German strikers who were excellent goalscorers and much better in the air than Klinsmann. Klaus Fischer and Miro Klose are the two names I would suggest. I will post more on Klaus Fischer at a different point and time, he deserves to have an expanded profile
If you had gone for one of those, you would have had a very big advantage, since you would have had one of the best crossers in the game and a great header of the ball vs two CBs who were 1.77 and 1.80. Just hypothetical though
Edit: Didn't want to take over the discussion, will quietly follow the game from now on
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Good work by harms on this all touch video.
Ah yeah some good choices, but unfortunately i doubt Klose would get much love in these drafts, however i agree a very effective player. But, Klinsmann wasn't bad in the air either, he scored many headers.I know Muller is too expensive. I think there are a few German strikers who were excellent goalscorers and much better in the air than Klinsmann. Klaus Fischer and Miro Klose are the two names I would suggest. I will post more on Klaus Fischer at a different point and time, he deserves to have an expanded profile
If you had gone for one of those, you would have had a very big advantage, since you would have had one of the best crossers in the game and a great header of the ball vs two CBs who were 1.77 and 1.80. Just hypothetical though
@2mufc0 Please spoiler the gifs
I mean he literally played in a back four all of his career (bar a few years as a midfielder)? Not sure how it's similar to Sammer situation.
I'm not against Sammer in 4 by the way, but I think that it's an interesting point of discussion
Done.
Second one was brilliant, fantastic cross .
Klaus Fischer and Miro Klose are the two names I would suggest. I will post more on Klaus Fischer at a different point and time, he deserves to have an expanded profile
Fischer has barely appeared in these drafts, which is strange for a goalscorer of his pedigree.
I don't think it's that weird, his profile is not big enough to catch the attention of non-German drafters. He also plays in a position where there are many great (and more flashy) alternatives available, unlike fullback / libero / DM, where everyone loves their Germans.
He never won a big title because he played for Schalke. He also missed out on a big career with Germany for several reasons, like heavy competition for places, him being banned by the DFB and him breaking his leg right before the Euros in 1980.
Still I hope to change that when I finally manage to take part in one of these drafts
Let me just say for now: He was not only a great goalscorer, but also a scorer of great goals
At first glance of the attack of the opposition I can understand why someone would vote for them, but looking at the tactical battle and the points raised in this thread I do believe my team would win this game. My opponent hasn't come back with anything of substance to refute the points made and not sure how much more I can talk to myself and post videos 
.
Appreciate the feedback given already from the regular drafters who will look at the matchup in more detail.
.Appreciate the feedback given already from the regular drafters who will look at the matchup in more detail.
At first glance of the attack of the opposition I can understand why someone would vote for them, but looking at the tactical battle and the points raised in this thread I do believe my team would win this game. My opponent hasn't come back with anything of substance to refute the points made and not sure how much more I can talk to myself and post videos
Appreciate the feedback given already from the regular drafters who will look at the matchup in more detail.
Not much to say, really. It really depends on how you want to see your game out. Yours dominate the midfield battle, mine dominate the attack. Defensive wise, yours is more conservative, mine is more adventurous.
The way I see it the Germans will have most of the ball, their midfield is a cut above Iso's. Iso does have a good defence but I don't think they will be able to hold out all game especially against Kalle with the creativity in the midfield.
Iso will be a threat on the counter but they don't have the ideal midfield to move the ball quickly up front. A 433 with Charlton a bit deeper may have been better to allow smoother transitions. Plus the Germans have a very solid defence too.
Given they will have proportionally more attacks that will count I'm going for a narrow German win.
Iso will be a threat on the counter but they don't have the ideal midfield to move the ball quickly up front. A 433 with Charlton a bit deeper may have been better to allow smoother transitions. Plus the Germans have a very solid defence too.
Given they will have proportionally more attacks that will count I'm going for a narrow German win.
I think the positioning should be much more to do with the tactics in place rather than just the type of player.
He should be placed between the 2 CB's if he is going to be play making from the deep but minding the box more proactively and providing a strong defensive base. Especially needed against teams with 2 strikers.
He should be placed in midfield if he is constantly going to be involved in the midfield battle. In a game like this against Charlton, its obvious where the red zones of his are going to be. 2 good stoppers to mind a opposition setup like this with only RVP as the lone striker is good enough. Putting Kaiser in there is just a waste of resource at times IMO.
The midfield placement gives him way more freedom tactically. And when you come up against an all time great number 10, I would almost always place Kaiser there.
Personally for me, a team built around Beckenbauer should never have him between 2 CB's in a 5 man defense. Give him the absolute freedom and the license to directly deal with the best opposition player in the middle (Pele/Maradona/Cruyff/Charlton) and see him run the game from top to bottom. (Which is what seems to be done here)
You could argue Gemany didn't do that consistently, but Germany never played a 5 man defense with Kaiser consistently. In a 4 man defense, no matter how great he was, he would leave gaps at times if you were to give him absolute freedom.
Just tagging a few people who shown interest in the match but haven't voted @Don Alfredo @Pat_Mustard @Enigma_87 if you have any further queries on my team or the match? I think tactically I'm set up perfectly against his strengths in attack.
Like a salmon. Think it was on the title credits for BBC's opening montage for Italia '90.
Bump
Going back and forth with it mate really. Love both set ups. To me you have done a great job pulling a team like that considering it's all German and with all the restrictions.
On the other hand - Charlton, Best and Giggs is just fantastic. Iso's defensive line is pretty well structured as well and Pluskal can drop in to protect Sammer's forays. IMO Iso has more quality through the ranks in terms of individual players, but your set up and Breitnigge makes it really tough to vote against it.
No worries mate, given the names on display I can understand that.
Thanks for the input.
Sorry mate, I fannied out and called it a draw. Loved your midfield and felt you'd exert substantial control over the game, but for all that Breitner/Rummenigge is a top notch proven partnership down your right wing and your best route to goal I liked the similarly proven Irwin/Giggs partnership to mitigate it to an extent. Would still have voted for you except for thinking that Best was as likely a match-winner as anyone - it's probably unfair on Briegel but I kept thinking of him struggling against Conti at WC 82 and saw Best tying him in knots at times.
I couldn't decide
The most probable result would be Beckenbauer winning the game because he is too much for Charlton to handle, but as I said before that theory is a bit subjective by my side and I didn't want to be the Germany fan who votes for the German team because of a very subjective impression of his heroesTough luck for going out because of 1 vote, you drafted a great team.
Very little in it. I fancied Rummenigge to be too direct for Irwin/Ayala to handle, but that was about it. Both drafted really well.
What's the point in me drafting a German team if I can't win the vote of a GermanI couldn't decide
Tough luck for going out because of 1 vote, you drafted a great team.
Congrats mate, will be rooting for you now just need to get a better midfielder in and you're good to go.
Hey. Thanks a lot. Just sell me Breitner and Beckenbauer for cheap later.
Congrats mate, will be rooting for you now just need to get a better midfielder in and you're good to go.
Ok, I am late once again.
So, the game was between Manchester United and Germany.
Hum, I think I would have voted for @2mufc0 : so many versatile players who are able to do everything.
I expect Isotope to upgrade his central midfield
So, the game was between Manchester United and Germany.
Hum, I think I would have voted for @2mufc0 : so many versatile players who are able to do everything.
I expect Isotope to upgrade his central midfield