As it's a draw, harms wins since he has the lowest average pick time.
P&G Draft - Final: Theon/Gio vs harms
- Thread starter Physiocrat
- Start date
Felt like that was overplayed from a both 1. quality perspective (Marcelo is the best left back in the world, has been for four years, Chiellini is a perfect fit as an LCB) 2. Tactical fit (five man defence, with Brietner as the LCM offer plenty of protection).
Thought there were clearly bigger threats on the park, with Maradona imo not being adequately handled and that Romario / Bebeto partnership being kryptonite for a slow Vidic / Moore backline.
Shocked by that result anyway but hey-hoh. Congrats @harms
Cheers @Gio awesome AM as always. Thanks for running the draft @Physiocrat
Cheers @Gio awesome AM as always. Thanks for running the draft @Physiocrat
Not a draw, Both Gio / Theon voted for themselves, Harms won by 1 vote.
I think thats the GOAT debate settled then, Pele > Maradona
I think Marcelo is the revelation of the draft, but Marcelo being the best left back in the world holds same weight for me as Sergio Ramos being the best CB in the world. Agree with rest of your points hence voted for you.
Not a draw, Both Gio / Theon voted for themselves, Harms won by 1 vote.
I think thats the GOAT debate settled then, Pele > Maradona
Ah, I when I looked eariler only Theon had voted.
Good to focus on that Juve defence, but it just reinforces my view that they and Marcelo are really underwhelming in an all time draft.
@Gio top 3 drafters. @Physiocrat
Not buying it at all to be honest. The games over so all bias aside, Marcelo is clearly a better fullback than Evra ever was, or Phil Neal.
As for that Juve back line, I guess we’ll see what happens but I think they’ll be appreciated more widely in a few years or so. We have a real tendency to underrate modern players in these drafts, but someone like Chiellini has been playing at the highest level for over a decade. I don’t see any disparity between him and Vidic.
And more importantly that juve back line has a proven cohesiveness which elevates their performance imo, each player is clearly perfect for the role.
He is a player who likes to have the ball. His tactical and positional discipline is sadly way below anything you'd expect from a balanced fullback. Exploiting gaps he leaves behind is not really a difficult thing to do esp with a world class winger. In a back 4, I'd gladly take Neal or Evra every time over Marcelo.
Nearly half of goals Real Madrid have conceded last season have come down Marcelo's left flank attests to this.
They have under-performed outside of Italy. Barca, Spurs, Real, Bayern have all put multiple goals per match past them in previous CL outings. I still think Juve (and their defence) are susceptible to a fast paced game.
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Think that's overly nostalgic. Marcelo is massively in credit as a full-back at Real.
Nah, they've got some excellent credentials internationally - brilliant at Euro 2012 for example. Plus they've reached 2 CL finals in 3 years - one season conceding just 3 in 12 games - despite lacking the sort of attacking talent of their competitors.
Real has always been attack heavy and as long as a player has the attacking input weakness in other areas have been largely played under the rug. It's just the way RM operates.
Club vs Country makes different goal posts. Their only clean sheets were against England and Rep of Ireland. And Spain put 4 past them.
Again, to make my point...I consider them to be a very good defensive unit. Probably even the best in recent memory, but not in an all-time context.
Those 50/50 polls look very suspicious.
@harms has Chelsea 2012ed his way in this tournament. Winning 2 games based on picking times. 
Cheers, @Gio @Theon hey-hoh
Great team you've built here, although if you'd upgraded Chiellini/Barzagli in the last round you would've probably won it (but I respect the decision to stick with them — I did the same with Vidić and Evra to a lesser extent, whom I adore, despite the constant criticism)
Great team you've built here, although if you'd upgraded Chiellini/Barzagli in the last round you would've probably won it (but I respect the decision to stick with them — I did the same with Vidić and Evra to a lesser extent, whom I adore, despite the constant criticism)
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Not really, the score is 12:13, Gio and Theon both voted for themselves@harms has Chelsea 2012ed his way in this tournament. Winning 2 games based on picking times.
Really wanted to post this since it's my 3rd
Nah, I think this was the better team for us and should have won the match. With Breitner added I fully expected Maradona / Breitner / Schwein vs Suárez / Desailly to prove the clear difference but it was never really mentioned.
And Romario vs Moore / Vidic again tactically made a lot of sense. Posted enough on Barzagli and Chiellini but again thought they didn’t need to be upgraded, given Vidic, Evra, Neal were playing. Obviously it was considered though.
A wise man once said to me when it goes to this stages of the draft it's almost impossible to separate teams. That front four along with Suarez ability to make a quick transition just edged a bit for me.
As for Marcelo though it's got to the absurd point. It's better almost to put someone like Filipe Luis on that side as people just talk about Marcelo defensive weaknesses (which are exaggerated) ignoring how much damage he makes going forward where he should be already considered as one of the best in his position. Here he also had brilliant support and platform behind, so it shouldn't be any problem, but people still don't rate that enough.
Anyway, two great teams, fine margins and all that.
As for Marcelo though it's got to the absurd point. It's better almost to put someone like Filipe Luis on that side as people just talk about Marcelo defensive weaknesses (which are exaggerated) ignoring how much damage he makes going forward where he should be already considered as one of the best in his position. Here he also had brilliant support and platform behind, so it shouldn't be any problem, but people still don't rate that enough.
Anyway, two great teams, fine margins and all that.
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On its way.
He was a steal for 15 millions, but his defensive weakness was a big part of it. In my opinion, he is the weakest defender of all top-tier fullbacks, ahead of Alves and Roberto Carlos for me — and while Chiellini is a great tactical fit, together (especially against Figo + Law/Pele) they are a liability at this stage.
Plus, as I said, he thrived with Ronaldo and constantly created opportunities for him with his crossing and Romario (1,67 cm.), Bebeto (1,78 cm.) and Maradona (1,64 cm.) aren’t a considerable aerial threat against Vidić and Moore — it limits Marcelo’s and Cafu’s game and makes them more predictable and easier to defend against.
I think it was more Marcelo plus Chiellini that was a problem. Stick Maldini there or say Schellinger it becomes much less of an issue from a voting perspective
Agree with this. I've been quite critical of him in the past and preferred Luis for a while. But there is no full-back around who is so much in credit as he is. Technically he blows most of the great wing-backs out of the water. It is true - in terms of the voting it's a lot safer just to plonk a purer defender first and foremost there, even though the overall control of the game and shape of the side would be compromised.
After Maldini there is a drop of properly proven LCBs for that role. Certainly barely any that are as natural fits as Chiellini in that role. Personally not a massive fan of Schnellinger from what I've seen, but agree that he carries more gravitas for the voters.
Tbf, he was 15 because he somehow slipped off the list. Even Physio said it after he was picked immediately in the first round.
As for him creating opportunities with his crossing, I wouldn't say it's such an issue here or that it's taking much from him from attacking point of view. Many of his assists come after link-up play and quick interchange with other attackers which should exactly be the case with Romario, Bebeto and Maradona.
He isn't greatest in a defensive sense, but if you do count that as some sort of an issue than it would be fair to give him credit in the area where he excels and has a clear advantage over most other fullbacks. And for all this talking about defensive liability, I'm still waiting to see anyone destroying him even close to what Bale did to Maicon for example. All that, playing in a back 4, while here he has much more defensive insurance.
I really think he doesn't get nearly enough credit in the drafts and I'm pretty sure as time goes on that will change.
Same with Alves and maicon, fullbacks of that ilk are rarely appreciated.
Probably because you’d never see a Bale score a hattrick against Cafu or Alberto.
Then Davids has no business in drafts, you'd never see Neeskens or Tigana playing for Barnet.
You are welcome to not pick him in the future if you think those two are the same things
You are welcome to not pick him in the future if you think those two are the same things
They are, you are judging a player on post peak form. How far from their peak that form was is irrelevant IMO
You haven’t watched the 7:1 game then? Bale vs Maicon was extraordinary though, but Marcelo have been leaking goals for years (he compensated by his outstanding attacking game but if we’re talking about defense)
Fair enough if you think Maicon was way off from his short peak. Was never great defensively for me and always suspect to be beaten. I would rate Alves higher in general who has done well against CR on average.
Tbf thats the proper question, is his peak long enough and not the Bale discussion because it was obvious at the time that he wasnt anywhere close to his beast mode.
I rate Alves higher as well(though id prefer Maicon in a counter-attacking side), defensive wise he was okay but he was such a beast going forwards that you take that risk without blinking.
I did, was responsible for the second goal and had a blame in fifth or sixth when the game was over. But, that's mostly the point as I said. Even if there are issues with his defensive game, give him credit where he is brilliant. It goes mostly one way with him imo.
How do you rate Marcelo compared to Wim Suurbier on other flank?
Missed the final by a bit(read as completely). Congratulations @harms you crafted a great team with awesome front 6.
Commiserations @Gio @Theon top effort as always. Think with Scirea you fixed a lot of the issues that Juve defense had and Schweinsteiger/Breitner midfield is just phenomenal
Marcelo’s criticism was IMO way over the top. Sure in 4 man defense he’ll be a liability in all time sense but in a 3-5-2 where he can unleash his attacking potential there are handful better than him in that formation. Especially with someone like Breitner or Schweini minding that flank.
Commiserations @Gio @Theon top effort as always. Think with Scirea you fixed a lot of the issues that Juve defense had and Schweinsteiger/Breitner midfield is just phenomenal
Marcelo’s criticism was IMO way over the top. Sure in 4 man defense he’ll be a liability in all time sense but in a 3-5-2 where he can unleash his attacking potential there are handful better than him in that formation. Especially with someone like Breitner or Schweini minding that flank.
Don’t really rate Suurbier. Marcelo is better than him even defensively wing the more athletic out of the two and he’s streets ahead in terms of attacking prowess.
I would rate alves as the best by far, then maicon and then marcelo from a defensive pov.
Overall,its alves then marcelo and then maicon.
Overall,its alves then marcelo and then maicon.
This is something that surprised me as Suurbier cost me my match. Few games that i’ve seen of him he’s not looked out of place defensively. Attacking wise sure Marcelo is miles ahead of everyone
Suurbier was average defender and compensated with high energy, stamina and attacking output. His defensive ability was all over the place tho. If it wasn't for the total football and generally great Holland side of the 70's he won't get near all time drafts.
He was a system player who thrived in successful team, but put against a quality winger and he's toast.