Our Progress

[Bilbo]

It's absolutely not. It's a prediction, based on factors that have been discussed in this thread. "Agenda" is such a lazy buzzword on here.

Everyone who has an opinion different to mine has an agenda. Sadly that’s genuinely the stating point for so many

I agree it's an overused word, and on here is probably the only time I ever use it.

A prediction or an opinion is one thing. Saying its 'blatantly obvious' that a manager who has lifted this team to 2nd alongside multiple deep cup runs will never win anything is veering dangerously towards agenda IMO

 

[Bilbo]

It’s not exactly the same but it originates from the same place. United fans wanting a better player/manager.

If a player makes the same mistakes and doesn’t develop his game enough to help the team move forward, there’s an argument to be made that potentially they should be replaced.

If a manager repeats mistakes over ten years into his managerial career those same arguments can be legitimately made.
For example -

2020 Europa league Semi final

- Team losing control in the game, looking tired and out of ideas. No subs or tactical changes until 87th minute...Lose game.

2021 Europa League final

- team losing control in the game, looking tired and out of ideas. No subs or tactical changes until 100th minute.....Lose game.

FA Cup semi final 2020

- Use first team in previous rounds against weaker opposition. Make loads of changes against strong opponent, fall two goals down then bring on first team players anyway. Lose game.

FA Cup Quarter Final 2021

- Use first team in previous rounds against weaker opposition. Make loads of changes against strong opponent, fall two goals down then bring on first team players anyway.

I think you're cherry picking a little bit here. I could easily write a similar post detailing Peps repeated failings in the Champions League, and he's a genius.

I'm not discounting what you're saying here though, and as I've said I do think Ole makes mistakes. The big losses are always going to hurt and will be picked apart by many but its one side of a story isn't it? No mention of the great wins, the best performances, the numerous times we've come out a different side after half time and won matches we were struggling in.

Ole needs to improve certain aspects of his management. I think he needs to win a trophy next season. If he doesn't then it might well be time to say 'thanks so much and let's see what someone else can do with this squad'. Let's see what happens

 

[acnumber9]

Apologies for the bumping of old thread but this debate came to mind when I saw somebody on Twitter talking about how Solskjaer dragged us off the floor and brought us back to back Champions League qualification. When Solskjaer took over we were sitting sixth in the league and had just been beaten 3-1 by Liverpool with Pogba sitting on the bench. We finished second in Mourinho’s second full season and had qualified for back to back Champions League’s. Talk of dressing room unhappiness was rife.

Fast forward to now, we are sitting sixth in the table having finished second in Solskjaer’s second full season. We have just been beaten 5-0 at home by Liverpool with Pogba sitting on the bench and talk of dressing room unhappiness is rife. In both seasons the writing had been on the wall since about halfway through the season we finished second. The parallels are remarkable.

Just remembered another parallel. Both were given a new contract before the shit hit the fan.

 

[OleBoiii]

The parallels are remarkable.

There are 3 very distinct differences, though:

1. We're in October, not mid December. Even if you don't think that he can turn this around(I also have my doubts), there's still a significant difference between being 3 points behind top 4 with 29 games to go and being 11 points behind top 4 with 21 games to go.

2. The team is in a much better state now. Whoever takes over will have a much easier job than Ole had.

3. Mourinho was pretty damn miserable. He looked like he gave up even before the season started.

 

[acnumber9]

There are 3 very distinct differences, though:

1. We're in October, not mid December. Even if you don't think that he can turn this around(I also have my doubts), there's still a significant difference between being 3 points behind top 4 with 29 games to go and being 11 points behind top 4 with 21 games to go.

2. The team is in a much better state now. Whoever takes over will have a much easier job than Ole had.

3. Mourinho was pretty damn miserable. He looked like he gave up even before the season started.

On point 1 we had 14 points after 9 games. This season we have 14 points after 9 games.

On point 2 we do have a better team now. Which makes the results and performances even worse.

On point 3, that is true but he came off the back of a transfer window where we signed Fred and Dalot. Solskjaer just got Varane, Sancho and Ronaldo. Puts it in perspective.

 

[Flytan]

There are 3 very distinct differences, though:

1. We're in October, not mid December. Even if you don't think that he can turn this around(I also have my doubts), there's still a significant difference between being 3 points behind top 4 with 29 games to go and being 11 points behind top 4 with 21 games to go.

2. The team is in a much better state now. Whoever takes over will have a much easier job than Ole had.

3. Mourinho was pretty damn miserable. He looked like he gave up even before the season started.

1) This isn't about just the start of the season. It's about his whole tenure since he was made permanent manager. This is just the culmination of not having a real plan for years.

2) Do they? I think he had one of the easiest jobs in the world. Mourinho turned the whole squad against him. All he had to do was come in and smile and it was job done. The issue was he had expectations because he was then promoted to manager. The squad just got battered 5-0 by Liverpool and have been mismanaged for years

3) He did. The board should have sacked him the moment they denied his request for Maguire. They didn't. They wanted to change how they were doing transfers, which is fair and modern, the issue is you can't take that power from a man like Mourinho without him losing his mind and becoming toxic. They should have waited until the next manager or fired him when they decided to change how the club was structured.

 

[telstar96]

The club in theory is in a better state than it was when Mourinho left, especially with the number of players that were disgruntled at the time.

Fair play to Ole for resurrecting the careers of some of those players, Luke Shaw being the most obvious example.

Having said that, if these poor results keep happening, all that good work will begin to unravel, similarly to how José’s team descended into crisis towards the end of his reign. There are already murmurs of players being either unhappy or unsatisfied with Ole’s performances. The longer Ole stays, it will come to a point whereby the state of the team won’t be in a position any better than when José left, potentially even worse given that the squad isn’t getting any younger.

 

[OleBoiii]

On point 1 we had 14 points after 9 games. This season we have 14 points after 9 games.

But that doesn't mean that we are guaranteed to copy the remaining fixtures as well.

There's a reason for why Mourinho wasn't sacked after 9 games. It's not a whole lot of data and there's too much left of the season to definitely conclude that he can't turn it around. At some point the data look bleak enough to warrant a sacking, which is what it ended up doing for Mourinho. I'm sure that Ole will get the same treatment if we're in a similar position in mid December(if he survives that long).

On point 3, that is true but he came off the back of a transfer window where we signed Fred and Dalot.

Ole's 2020 summer wasn't much better than this and his start to the season was even rougher. He still kept his chin up. Mourinho is just a very miserable man when things aren't going exactly the way he wants it.

 

[frostbite]

There are 3 very distinct differences, though:

1. We're in October, not mid December. Even if you don't think that he can turn this around(I also have my doubts), there's still a significant difference between being 3 points behind top 4 with 29 games to go and being 11 points behind top 4 with 21 games to go.

2. The team is in a much better state now. Whoever takes over will have a much easier job than Ole had.

3. Mourinho was pretty damn miserable. He looked like he gave up even before the season started.

After reading you first line, the following 3 very distinct differences came to my mind:

1. Mourinho had won a european cup with us.
2. Mourinho had won a domestic cup with us.
3. Mourinho had not relegated any teams.

Objectively, I think the situation is worse now!

 

[acnumber9]

But that doesn't mean that we are guaranteed to copy the remaining fixtures as well.

There's a reason for why Mourinho wasn't sacked after 9 games. It's not a whole lot of data and there's too much left of the season to definitely conclude that he can't turn it around. At some point the data look bleak enough to warrant a sacking, which is what it ended up doing for Mourinho. I'm sure that Ole will get the same treatment if we're in a similar position in mid December(if he survives that long).




Ole's 2020 summer wasn't much better than this and his start to the season was even rougher. He still kept his chin up. Mourinho is just a very miserable man when things aren't going exactly the way he wants it.

There’s also no guarantee we won’t do worse. Mourinho hadn’t just lost 5-0 at home to Liverpool. He also hadn’t spent as much money as Solskjaer and wasn’t in the job as long.

Ole is a more cheerful personality no doubt. I’m just drawing attention to some crazy parallels.

 

[Adam-Utd]

There’s also no guarantee we won’t do worse. Mourinho hadn’t just lost 5-0 at home to Liverpool. He also hadn’t spent as much money as Solskjaer and wasn’t in the job as long.

Ole is a more cheerful personality no doubt. I’m just drawing attention to some crazy parallels.

Mourinho - horrible man management, boring football but managed some good results

Ole - decent man management, entertaining football, lacking tactically and ultimately nothing to show for it

Both not good enough.

 

[Idxomer]

Mourinho - horrible man management, boring football but managed some good results

Ole - decent man management, entertaining football, lacking tactically and ultimately nothing to show for it

Both not good enough.

No.

 

[OleBoiii]

1. Mourinho had won a european cup with us.
2. Mourinho had won a domestic cup with us.
3. Mourinho had not relegated any teams.

Concerning your first 2 points: Mourinho had to win the EL or otherwise he would have gotten the sack seeing as he finished 6th in the league despite spending loads of money and getting a full season. That's a pretty strong motivator, wouldn't you say? As for the domestic cups, they have always been a very poor metric of a team's quality. At least for the top teams, as they don't field their strongest XI before they reach a semi/final.

I'd take finishing 2nd in the league and no trophy over 6th place and the EL trophy any day of the week.

As for the third point: Mourinho never managed a team in Cardiff's position either, so it's hardly relevant. Ole is not getting us relegated, for feck's sake.

 

[redrobed]

I’m of the opinion that Ole needs to go but it’s not nearly as extreme as many are making out. The squad is a lot better than when he joined. There was progression - he got us to 3rd - then 2nd - the problem is this season he absolutely had to be part of a title race. To at least feel like we’re still in it come April. The reality is now of we keep Ole we’ll come somewhere between 4th and 6th. Even if we get Conte - we come 4th. It’s this season the wheels have fallen off.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Concerning your first 2 points: Mourinho had to win the EL or otherwise he would have gotten the sack seeing as he finished 6th in the league despite spending loads of money and getting a full season. That's a pretty strong motivator, wouldn't you say?

So he only won it cause he had to

 

[OleBoiii]

So he only won it cause he had to

That's not what I said? But of course both him and the team are going to be more motivated to win a minor trophy if it's the only way of getting CL football the next season.

 

[RuudTom83]

Losing the shootout 10-11 was critical in Ole tenure, that trophy would have put a lot of the daft arguments to bed.

 

[laughtersassassin]

It's very overstated.

Anyway I'm not bothered at this stage. Just win the final so we can try push on.

Lose the final and it's not a good season even if people want to pretend that it is.

Im not happy to be right but right I was.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Was always something of “false progress” anyhow.

Took over a team that had months earlier finished a season on 81 points.
Ole went on to finish that half season on 66 points, followed by 66 points, followed by 74 points, with no trophy to show either.
And that after spending an absolute fortune, all the time looking disorganised as feck and as likely to go on a losing streak as a winning one. He’s on course now for 59 points, but I think this squad would eventually find another good run of form if he stayed and he’d get us his yearly 70-ish points.
That’s what Ole is, he’ll never turn a side into more than the sum of it’s parts. Give him more and more WC players and his squad will grab a few more points, but that’s the ceiling.

 

[Bobcat]

The squad has come leaps and bounds the last couple of years and right now thats the only progress worth mentioning really

Inb4 someone says signing Bruno, Varane and Sancho are "no brainers". People thought Miki, Sanchez and Di Maria also were "no brainer" signings at the time, and they all turned out to be pretty fecking bad in the end.

Silver lining here is that a competent coach could really do some damage with these players

 

[GlasgowCeltic]

It was honest of Ole to admit the 2nd place happened due to VVD injury

 

[Ixion]

It was honest of Ole to admit the 2nd place happened due to VVD injury

At the end of last season it was obvious we were not the 2nd best side in the country after Liverpool stuffed us at OT and Chelsea won the CL.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

Our first team is unbalanced but has a lot of talent in it, a new manager could win a lot of games with the personnel we have, if they're brave enough to make a few tough calls and set up a functional shape. There's a lot of untapped potential there.

 

[Flytan]

Losing the shootout 10-11 was critical in Ole tenure, that trophy would have put a lot of the daft arguments to bed.

Yeah how dare we expect trophies after the club invests hundreds of millions

 

[Tom Cato]

On point 1 we had 14 points after 9 games. This season we have 14 points after 9 games.

On point 2 we do have a better team now. Which makes the results and performances even worse.

On point 3, that is true but he came off the back of a transfer window where we signed Fred and Dalot. Solskjaer just got Varane, Sancho and Ronaldo. Puts it in perspective.

Point 2. We have better players.

Do we have a better team?

 

[Stactix]

Point 2. We have better players.

Do we have a better team?

Definetly not.

 

[Kurton]

By achieve you mean having a happy squad? Because besides that he hasn't achieve a thing.

Even that's not true, there's only happy players that are his favorites.

 

[UnitedSofa]

I’m of the opinion that Ole needs to go but it’s not nearly as extreme as many are making out. The squad is a lot better than when he joined. There was progression - he got us to 3rd - then 2nd - the problem is this season he absolutely had to be part of a title race. To at least feel like we’re still in it come April. The reality is now of we keep Ole we’ll come somewhere between 4th and 6th. Even if we get Conte - we come 4th. It’s this season the wheels have fallen off.

No way, there’s still a long season ahead and we can still challenge, what’s the point of writing it off now if we get Conte? If you’re gonna write off the season might aswell stick with Ole as he’ll probably manage top 4 by the skin of his teeth

 

[Kurton]

I think you're cherry picking a little bit here. I could easily write a similar post detailing Peps repeated failings in the Champions League, and he's a genius.

I'm not discounting what you're saying here though, and as I've said I do think Ole makes mistakes. The big losses are always going to hurt and will be picked apart by many but its one side of a story isn't it? No mention of the great wins, the best performances, the numerous times we've come out a different side after half time and won matches we were struggling in.

Ole needs to improve certain aspects of his management. I think he needs to win a trophy next season. If he doesn't then it might well be time to say 'thanks so much and let's see what someone else can do with this squad'. Let's see what happens

Why do you only take champions league failures for Pep, when not take the league, FA cup, league cup?

 

[RuudTom83]

Yeah how dare we expect trophies after the club invests hundreds of millions

Interesting response.

 

[Roboc7]

People did get massively carried away with the progress they could see, to keep its always been fairly clear Ole had already done all he could do.

Last season was no different to when Jose finished second we were miles off the pace, needed new management, better coaching, better tactics as well as squad improvements to bridge the gap. We’ve spent years going full circle even to the extent of collapsing the following season and everything turning toxic.

Ole does leave behind better players but also a bloated and unbalanced squad. Lots of issues for next manager to resolve, no playing style, poor fitness and/or effort levels. Even though a bad environment does seem to be developing that’s common when it goes wrong and as soon as manager goes that tends to go with then as we found when Jose left.

 

[Adam-Utd]

No.

My opinion. Compared to Mourinho it's a hell of a lot better.

We've scored 6 a few times, 9 once.

It's not always been bad under Ole.

 

[Idxomer]

My opinion. Compared to Mourinho it's a hell of a lot better.

We've scored 6 a few times, 9 once.

It's not always been bad under Ole.

Our goals per game record isn't much better under Ole despite two campaigns in the EL.

It's slightly more entertaining than Mourinho's football, but it's not an exciting brand of football in general.

 

[acnumber9]

entertaining football,

Sometimes. It’s far from the norm though.

 

[redrobed]

No way, there’s still a long season ahead and we can still challenge, what’s the point of writing it off now if we get Conte? If you’re gonna write off the season might aswell stick with Ole as he’ll probably manage top 4 by the skin of his teeth

I just think the league’s too competitive at the top nowadays for a team to drop the points we have and still come back and win it - we’d need all 3 of City, Liverpool and Chelsea to give up 6-8 points vs us. I just don’t see it.

 

[Loony BoB]

I'd definitely say we play more attacking football under Ole, and for me that's the entertainment, so I'm in the "yes, we play entertaining football" camp. My problem is not our attack but our defence, and I don't think it's so much to do with Ole but his coaching team who, quite frankly, are generally rather unqualified. I like Carrick, but I don't think he warranted going to Assistant Manager without having even coached before. Fletcher as DoF is crazy too. I generally feel Ole earned his stint as a caretaker by having actually succeeded in a lower league, and his stint as caretaker was too impressive to not give him the job. It was quite frankly outstanding. I do feel Ole got his role through work and effort. I don't think Fletcher, Carrick or McKenna have earned their stripes enough to justify being assistant managers or DoF at United.

And I really, really, really like Fletcher. Was always one of my fave players. Still think it's ridiculous.

 

[RedBanker]

My opinion. Compared to Mourinho it's a hell of a lot better.

We've scored 6 a few times, 9 once.

It's not always been bad under Ole.

Hell lot better my arse. Scored 6 twice iirc. And Nine against a ten man Soton.

 

[Loony BoB]

Hell lot better my arse. Scored 6 twice iirc. And Nine against a ten man Soton.

Jose never saw us score more than four goals during his time in charge. Ole's done it at least ten times, including that 9-0 you mentioned.

 

[Bebestation]

Hell lot better my arse. Scored 6 twice iirc. And Nine against a ten man Soton.

To be fair people bring up the 6-1 loss against Spurs but that was against a 10 man United.

 

[RedBanker]

To be fair people bring up the 6-1 loss against Spurs but that was against a 10 man United.

Yes. That's why I don't consider it as a catastrophe in isolation. But the overall tenure leading up to a 5-0 humbling against arch rivals at home, wherein the opponents brazenly pitied us by not scoring after we were down to 10 has been one.