Our Defence - Has it actually been fixed?

Shamana said:
That's shocking stat. We payed 80 mil for Maguire and Liverpool payed 70 mil for VVD.
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Yes your point? Liverpool only have 6 clean sheets this season and United 3.

It doesn't matter how much you pay for your CB, you could have VVD in this United team and it wouldn't stop us conceding.

The difference is Liverpool have better protection, United don't.

Relying on Matic and Fred to defend is poor.
 
romufc said:
Yes your point? Liverpool only have 6 clean sheets this season and United 3.

It doesn't matter how much you pay for your CB, you could have VVD in this United team and it wouldn't stop us conceding.

The difference is Liverpool have better protection, United don't.

Relying on Matic and Fred to defend is poor.
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VVD is still 10 times the CB that Maguire is.
 
Sweet Square said:
Even if we fix the midfield, I don't think anyone would be happy with the defence, we've at best only got two world class defenders - Maguire(Although for a 80 million pound player, he has been shite) and Wan-Bissaka. Lindelof isn't showing any signs of being truly a great centre back(He barely showing signs of a competent one)and Shaw needs moving on in the summer.

Williams and Tuanzebe both need to start getting some more game time, just to see if there's any potential.
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I'm really curious as to why we aren't trying him in MF.
 
Sweet Square said:
Even if we fix the midfield, I don't think anyone would be happy with the defence, we've at best only got two world class defenders - Maguire(Although for a 80 million pound player, he has been shite) and Wan-Bissaka. Lindelof isn't showing any signs of being truly a great centre back(He barely showing signs of a competent one)and Shaw needs moving on in the summer.

Williams and Tuanzebe both need to start getting some more game time, just to see if there's any potential.
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Maguire and AWB are no where near world class atm, not even close. AWB makes Valencia look like Ronaldo when it comes to attacking. Maguire ? What's world class about him? Lackadaisical on the ball and 1-on-1 defending? Smalling is better and also quicker!
 
romufc said:
He is playing in a Liverpool team that dominates teams. Everyone knows he is better, I don't get your point?
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It makes us look like mugs. And he instantly improved their defense.
 
Shamana said:
It makes us look like mugs. And he instantly improved their defense.
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Yes, you are stating the obvious. Maguire has improved our defence too.

But talking about how VVD influence without actually putting it into context of the players infront is naive. If we are going to play away from home leaving their LB free and have a 2 v 1 we are always going to struggle.
 
romufc said:
He is playing in a Liverpool team that dominates teams. Everyone knows he is better, I don't get your point?
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Yea, BUT! like @Shamana mentioned, VVD instantly improved them. Their midfield is shit too, but still their back 4 is almost untouchable. Composure, vision, aggression. Something our little fairy's don't have any of!
 
romufc said:
Yes, you are stating the obvious. Maguire has improved our defence too.

But talking about how VVD influence without actually putting it into context of the players infront is naive. If we are going to play away from home leaving their LB free and have a 2 v 1 we are always going to struggle.
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Is it actually statiscally proven that our defense has improved?
 
TRUERED89 said:
Yea, BUT! like @Shamana mentioned, VVD instantly improved them. Their midfield is shit too, but still their back 4 is almost untouchable. Composure, vision, aggression. Something our little fairy's don't have any of!
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but it isn't is it. Fabinho is brilliant, and some credit to Liverpool actually, I thought they would struggle with him out for few weeks, but they have coped quite well. Henderson is playing exeptionally well. Keita is now fit and playing well. And Wijnaldum has to be one of the most underrated players in PL. Their midfield isn't shit at all. And it does help having those players in front of a defence, Fabinho offers great protectiom, so does Henderson now from what I have seen. It makes a big difference having responsible central pairing in front of a defence.
 
Borussin said:
but it isn't is it. Fabinho is brilliant, and some credit to Liverpool actually, I thought they would struggle with him out for few weeks, but they have coped quite well. Henderson is playing exeptionally well. Keita is now fit and playing well. And Wijnaldum has to be one of the most underrated players in PL. Their midfield isn't shit at all. And it does help having those players in front of a defence, Fabinho offers great protectiom, so does Henderson now from what I have seen. It makes a big difference having responsible central pairing in front of a defence.
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I only rate Fabinho tbh, back 4 and front 3 are world class though!
 
It is getting worse is the general feeling. Might be due to terrible management from Ole.
Although Maguire is not really better than Smalling.

De geas decline is the biggest problem. Although Ole has just turned the blind eye for that.
 
TRUERED89 said:
Yea, BUT! like @Shamana mentioned, VVD instantly improved them. Their midfield is shit too, but still their back 4 is almost untouchable. Composure, vision, aggression. Something our little fairy's don't have any of!
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Yes they have a shit midfield? I think you need a footballing lesson. How many times do those Midfielders score important goals? help the team defensively?

How many times do they give the ball away?
 
Shamana said:
Is it actually statiscally proven that our defense has improved?
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yes, compare the goals conceded last year to this year.

We have also conceded alot of goals this season from individual mistakes.
 
romufc said:
Yes they have a shit midfield? I think you need a footballing lesson. How many times do those Midfielders score important goals? help the team defensively?

How many times do they give the ball away?
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I only rate Fabinho. Not a fan of Hendo, Wij, Keita. But fair play to them they're all working like a well oiled footballing machine, unfortunately for us.
 
We should really see what sort of job AWB could do at centre back. He’s one of the best defenders we’ve had in years but offers little going forward. He’s quicker and sharper than both Maguire and Lindelof. He’s well over 6ft too, and he’s young enough to adapt.
 
hungrywing said:
I'd bet a rack of lamb that professional scouting data will show that's mostly due to AWB replacing Young.
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yes the man who got kept getting skinned yesterday and conceded a silly penalty against Watford.

A player who cannot seem to attack either.

Go on show us stats that prove that.
 
TRUERED89 said:
I only rate Fabinho. Not a fan of Hendo, Wij, Keita. But fair play to them they're all working like a well oiled footballing machine, unfortunately for us.
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Exactly, I am not a fan but the way they have all been developed to play in the team is unreal. hardwork, playing for the team. You don't see them walking around the pitch or giving the ball away in dangerous areas. How many times do Fred and Matic lose the ball and it is 3 v 3 or something, what do you expect the defence to do then?
 
romufc said:
Yes your point? Liverpool only have 6 clean sheets this season and United 3.

It doesn't matter how much you pay for your CB, you could have VVD in this United team and it wouldn't stop us conceding.

The difference is Liverpool have better protection, United don't.

Relying on Matic and Fred to defend is poor.
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This all day. Liverpool defence/keeper are nothing special. VVD is world class and their fullbacks are great at attacking, but as an actual defence it benefits from what happens over the rest of the pitch loads. Even if they get attacked as much as we do, the better organisation in every position does wonders when it comes to not being pulled all over the place, and even makes for more predictable shots on goal.
 
VeevaVee said:
This all day. Liverpool defence/keeper are nothing special. VVD is world class and their fullbacks are great at attacking, but as an actual defence it benefits from what happens over the rest of the pitch loads. Even if they get attacked as much as we do, the better organisation in every position does wonders when it comes to not being pulled all over the place, and even makes for more predictable shots on goal.
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People don't seem to understand defence is not about individual players. It is the structure and organisation from the strikers, how to press, how to cover players out of position, distance between players everything.

Look at the Arsenal defence which consists of poor individual players but yesterday we couldn't get through because they were organised.

United are not, we get dragged about every game we play. This is down to the manager and how he organises the team.
 
romufc said:
Exactly, I am not a fan but the way they have all been developed to play in the team is unreal. hardwork, playing for the team. You don't see them walking around the pitch or giving the ball away in dangerous areas. How many times do Fred and Matic lose the ball and it is 3 v 3 or something, what do you expect the defence to do then?
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In your opinion, has our defence improved ? Or our poor midfield just make them look awful? I think we've gone backwards in both areas of the pitch tbh. Both Arsenal goals yesterday were the fault of the back 4 imo not necessarily the midfield. Particularly AWB and Lindelöf for the first one.
 
TRUERED89 said:
I only rate Fabinho tbh, back 4 and front 3 are world class though!
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that's fair enough! I respect your opinion. I rate Keita also, Wijnaldum too. LFC midfield sort of reminds me of a higher profile version of our midfields when Klopp was at Dortmund, not overly flashy as individuals, but intelligent and a really strong unit. With the exeption of Keita, we never had a similar player to him, he's more individual.

And the midfield certainly are inportant to overall defensive structure too in my opinion. I believe that to be true for Liverpool, as it is with most really good teams. The midfield unit is key.
 
TRUERED89 said:
In your opinion, has our defence improved ? Or our poor midfield just make them look awful? I think we've gone backwards in both areas of the pitch tbh. Both Arsenal goals yesterday were the fault of the back 4 imo not necessarily the midfield. Particularly AWB and Lindelöf for the first one.
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In my opinion yes our defence has improved however, our midfield would barely even get a start for bottom club Norwich which is the biggest problem.

If you look at teams who are successful and highlight the important players you will see that the CDM role is the key.

Fabinho this year
Fernandinho previous 2
Kante
Casemeiro
Busquets

We wonder why we are so crap, its because we havent had a CDM since Carrick and every manager seems to neglect this position.

Even teams like Leicester with Ndidi, Arsenal with Toerreira look so much better with these players in the team.

We need to sign a CDM.
 
romufc said:
In my opinion yes our defence has improved however, our midfield would barely even get a start for bottom club Norwich which is the biggest problem.

If you look at teams who are successful and highlight the important players you will see that the CDM role is the key.

Fabinho this year
Fernandinho previous 2
Kante
Casemeiro
Busquets

We wonder why we are so crap, its because we havent had a CDM since Carrick and every manager seems to neglect this position.

Even teams like Leicester with Ndidi, Arsenal with Toerreira look so much better with these players in the team.

We need to sign a CDM.
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A replacement for JLingz at CAM too!
 
We will always have weaknesses in the squad. We always have, BUT it seems that every player we sign just reveals more problems we have. Is Maguire really an upgrade on Smalling? Probably, but he doesn't look it because he's got Lindelof and Shaw/Young next to him.

Also, McTominay is suddenly like the most important player in the team. He has improved a lot, but it just shows how poor the replacements are.
 
It's disappointing that besides AWB we don't have a defender who i'm almost always confident will win a duel with the player he's marking. Lindelof and Maguire did really well against Burnley in a really tough physical battle but they don't do it consistently enough.


Look at 0:39 at Shaw and the way he tries to pull Pepe over. He got booked about ten times for doing that last season and he's STILL doing it this season. Also the way Maguire is beaten at 1:00 it's just frustrating :mad:
 
TRUERED89 said:
I only rate Fabinho. Not a fan of Hendo, Wij, Keita. But fair play to them they're all working like a well oiled footballing machine, unfortunately for us.
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Their midfield is the engine room as to why Liverpool are where they are right now, though they are not world class per say(with the possible exception of Fabinho) but are all highly skilled, international class, midfielders who are disciplined and focused to comply with the system the manager has set them up in, be it to fill in for one of the full backs when they go on one of their runs or to pop up with vital goals which each of them has done. If have a class manager with a system that the players believe you will win more than you lose irrespective if you have world class players or not, just ask SAF when he had Fletcher and Park in his title winning teams.
 
Liverpool's midfield is still three or four times better than ours. What Klopp does brilleantly well is buy players who contemplate each other well and are work horses and positionally and tactically excellent.

Watching them pass the ball through midfield and onto the forwards is joy to behold compared to Lingard, Scott ,Andreas, Matic and even Fred. A couple of passes and their miles up the pitch compared to our dopes who pass it sideways.

Jaysus Ole sign a couple of midfielders will ya!! At least three.
 
romufc said:
Yes they have a shit midfield? I think you need a footballing lesson. How many times do those Midfielders score important goals? help the team defensively?

How many times do they give the ball away?
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Their midfield in general is average. They have all worked hard to improve themselves but the decisive factor is Klopp. If we had a midfield of Henderson, Milner and Wijnaldum would they have anywhere near the output they have for Liverpool? Or would we be calling them the worst midfield to have played for us?
 
romufc said:
Yes they have a shit midfield? I think you need a footballing lesson. How many times do those Midfielders score important goals? help the team defensively?

How many times do they give the ball away?
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agree, and they work their ass off in every situation. they are not the most technical midfield but have work ethic.
 
Might not be world class defence. But to find out we need to solve the biggest problem and that is minimum 2 midfielders. Especially the defensive midfielder to protect the defence and improve the players around him.
 
I think Mcguire is catching a lot of undue flack. He is by no means the best centre back in the world, but that is not to say that he is a good one. Lindelof and Shaw have been the real issues in defense. Lindelof in particular has failed to prove himself despite being given chance after chance to develop a partnership with Mcguire. He lacks bravery and still finds it difficult to deal with physicality. His inabiity to handle certain situations on his own, forces either Awb or mcguire out of position, which hurts us particularly on the counter. I am not too worried about the defence as I believe given time, Tuanzebe and Williams will eventually displace both of their starting positions.

Our main concern defensively is our midfield. The inability of our midfielders to move the ball forward creates lots of counter attacking opportunities for the opposition. In addition to this ( by design), despite not offering any form of creativity, lingard/perreira play more as second strikers than midfielders, and in yesterday's case, if mctominay is not there to make up the ground to prevent counter attacks, we are really exposed. We find it difficult to keep the ball, as neither Fred or Mctominay are good passers of the ball. In most good teams in the modern day, at least one midfielder carries the responsibility of making up to 55 plus passes a game. These players usually have a high passing percentage as well. In cases where the lead is being held or a sustained level of possession is needed, these players help the team control the game with the ball. We concede as much as we do as we have noone to alleviate that pressure. Pogba showed us how it would be if we had a midfielder to help control closed games in the win against Burnley.

I also feel that our defenders try too hard to play the ball out of defence. It may be due to a lack of passers, but I still feel that due to the level of workers we have in midfield, particular in games Mctominay is playing, we have the advantage of height and aggression that would allow us to win second balls quickly and open up the game in the middle, as opposed to letting the opponent sit off us as we have for the majority of the season. If we can't break teams down that play deep, then we should force a midfield battle, statistics show that we would win the majority of the time as we win the majority of our aerial duels and second balls.
 
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