Our best players are also our biggest issues

Dannn411 said:
Why are people still picking Antony in their teams? Have you not had enough torture?
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That's not my choice of a team. When you spend 80 million on your own choice for the RW position it's safe to say he's part of the manager's thinking in terms of the team going forward.

It does highlight what i meant to say though in that there are some huge question marks in that starting 11 for me.
 
justsomebloke said:
No, what we're seeing now is a team that finished in the top four in 3 of the past 4 seasons - that is, really a quite good football team - performing well below its normal levels. To make out that this is a logical, inescapable consequence of inherent limitations in our best players is ridiculous.
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Hey, if the goal is only ever going to be top 4, to keep hovering around the 70-75 point range then there's no issue. The current squad is absolutely capable of getting there again, whatever limitations it might have.
 
RedStarUnited said:
Bruno Fernandes - Cant play the posesion game, physically weak and full of mistakes BUT he is the most creative player in the squad.

Casemiro - Looks leggy, isnt a tempo setter/good passer BUT he our best and only DM.

Rashford - Lazy at pressing, cant hold up play, his general game is average at best BUT he is our most dangerous weapon in attack with Bruno.

Shaw - No intensity in attack or defence, 18 assists in the PL in 9 years BUT again theres no one better than him in the squad.

All of the above players know they are playing every week. Because we have zero alternatives so we just tend to accept and live with their deficiencies. Having 2 players ill suited to a possession game in the midfield is a huge problem.
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Totally agree.

Our best players currently wouldn't get a sniff in any of Ferguson's teams. That is how far our standards have fallen.

What is clear is that we need a rebuild that will take a few seasons atleast to become contenders. We need to replace the weak links but also upgrade on the likes of Bruno. No way we win the league with him as our best player. I've suggested this before and been shot down with stats comparing him to De Bruyne. Fact is that De Bruyne doesn't lose possession as easily and his piercing runs are on another level.
 
sammyhol said:
Well here is a coincidence. I specifically referenced these players in the ETH thread but with a different narrative…

agree that they are all flawed.

but surely the bigger question is, as these are our better players… why aren’t we playing to their strengths?

We know rashford is great facing goal from wide positions, but terrible facing away from goal in central positions… so why play him as a 9??

we know Shaw is a key ball carrier in wide areas, so why play him inside?

we know Bruno is creative but has poor ball retention… so why play him as an 8 and not a 10?

we know Casemiro is a great progressive passer, and great at tight pressure but needs legs alongside him. So why leave him so exposed?

we had the most obvious midfield need in world football this summer….

“Okay… I’ve got a great 10.. he’s gonna be my captain, but needs a proper midfield behind him… and I’ve got a great experienced 6, but he’s not the most mobile…. So what is missing?…. I know!! Mason Mount!”

said no sane person ever!

we managed to pay basically double the amount than what city paid for the player we actually needed from Chelsea (Kovacic)

peak Utd!


Well here is a coincidence. I specifically referenced these players in the ETH thread but with a different narrative…

agree that they are all flawed.

but surely the bigger question is, as these are our better players… why aren’t we playing to their strengths?

We know rashford is great facing goal from wide positions, but terrible facing away from goal in central positions… so why play him as a 9??

we know Shaw is a key ball carrier in wide areas, so why play him inside?

we know Bruno is creative but has poor ball retention… so why play him as an 8 and not a 10?

we know Casemiro is a great progressive passer, and great at tight pressure but needs legs alongside him. So why leave him so exposed?

we had the most obvious midfield need in world football this summer….

“Okay… I’ve got a great 10.. he’s gonna be my captain, but needs a proper midfield behind him… and I’ve got a great experienced 6, but he’s not the most mobile…. So what is missing?…. I know!! Mason Mount!”

said no sane person ever!

we managed to pay basically double the amount than what city paid for the player we actually needed from Chelsea (Kovacic)

peak Utd!
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Bolded part for me. We’ve got a World Class No.10 that we’re doing anything with but playing him there which would be fine if we were some cohesive unit but buying Mount & Antony in consecutive Summers tells me EtH is one hell of a manager but should have nothing to do with recruitment bar a Malacia here & there.
 
Rightnr said:
The problem is simply that our 'best' players are just not very good at football in the technical aspect. People don't like to admit it but it doesn't change the truth.
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It's apt calling them best with quotation marks around it. They tend to be our most serviceable and available but they definitely leave a lot to be desired on the technical aspect, especially Rashford and Bruno. For example last season Rashy was our most productive forward but if I was to rate him on football technical ability and IQ, at best he's fourth after Martial, Amad and Sancho.
 
Siorac said:
Hey, if the goal is only ever going to be top 4, to keep hovering around the 70-75 point range then there's no issue. The current squad is absolutely capable of getting there again, whatever limitations it might have.
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As if that was the point.
 
Once we see how this line-up functions, we will see who our best players actually are.



EDIT. Not sure why player names aren't showing

Onana

AWB
Varane
martinez
Shaw

Casemiro
Bruno
Mount

Sancho
Rashford
Hojlund
 
RedStarUnited said:
Rashford - Lazy at pressing, cant hold up play, his general game is average at best BUT he is our most dangerous weapon in attack with Bruno.
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When he is out of form (currently and end of last season) it is his finishing that suffers and when he is flying high it is because he finishes clinically (early last season) so your analysis doesn't fit reality. You make it sound like he is always good finisher and other things make him non-ideal. That is not factually correct: He is inconsistent in his finishing. And yeah - playing him out of position hasn't helped anybody but Glazers, but I am not sure it matters where he plays by the time he is in front of goalkeeper and cannot score
 
UnofficialDevil said:
Actually, he isn't one of our best players, he is our best player.
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If that’s the case we are well and truly bcuked because he definitely isn’t all that. I seen a pre season training video of Rashford crossing a ball in for Bruno after training and commenting on how he doesn’t know where Bruno gets the energy from. This for me speaks volumes on his sub conscious thoughts on hard work. He literally doesn’t have it in him.
 
Not even sure the premise makes sense. If your best players are your biggest issues and you remove said best players what is to be expected then? Probably an awful side that wouldn't even get in the top 8 and a requirement to spend a billion quid which isn't practical.

Nope, I think we have to work with what we have, and constantly build up, not offer excuses to managers that even the best players cant be worked with. What is the implication? Sell the whole squad and start from scratch. Not a very insightful idea.

But it's clear we can't afford things that seem like colossal mistakes like Antony, and to some extent Mount. That's a lot of resources that are going awry. We just can't afford that with this ownership and the competitiveness of the league. It shows up quickly. We need to sort the recruitment out, which we've been saying for years.
 
justsomebloke said:
As if that was the point.
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What was the point then? You cited top four finishes as evidence of this being a quite good football team, albeit one currently playing below its capabilities. I'm saying that in the context of aiming for top 4 this is indeed a good enough football team but for anything more than that we have serious problems, including the profile of our best attacking players.
 
The argument from OP is all over the place. Do you mean our best players are our biggest issues because they don't allow United to achieve what? If the goal is to achieve possession, then I agree, but then I don't see how you can include Shaw who is better in possession than AWB.

You should have left it at Bruno and Rashford if your point was that you want United to dominate possession. That's if possession helps United perform better, which is a reasonable take.
 
In Rainbows said:
The argument from OP is all over the place. Do you mean our best players are our biggest issues because they don't allow United to achieve what? If the goal is to achieve possession, then I agree, but then I don't see how you can include Shaw who is better in possession than AWB.

You should have left it at Bruno and Rashford if your point was that you want United to dominate possession. That's if possession helps United perform better, which is a reasonable take.
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This is Shaw’s 10th season, he’s been useless for the majority of that spell, when will people accept that he isn’t good enough, he’s 28, bin him
 
Siorac said:
What was the point then? You cited top four finishes as evidence of this being a quite good football team, albeit one currently playing below its capabilities. I'm saying that in the context of aiming for top 4 this is indeed a good enough football team but for anything more than that we have serious problems, including the profile of our best attacking players.
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You were arguing that why we're not good right now is because we're trying to play a more ambitious form of football that we can't make work because of Bruno and Rashford. Which is a fecking ridiculous argument, unless you're so stuck in your own tunnel vision that you've lost sight of everything else.
 
justsomebloke said:
You were arguing that why we're not good right now is because we're trying to play a more ambitious form of football that we can't make work because of Bruno and Rashford. Which is a fecking ridiculous argument, unless you're so stuck in your own tunnel vision that you've lost sight of everything else.
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No, that's not what I was saying at all.

Currently, we are trying to play a stupid form of football without a midfield because of the baffling Mount signing.

The Mount transfer and ETH's comments about being a transition team point to us wanting to play a sort of football that 1) theoretically brings the best out of Rashford and Bruno and 2) I think limits what we can achieve because that sort of football is not enough at the top level.

But again, the current abysmal level is mostly down to not having a striker and not having a midfield.
 
FriedClams said:
Once we see how this line-up functions, we will see who our best players actually are.



EDIT. Not sure why player names aren't showing

Onana

AWB
Varane
martinez
Shaw

Casemiro
Bruno
Mount

Sancho
Rashford
Hojlund
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As already shown in just two games that midfield 3 wont work in the Premier League. We either need a Kanté type DM or another creative/holding midfield. Mount is neither and that’s why it’s a shite signing. He will get stick by United fans but it’s not really his fault. Once again buying a player and then pushing him into a position he’s not comfortable with. Mount either replaces Bruno or doesn’t start and that’s precisely why I questioned the transfer in the first place.
 
Quagmire Maguire said:
I can't believe anyone genuinely believes Rashford is one of our best players.
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Been saying this for ages and ages. Even through his purple patch last season it looked obvious that was exactly what was happening. Our icon is decent at his absolute best and is rewarded by ridiculous contract. This is why we're where we are. Most other teams (like Madrid) move on players like Case when it's clear they're on the way out, we buy them and give them long contracts. Top sides recognise that players with a load of weaknesses need shipping out, but we make them our talisman or captain.
 
Think elements of knee jerk reactions with so many names being mentioned after first couple fo games, Shaw and MArtinez for example have been really good last season and Shaw for a couple of seasons now and Martinez hasnt even been bad the first two games...Shaw was yesterday......

But, I agree with the general sentiment, for a number of years our star players have been a big problem as they havent performed consistently, Pogba being an obvious recent example and I put up two players who very much fall in to this category......

Rashford - Absolutely world class for a period last season, but it was four months and he faded considerably at the end of the season. He was also injuries or not dreadful the season before. He is 25 now, is it seven seasons here? He is obviously talented abd a good player, but I have always felt over rated in terms of his performances consistently here. May be harsh but we are talkign the star player here who is supposedly world class, when in terms of consistency and eprformance, really he is more like Nani who was also a wonderful talent who had big moments but was inconsistent over his career here and remember wasnt often even a starter.

Fernandes - Works his socks off, fantastic in his first fe months. But again world class and people keep comparing him to KDB and pointing out how KDB is also wasteful and the stats compare. Hogwash h isnt in the same league as KDB. Abd bar that first period, he has been poor as often as he has been good, he is no more consistent than Pogba was here. I also think the whining and inconsistency ad wastefulness......he should never have been made captain

These are two talented players without a shadow of a doubt. They are also our two star players that have shown no more consistecy than Pogba. Rashford needs to be on the left not up front, Fernandes needs competition for his role, which he may actually have in Mount now......as Mount is nevr going to be our number 8, we need Mainoo to come through or sign another

But these two both get nowhere near our best sides and dont actually start for a few other sides in the premiership.

Our stars arent as great as made out, or squad options in several areas are very weak. What is good in our side for me are the players in between and strangely it is a few of them get the most flak
 
I don’t have an issue with our back 5. Onana looks good. Varane and Martinez are solid at the back and I believe the inverted fullbacks will eventually work.

everything in front of them however is failing.

the way I see it…

In central midfield Casemiro is so exposed, McT ain’t good enough and Eriksen is physically done.

In front of them Bruno is unbelievably wasteful and we’re yet to see anything from Mount

Out wide, on the right, Antony is so frustrating. Amad untested. And whilst I like the tenacity of Pellistri he’s very raw.

On the left Rashfords best position. He ain’t a striker and Garnacho who has amazing potential but not yet really impacting as a starter

Sancho - bit of a meh player. Don’t want him on the right. He won’t get in ahead of Bruno/mount centrally and there’s two ahead of him on the left. Only place I see for him is false 9 without Hojlund to enable Rashford back to his preferred position

Up top we have 1 striker, Hojlund, with a long term future at the club. And of course Martial who is unreliable and let’s be honest, never looks interested.

we need to stop playing players in positions that aren’t their best. Being just able to play a role in an alternative position doesn’t mean it should be forced.

our squad building is crazy poor. Quick example…surely the club know Rashford is best at LF and we’re aware they had a gem in Garnacho. Yet we go and spaff so much money on Sancho (who operates best on the left) and he can now barely get a look in.

Early days. Hopefully ETH can work with what he has…and get them to start working as a team. At the minute, 2 games in we look a mess
 
Always makes me laugh how some players can be scapegoats and we think getting rid of certain players are the problem.
 
Litch said:
Always makes me laugh how some players can be scapegoats and we think getting rid of certain players are the problem.
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I honestly dont know how to explain it cos its like a vicious cycle. We cant go on to be the title contenders we want be with these “best” player but we also have to play them because they are the best of what we have.

ETH has to find a system that works or he is done.
 
Quagmire Maguire said:
I grew up watching Cantona, Sheringham, Yorke, Cole, RVN, Rooney et el leading the line. Rashford couldn't lace their boots.
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This is true, and would also be relevant if those players were in our squad now. They’re not, and he’s better than most of the ones who are
 
RedStarUnited said:
Bruno Fernandes - Cant play the posesion game, physically weak and full of mistakes BUT he is the most creative player in the squad.

Casemiro - Looks leggy, isnt a tempo setter/good passer BUT he our best and only DM.

Rashford - Lazy at pressing, cant hold up play, his general game is average at best BUT he is our most dangerous weapon in attack with Bruno.

Shaw - No intensity in attack or defence, 18 assists in the PL in 9 years BUT again theres no one better than him in the squad.

All of the above players know they are playing every week. Because we have zero alternatives so we just tend to accept and live with their deficiencies. Having 2 players ill suited to a possession game in the midfield is a huge problem.
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every player has strengths and weaknesses, otherwise they’d all be the best in the world. You could apply this same logic to most players
 
TsuWave said:
I disagree. Either way, he's not listed in the OP though, and he's our best player.
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Not so far this season he isn’t. Varane and Onana have been our best player, so maybe they’re the problem. Who knows the Caf is just doing to usual toxic stuff.
 
Our so-called two best players(Rashford and Bruno) are not the issue. The manager constructed a system that revolves around their strengths.
There is nothing stopping ETH from making them bit part players instead of making the two most tactically naive and streaky players the cornerstone of his team. What happens for 70mins when both are off in the game is on the manager to figure out.
Im more into solid players than the moments type. If only our manager will accept them for who they truly are and stop pretending they are more than we’ve seen all these years. I don’t think any team can carry two such players to success or build a team around both at the same time.
Both players have phenomenal strengths that are unmatched but their weaknesses are catastrophic for any team that wants to consistently deliver victory. If we continue down this road ETH will be rebuilding for the next 3 years.
 
gaffs said:
I will add AWB to this. He gets props for his defending, but he is so limited and hesitant in going forward.

Makes me wonder why we bother with a keeper like Onana when he has a player like AWB, who doesn't look to want the ball.
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Not one of our best players through. I’d argue he should never be a starting rb at a big club.
 
Yeah I agree that they’re a big problem. Both are sloppy in their general play and moments players who are emblematic of the football we play - often disjoint and at times effective. The only way to alleviate it is to buy well in other positions to make up for their weaknesses. And it appears that we have not been able to do that.
 
sammyhol said:
Well here is a coincidence. I specifically referenced these players in the ETH thread but with a different narrative…
Well here is a coincidence. I specifically referenced these players in the ETH thread but with a different narrative…

agree that they are all flawed.

but surely the bigger question is, as these are our better players… why aren’t we playing to their strengths?

We know rashford is great facing goal from wide positions, but terrible facing away from goal in central positions… so why play him as a 9??

we know Shaw is a key ball carrier in wide areas, so why play him inside?

we know Bruno is creative but has poor ball retention… so why play him as an 8 and not a 10?

we know Casemiro is a great progressive passer, and great at tight pressure but needs legs alongside him. So why leave him so exposed?

we had the most obvious midfield need in world football this summer….

“Okay… I’ve got a great 10.. he’s gonna be my captain, but needs a proper midfield behind him… and I’ve got a great experienced 6, but he’s not the most mobile…. So what is missing?…. I know!! Mason Mount!”

said no sane person ever!

we managed to pay basically double the amount than what city paid for the player we actually needed from Chelsea (Kovacic)

peak Utd!
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who’d of thought it eh?!…

playing Bruno and Rashford in their best positions, and they both are central in creating 3 goals in a game.

how shocking….
 
Every game it's the same issues with the Case - Bruno - Rash trio.

This team desperately needs something else.
 
acnumber9 said:
That they’re surrounded by worse players?
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Mount has been easily better than Bruno for a start and Rashford plays like he's the only forward on the pitch. Casemiro is the most reckless defensive midfielder in the league on and off the ball. There's no excuse for him to play like this with his experience.
 
Idxomer said:
Mount has been easily better than Bruno for a start and Rashford plays like he's the only forward on the pitch. Casemiro is the most reckless defensive midfielder in the league on and off the ball. There's no excuse for him to play like this with his experience.
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It’s one half of football. Over a season Bruno Rashford and Casemiro will easily contribute more than those around them. The idea that our best players are our biggest problem is stupid.
 
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