Our best players are also our biggest issues

RedStarUnited

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Bruno Fernandes - Cant play the posesion game, physically weak and full of mistakes BUT he is the most creative player in the squad.

Casemiro - Looks leggy, isnt a tempo setter/good passer BUT he our best and only DM.

Rashford - Lazy at pressing, cant hold up play, his general game is average at best BUT he is our most dangerous weapon in attack with Bruno.

Shaw - No intensity in attack or defence, 18 assists in the PL in 9 years BUT again theres no one better than him in the squad.

All of the above players know they are playing every week. Because we have zero alternatives so we just tend to accept and live with their deficiencies. Having 2 players ill suited to a possession game in the midfield is a huge problem.
 
I will add AWB to this. He gets props for his defending, but he is so limited and hesitant in going forward.

Makes me wonder why we bother with a keeper like Onana when he has a player like AWB, who doesn't look to want the ball.
 
RedStarUnited said:
Bruno Fernandes - Cant play the posesion game, physically weak and full of mistakes BUT he is the most creative player in the squad.

Casemiro - Looks leggy, isnt a tempo setter/good passer BUT he our best and only DM.

Rashford - Lazy at pressing, cant hold up play, his general game is average at best BUT he is our most dangerous weapon in attack with Bruno.

Shaw - No intensity in attack or defence, 18 assists in the PL in 9 years BUT again theres no one better than him in the squad.

All of the above players know they are playing every week. Because we have zero alternatives so we just tend to accept and live with their deficiencies. Having 2 players ill suited to a possession game in the midfield is a huge problem.
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Martinez - our best CB but also slow, weak, rash and small. Loads of good qualities but has obvious deficiencies and I feel we need a different partner for him to cover for these
 
Yes. We are pretty much trapped because of our lack of planning. And now we've added Mount to make the upcoming rebuild that bit more difficult.
 
I don't agree with any of that tbh. None of them were an issue last season before wee started playing a suicidal system.

Rashford has been extremely poor the first two games and looks like he needs a kick up the backside. Shaw looks off the pace which is nothing new for him early in a season. The other two are being hung out to dry along with Mount by our crazy midfield setup.
 
noodlehair said:
I don't agree with any of that tbh. None of them were an issue last season before wee started playing a suicidal system.

Rashford has been extremely poor the first two games and looks like he needs a kick up the backside. Shaw looks off the pace which is nothing new for him early in a season. The other two are being hung out to dry along with Mount by our crazy midfield setup.
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But they are an issue in the sense that Ten Hag is seemingly building the team around their strengths and unfortunately that means giving up on improving our awful ball retention and instead doubling down on directness and counter-attacks.

Which is fine, if the aim is to win the Europa League.
 
I agree tbh. Some people will defend Rashford and Bruno like they can do no wrong. But in reality they're so inconsistent, reckless, brain dead, and in Rashfords case lazy, that it speaks volumes about the state of the team when they're considered the very best we have. One of them is even captain. It's a symptom of how badly we've recruited for such a long time.
 
"our best players" ?

Those on the list (+ more) have been inconsistent for years, but they still here because when they have patches of being good, we as fans then think they're the best players in the world and the board offers them new contracts instantly to reward them because hey, they're assets now....

Don't even get me started how Bruno misplaces so many passes for years, he is so up and down and it's not even been addressed and now we have him as captain fantastic.

We're just never catching city because of this
 
Rashford and Shaw, two players from the lvg era with zero winning mentality. Fecking bottlers the both of them. Add low quality players like Dalot, Antony to the mix and we suddenly look very terrible. Anfield fans will as usual have a field day with these players.
 
If we'd bought better players in other positions, they'd no longer be our best players.

£80m winger should be up there for our best player. Yet he's one of our worst.
 
I have ben saying this but then again our planning is very poor. Bruno and Case have their own limitations in ball retention and we all know that. however, instead of striking a balance by adding another midfielder who is very good in ball retention and who is press resistant, we go all out and add other midfielder who share the same deficiency thinking that will make us the best transition team in the world just because Mount can move the ball faster and works hard? it does not work that way. We now completely lost control of games
 
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noodlehair said:
I don't agree with any of that tbh. None of them were an issue last season before wee started playing a suicidal system.

Rashford has been extremely poor the first two games and looks like he needs a kick up the backside. Shaw looks off the pace which is nothing new for him early in a season. The other two are being hung out to dry along with Mount by our crazy midfield setup.
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They did great last season, it isnt enough for a team with title aspirations though. In the games that really matter and when the team is really up against it and needs a goal from somewhere, they don't convert, even when presented with clear chances. This happens far too often.
 
Well ETH should either try to get the best out of our best players (which he has not done so far as I don’t know how Mount signing could help Bruno), or he should buy better players suited to the way he wants to play (but again if those players are Antony and Mount, then what’s the point in buying him more players like those?).
He needed to buy the right midfielder to complement Bruno and Casimiro and he bought Mount.
 
noodlehair said:
I don't agree with any of that tbh. None of them were an issue last season before wee started playing a suicidal system.

Rashford has been extremely poor the first two games and looks like he needs a kick up the backside. Shaw looks off the pace which is nothing new for him early in a season. The other two are being hung out to dry along with Mount by our crazy midfield setup.
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As another poster suggested, i think it's a more of a question of how are we going to eventually evolve into a premier league winning side rather than just a top 4 team with them as a base and it's a fair question I think. I've said a fair few times that on paper i see a good/very good, capable team here that can get top 4 but i'm not really sure what the plan is to go to the next level without spending an absolute feck ton more money.

Onana
AWB Varane Martinez Shaw
Bruno Casemiro Mount
Antony Hojlund Rashford​

Hopefully Hojlund will hit the ground running and be a star but, stupid formation aside, there are still a fair few question marks there about consistency and even the quality of the overall side to be a league winning team eventually.
 
Irwin99 said:
As another poster suggested, i think it's a more of a question of how are we going to eventually evolve into a premier league winning side rather than just a top 4 team with them as a base and it's a fair question I think. I've said a fair few times that on paper i see a good/very good, capable team here that can get top 4 but i'm not really sure what the plan is to go to the next level without spending an absolute feck ton more money.

Onana
AWB Varane Martinez Shaw
Bruno Casemiro Mount
Antony Hojlund Rashford​

Hopefully Hojlund will hit the ground running and be a star but, stupid formation aside, there are still a fair few question marks there about consistency and even the quality of the overall side to be a league winning team eventually.
Click to expand...

Rashford and Anthony will never be part of a league winning team. Their ball retention and productivity are terrible.

To a lesser extent, and I love him... But I don't think Bruno is good enough at retaining the ball to take us to the top.
 
lilcurt said:
Rashford and Anthony will never be part of a league winning team. Their ball retention and productivity are terrible.

To a lesser extent, and I love him... But I don't think Bruno is good enough at retaining the ball to take us to the top.
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feel exactly the same, I like Bruno a lot but that miss tonight just happens too often. Happened against Spurs at WHL last season where he had a chance to put us two goals in front and he smashed an easy (ish) chance against the bar that game which came back to haunt us and it happened again with a far easier chance today. Obviously players can miss chances and have bad days but it just happens too often.

We wouldn't have been anywhere near top 4 last year if it wasn't for Rashford's goals and he deserves a lot of praise for that but geez, have i seen that type of performance today a LOT over the years (hands thrown in the air, nothing come off, looks moody, doesn't press well etc.). It's just frustrating and it does create doubts.
 
Quagmire Maguire said:
I grew up watching Cantona, Sheringham, Yorke, Cole, RVN, Rooney et el leading the line. Rashford couldn't lace their boots.
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I did too. And you're right, those older players were at a different level. But it doesn't change the fact that Rashford is one of our best players right now.
 
Siorac said:
But they are an issue in the sense that Ten Hag is seemingly building the team around their strengths and unfortunately that means giving up on improving our awful ball retention and instead doubling down on directness and counter-attacks.

Which is fine, if the aim is to win the Europa League.
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There's nothing wrong with playing to your strengths and again I just don't agree with that statement. Playing to Casemiro's strengths won Real 5 champions leagues. So your statement is nonsense.

Also, more to the point. We aren't playing to Casemiro, Rashford or Fernandes's strengths at all. We're doing the complete opposite. Casemiro isn't a one man midfield, Fernandes can't be effective in a team with 1 midfielder and Rashford is not effective as a no9. Rashford is there due to other players being injured but the other two it's self inflicted by our unworkable system.

If they are our best players then we probably shouldn't be setting up to render them ineffective.
 
lilcurt said:
Rashford and Anthony will never be part of a league winning team. Their ball retention and productivity are terrible.

To a lesser extent, and I love him... But I don't think Bruno is good enough at retaining the ball to take us to the top.
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Does he even want to? It feels like he just wants to get the ball into the box as soon as possible. Who knows if that is team instruction or just his instinct.
 
RedStarUnited said:
Bruno Fernandes - Cant play the posesion game, physically weak and full of mistakes BUT he is the most creative player in the squad.

Casemiro - Looks leggy, isnt a tempo setter/good passer BUT he our best and only DM.

Rashford - Lazy at pressing, cant hold up play, his general game is average at best BUT he is our most dangerous weapon in attack with Bruno.

Shaw - No intensity in attack or defence, 18 assists in the PL in 9 years BUT again theres no one better than him in the squad.

All of the above players know they are playing every week. Because we have zero alternatives so we just tend to accept and live with their deficiencies. Having 2 players ill suited to a possession game in the midfield is a huge problem.
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Mate. It's round two.
 
The problem is simply that our 'best' players are just not very good at football in the technical aspect. People don't like to admit it but it doesn't change the truth.
 
AndySmith1990 said:
I agree tbh. Some people will defend Rashford and Bruno like they can do no wrong. But in reality they're so inconsistent, reckless, brain dead, and in Rashfords case lazy, that it speaks volumes about the state of the team when they're considered the very best we have. One of them is even captain. It's a symptom of how badly we've recruited for such a long time.
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I'd like to see you make that argument after game where they both performed at a typical, representative level, average for them. Since you're making a general observation about their quality, the argument ought to be just as valid under those circumstances.
 
AndySmith1990 said:
It's little wonder our attack is so poor when Rashford is the best we have. All our rivals have better players than him
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Sorry, but that's effectively an admission of insanity. Or blindness.

But why am I posting in this thread. I should know better. Every time the chips are down and things have gone badly for a couple of games, out comes the lot for whom it's just not enough that we've played badly, we also have to have the worst disgraceful scum to ever desecrate a lineup. Keep your heads screwed on for christ's sake, it's Gameweek Two.
 
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Irwin99 said:
As another poster suggested, i think it's a more of a question of how are we going to eventually evolve into a premier league winning side rather than just a top 4 team with them as a base and it's a fair question I think. I've said a fair few times that on paper i see a good/very good, capable team here that can get top 4 but i'm not really sure what the plan is to go to the next level without spending an absolute feck ton more money.

Onana
AWB Varane Martinez Shaw
Bruno Casemiro Mount
Antony Hojlund Rashford​

Hopefully Hojlund will hit the ground running and be a star but, stupid formation aside, there are still a fair few question marks there about consistency and even the quality of the overall side to be a league winning team eventually.
Click to expand...
Why are people still picking Antony in their teams? Have you not had enough torture?
 
noodlehair said:
There's nothing wrong with playing to your strengths and again I just don't agree with that statement. Playing to Casemiro's strengths won Real 5 champions leagues. So your statement is nonsense.

Also, more to the point. We aren't playing to Casemiro, Rashford or Fernandes's strengths at all. We're doing the complete opposite. Casemiro isn't a one man midfield, Fernandes can't be effective in a team with 1 midfielder and Rashford is not effective as a no9. Rashford is there due to other players being injured but the other two it's self inflicted by our unworkable system.

If they are our best players then we probably shouldn't be setting up to render them ineffective.
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I mostly mean Bruno and Rashford. Real Madrid did play to Casemiro's strengths by surrounding him with two highly technical midfielders who are brilliant at passing the ball. We're doing the exact opposite of that so I agree that we are not playing to Casemiro's strengths.

As for Bruno and Rashford, I try to separate the practical reality of the current setup from the idea behind it. Because yeah, the practical reality is that our current setup is simply mind-boggling and makes no sense. The idea behind it sort of does though: press high up the pitch with mobile players, get the ball back quickly, be direct at all times, get the ball to the forwards as quickly as possible. This is the sort of football Rashford and Bruno are supposed to be good at. My problem is that even if we craft a working version of this where we actually have a midfielder there instead of Mount and a proper number nine so that Rashford can play in his best position - it's still a pretty limited way of playing football. Our ball retention will still mostly suck. We'll still cede possession and midfield control to most of the good teams we play. And it's hard to imagine those things being any other way with these two being key players.

I guess my point is that these two shoehorn us into playing a certain type of football. If we try to play some other kind, they'll be ineffective. If we play their kind of football, the team as a whole has a hard limit. If we play insane football by adding an underwhelming number 10 into the mix, we'll be simply shite all around. That's what we're seeing now.
 
Siorac said:
I mostly mean Bruno and Rashford. Real Madrid did play to Casemiro's strengths by surrounding him with two highly technical midfielders who are brilliant at passing the ball. We're doing the exact opposite of that so I agree that we are not playing to Casemiro's strengths.

As for Bruno and Rashford, I try to separate the practical reality of the current setup from the idea behind it. Because yeah, the practical reality is that our current setup is simply mind-boggling and makes no sense. The idea behind it sort of does though: press high up the pitch with mobile players, get the ball back quickly, be direct at all times, get the ball to the forwards as quickly as possible. This is the sort of football Rashford and Bruno are supposed to be good at. My problem is that even if we craft a working version of this where we actually have a midfielder there instead of Mount and a proper number nine so that Rashford can play in his best position - it's still a pretty limited way of playing football. Our ball retention will still mostly suck. We'll still cede possession and midfield control to most of the good teams we play. And it's hard to imagine those things being any other way with these two being key players.

I guess my point is that these two shoehorn us into playing a certain type of football. If we try to play some other kind, they'll be ineffective. If we play their kind of football, the team as a whole has a hard limit. If we play insane football by adding an underwhelming number 10 into the mix, we'll be simply shite all around. That's what we're seeing now.
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No, what we're seeing now is a team that finished in the top four in 3 of the past 4 seasons - that is, really a quite good football team - performing well below its normal levels. To make out that this is a logical, inescapable consequence of inherent limitations in our best players is ridiculous.
 
RedStarUnited said:
Bruno Fernandes - Cant play the posesion game, physically weak and full of mistakes BUT he is the most creative player in the squad.

Casemiro - Looks leggy, isnt a tempo setter/good passer BUT he our best and only DM.

Rashford - Lazy at pressing, cant hold up play, his general game is average at best BUT he is our most dangerous weapon in attack with Bruno.

Shaw - No intensity in attack or defence, 18 assists in the PL in 9 years BUT again theres no one better than him in the squad.

All of the above players know they are playing every week. Because we have zero alternatives so we just tend to accept and live with their deficiencies. Having 2 players ill suited to a possession game in the midfield is a huge problem.
Click to expand...
RedStarUnited said:
Bruno Fernandes - Cant play the posesion game, physically weak and full of mistakes BUT he is the most creative player in the squad.

Casemiro - Looks leggy, isnt a tempo setter/good passer BUT he our best and only DM.

Rashford - Lazy at pressing, cant hold up play, his general game is average at best BUT he is our most dangerous weapon in attack with Bruno.

Shaw - No intensity in attack or defence, 18 assists in the PL in 9 years BUT again theres no one better than him in the squad.

All of the above players know they are playing every week. Because we have zero alternatives so we just tend to accept and live with their deficiencies. Having 2 players ill suited to a possession game in the midfield is a huge problem.
Click to expand...

Well here is a coincidence. I specifically referenced these players in the ETH thread but with a different narrative…

agree that they are all flawed.

but surely the bigger question is, as these are our better players… why aren’t we playing to their strengths?

We know rashford is great facing goal from wide positions, but terrible facing away from goal in central positions… so why play him as a 9??

we know Shaw is a key ball carrier in wide areas, so why play him inside?

we know Bruno is creative but has poor ball retention… so why play him as an 8 and not a 10?

we know Casemiro is a great progressive passer, and great at tight pressure but needs legs alongside him. So why leave him so exposed?

we had the most obvious midfield need in world football this summer….

“Okay… I’ve got a great 10.. he’s gonna be my captain, but needs a proper midfield behind him… and I’ve got a great experienced 6, but he’s not the most mobile…. So what is missing?…. I know!! Mason Mount!”

said no sane person ever!

we managed to pay basically double the amount than what city paid for the player we actually needed from Chelsea (Kovacic)

peak Utd!
RedStarUnited said:
Bruno Fernandes - Cant play the posesion game, physically weak and full of mistakes BUT he is the most creative player in the squad.

Casemiro - Looks leggy, isnt a tempo setter/good passer BUT he our best and only DM.

Rashford - Lazy at pressing, cant hold up play, his general game is average at best BUT he is our most dangerous weapon in attack with Bruno.

Shaw - No intensity in attack or defence, 18 assists in the PL in 9 years BUT again theres no one better than him in the squad.

All of the above players know they are playing every week. Because we have zero alternatives so we just tend to accept and live with their deficiencies. Having 2 players ill suited to a possession game in the midfield is a huge problem.
Click to expand...

Well here is a coincidence. I specifically referenced these players in the ETH thread but with a different narrative…

agree that they are all flawed.

but surely the bigger question is, as these are our better players… why aren’t we playing to their strengths?

We know rashford is great facing goal from wide positions, but terrible facing away from goal in central positions… so why play him as a 9??

we know Shaw is a key ball carrier in wide areas, so why play him inside?

we know Bruno is creative but has poor ball retention… so why play him as an 8 and not a 10?

we know Casemiro is a great progressive passer, and great at tight pressure but needs legs alongside him. So why leave him so exposed?

we had the most obvious midfield need in world football this summer….

“Okay… I’ve got a great 10.. he’s gonna be my captain, but needs a proper midfield behind him… and I’ve got a great experienced 6, but he’s not the most mobile…. So what is missing?…. I know!! Mason Mount!”

said no sane person ever!

we managed to pay basically double the amount than what city paid for the player we actually needed from Chelsea (Kovacic)

peak Utd!
 
The cult of Ten Hag. It's our best players that are the problem, not the one setting them up to fail.
 
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