Options for the NHS

Red in STL

Turnover not takeover
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Discussion in how the NHS should or can work, what's realistic and what's not.

IMO the NHS will never be fit for purpose without radical and.or controversial changes, the current model is unstainable

I used the NHS when I still lived in the UK and my parents and siblings still do, I currently live in the US wh ich has a basket case model that UK folks certainly wouldn't like.
 
I don’t think the problem with the NHS is strictly the healthcare model.

With a functioning economy, adequate funding and the will to take a detailed look at imigration, the free at the point of care healthcare we have enjoyed can return to the incredible levels of satisfaction we saw 15-20 years ago.

The true issue at play is social care. We have a rapidly aging population, living longer than ever with mounting health ailment's that are having to be absorbed into the NHS because the care system can’t cope, this is then adding an extra boot onto the neck of the NHS which is already under strain from austerity, covid and labour issues.

We need a means of funding elderly care that’s sustainable and isn’t just shunting people into A&E or overcrowded wards, or booking up every gp appointment because they want a chat about one of their 16 minor health conditions.

isn’t an easy answer to this, I’d be happy personally if there was a new tax created that acted almost as a pension so that people aren’t having to sell their homes to live in a shithole care home but that’s just me. Money has to come from somewhere.
 
Spend more to bring spending in line with most western/northern european countries. this divide is pretty stark in per-capita terms, and is slightly visible in percent GDP terms too.
data is from 2019: pre-pandemic.

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The amount of patients who turn up to the hospital for something they really don't need to be there for, then the first thing they say when you start taking a history is "I tried to see my GP about this but I couldn't get an appointment" is obscene.

Also on another note, having practiced medicine in two different countries, the amount of people in the UK who come to hospital for absolutely minor things is really, really ridiculous. I've never seen as many people who think a headache warrants them coming to hospital, as I have since I have been here. Headaches that 100% of the time have been migraines or tension headaches. And that's just one example of the amount of that that we see. I'm not sure if it's a cultural thing or what, because healthcare was free where I came from as well and the people turning up at hospital for nothing was nowhere near as bad as it is in England.
 
I don’t think the problem with the NHS is strictly the healthcare model.

With a functioning economy, adequate funding and the will to take a detailed look at imigration, the free at the point of care healthcare we have enjoyed can return to the incredible levels of satisfaction we saw 15-20 years ago.

The true issue at play is social care. We have a rapidly aging population, living longer than ever with mounting health ailment's that are having to be absorbed into the NHS because the care system can’t cope, this is then adding an extra boot onto the neck of the NHS which is already under strain from austerity, covid and labour issues.


We need a means of funding elderly care that’s sustainable and isn’t just shunting people into A&E or overcrowded wards, or booking up every gp appointment because they want a chat about one of their 16 minor health conditions.

isn’t an easy answer to this, I’d be happy personally if there was a new tax created that acted almost as a pension so that people aren’t having to sell their homes to live in a shithole care home but that’s just me. Money has to come from somewhere.

"Social admissions" are a very frequent issue. The family can't cope with the relative so they bring them to hospital for the hospital to sort it out. They're having falls in the care home and the care home can't cope and they need to find them a new care home. These people are admitted, without having an actual acute medical issue, because the hospital is seen as the place to house them and sort out their social issues. So they occupy a bed, and these social things invariably take quite some time to sort out, while they are there. And of course because they're in hospital they'll end up catching a hospital acquired infection or something at some point, so they get sick while waiting as well.
 
Funding is the primary problem and then that compounds through the system. You can't see a GP so you go to an already stretched and underfunded Emergency Room at a hospital. Plus the Tories causing so much poverty has made people sicker (and shorter).
 
Health care is non negotiable. Just work out how much it will cost for good heathcare then get the money through taxes. It's that simple.
 
I spoke with a Clinician recently whose projection was that all elective surgery would end up in the independent sector. That it was simply be more realistic to have the NHS trusts focus on ED, medically admitted patients, cancer care etc etc and give up trying to schedule the bulk of elective.

Can’t say I disagree with him personally. the biggest problem trusts have at the moment on a practical operational level is medical patients being bed-cloggers.
 
In my view, it is much more a function of prevention.
We have to try to encourage people to take responsibility for their own health by looking after themselves in a much more healthy way.

Far too many are overweight.
Far too many have an unhealthy diet.
Far too many don't bother to do even the minimum of exercise such as walking instead of using the car.

Because once people become overweight and unhealthy, they end up needing a great deal of treatment by the NHS.
 
In my view, it is much more a function of prevention.
We have to try to encourage people to take responsibility for their own health by looking after themselves in a much more healthy way.

Far too many are overweight.
Far too many have an unhealthy diet.
Far too many don't bother to do even the minimum of exercise such as walking instead of using the car.

Because once people become overweight and unhealthy, they end up needing a great deal of treatment by the NHS.

Agree with this and I would go further, sugary foods should be taxed like tobacco and alcohol, same for salty and fatty foods. It is ridiculous that I can buy 5 deep fried sugar coated donuts (though I love them) for £1.15 or two litres of coke for 2 quid.

Ring fence the money made and pump it into the NHS, pay doctors, nurses etc a decent wage, make the profession one people do not want to leave and have prevention as a primary policy rather than spending billions on reactive healthcare.
 
Agree with this and I would go further, sugary foods should be taxed like tobacco and alcohol, same for salty and fatty foods. It is ridiculous that I can buy 5 deep fried sugar coated donuts (though I love them) for £1.15 or two litres of coke for 2 quid.

Ring fence the money made and pump it into the NHS, pay doctors, nurses etc a decent wage, make the profession one people do not want to leave and have prevention as a primary policy rather than spending billions on reactive healthcare.

Completely agree.
 
In my view, it is much more a function of prevention.
We have to try to encourage people to take responsibility for their own health by looking after themselves in a much more healthy way.

Far too many are overweight.
Far too many have an unhealthy diet.
Far too many don't bother to do even the minimum of exercise such as walking instead of using the car.

Because once people become overweight and unhealthy, they end up needing a great deal of treatment by the NHS.
Agree with this and I would go further, sugary foods should be taxed like tobacco and alcohol, same for salty and fatty foods. It is ridiculous that I can buy 5 deep fried sugar coated donuts (though I love them) for £1.15 or two litres of coke for 2 quid.

Ring fence the money made and pump it into the NHS, pay doctors, nurses etc a decent wage, make the profession one people do not want to leave and have prevention as a primary policy rather than spending billions on reactive healthcare.
This really is the long term answer..

My big hope for the NHS is that the current generation of teenagers is much healthier in general. Partly because of social media, they’re more into taking care of themselves and looking after their health than drinking and smoking. Ok, there’s a decent bunch of image issues that come along with that, but let’s take the positives for now.
 
There are 2 things in our homes that are slowly killing us.
Sugar and comfortable chairs.

You can work out for yourselves the reasons why but they are pretty obvious.
 
This really is the long term answer..

My big hope for the NHS is that the current generation of teenagers is much healthier in general. Partly because of social media, they’re more into taking care of themselves and looking after their health than drinking and smoking. Ok, there’s a decent bunch of image issues that come along with that, but let’s take the positives for now.

Yes you are quite right. They are a longer term benefit to the NHS.
But until we start to get to grips with it, the NHS is going to continue to struggle to cope with such an unhealthy population.
 
There are 2 things in our homes that are slowly killing us.
Sugar and comfortable chairs.

You can work out for yourselves the reasons why but they are pretty obvious.
I think we could extend sugar to ultra-processed food. I know you’re into this kind of stuff, so I’d recommend the book Ultra Processed People. I don’t agree with all of his ideas but it’s worth a read (or listen)
 
I think we could extend sugar to ultra-processed food. I know you’re into this kind of stuff, so I’d recommend the book Ultra Processed People. I don’t agree with all of his ideas but it’s worth a read (or listen)

Exactly.
I am in my 70s and I exercise almost every day.
Today I have been for a brisk walk (knee replacement prevent me from running any more) and I am now doing a weights session.
Once you start to live a healthy life and understand about your body, it becomes a way of life.

Ok. I fully accept that most people have an extremely busy life.
But when you make a start to eat well and exercise, you are making an investment in your future wellbeing.
Edit.
And at the same time you are taking responsibility for your health instead of expecting the NHS to do that for you.
 
The amount of patients who turn up to the hospital for something they really don't need to be there for, then the first thing they say when you start taking a history is "I tried to see my GP about this but I couldn't get an appointment" is obscene.

Also on another note, having practiced medicine in two different countries, the amount of people in the UK who come to hospital for absolutely minor things is really, really ridiculous. I've never seen as many people who think a headache warrants them coming to hospital, as I have since I have been here. Headaches that 100% of the time have been migraines or tension headaches. And that's just one example of the amount of that that we see. I'm not sure if it's a cultural thing or what, because healthcare was free where I came from as well and the people turning up at hospital for nothing was nowhere near as bad as it is in England.

Interesting. I know of a few people like that. I think it's a very small % of the population as a whole, as most people are the opposite and just ignore it, and would be appalled that people would go to hospital for a headache. So I don't think it's a direct cultural thing, as in - its not how most people in the culture behave. However I can certainly imagine that it may be a subculture for a small % of the population. Some possible reasons off the top of my head:

- Overly polite culture that doesn't criticise them for doing so (to their face), meaning the poor behaviour isn't corrected.
- Some people are just entitled/narcissistic and think the world revolves around them. I wouldn't be surprised if Britain has a slightly higher % of narcissists. Also can include lonely attention seekers here too. One of the symptoms of our capitalist, consumerist society.
- Lack of education about health, and the health service, + health paranoia promoted by garbage TV and newspapers.
- Difficulty getting GP appointment. Often seen as easier to attend hospital (and possibly linked to entitlement/narcissism- why should I not be able to walk in and get help when I want it. Especially given that everything else in our society is available whenever you want). Also possibly sick note culture plays a part too.
- Following on from the previous point, most people now don't have any kind of relationship with their GP surgery, nor their local pharmacist. So again, I think some people are unaware really of their options.
- Because its free also has to be mentioned as a reason. However it's by no means the only reason, and there are better, more nuanced solutions than simply charging for appointments.
 
Exactly.
I am in my 70s and I exercise almost every day.
Today I have been for a brisk walk (knee replacement prevent me from running any more) and I am now doing a weights session.
Once you start to live a healthy life and understand about your body, it becomes a way of life.

Ok. I fully accept that most people have an extremely busy life.
But when you make a start to eat well and exercise, you are making an investment in your future wellbeing.
Edit.
And at the same time you are taking responsibility for your health instead of expecting the NHS to do that for you.
Good on you. I’ve no idea why people wouldn’t - a stint or two in hospital should be enough to convince you not to want to return! Stresses and pressures of life I guess
 
Interesting. I know of a few people like that. I think it's a very small % of the population as a whole, as most people are the opposite and just ignore it, and would be appalled that people would go to hospital for a headache. So I don't think it's a direct cultural thing, as in - its not how most people in the culture behave. However I can certainly imagine that it may be a subculture for a small % of the population. Some possible reasons off the top of my head:

- Overly polite culture that doesn't criticise them for doing so (to their face), meaning the poor behaviour isn't corrected.
- Some people are just entitled/narcissistic and think the world revolves around them. I wouldn't be surprised if Britain has a slightly higher % of narcissists. Also can include lonely attention seekers here too. One of the symptoms of our capitalist, consumerist society.
- Lack of education about health, and the health service, + health paranoia promoted by garbage TV and newspapers.
- Difficulty getting GP appointment. Often seen as easier to attend hospital (and possibly linked to entitlement/narcissism- why should I not be able to walk in and get help when I want it. Especially given that everything else in our society is available whenever you want). Also possibly sick note culture plays a part too.
- Following on from the previous point, most people now don't have any kind of relationship with their GP surgery, nor their local pharmacist. So again, I think some people are unaware really of their options.
- Because its free also has to be mentioned as a reason. However it's by no means the only reason, and there are better, more nuanced solutions than simply charging for appointments.
I know someone like that. It’s such a weird mindset. You go into A&E with something trivial you’re going right to the back of the queue. Like spending 12 hours In A&E isn’t a hellish enough thought to put people off doing it
 
I work for the NHS in the capital department, and the amount of time and money wasted is insane, as is the amount of unrealised rental income.

I was involved in a months long project, that should never have got off the ground, to see if we could use a physiotherapy pool for children's swimming lessons on weekends. The answer was obviously always going to be "no" because of a lack of proper access and changing facilities, and the fact that the pool was only suitable for at most about four people, but we still had months of meetings about it. These sorts of things come up all the time.

Loads of money is spent purchasing three units in a business park, with one being converted into a specialised training hub for a health board, except the execs quite liked that it wasn't so remote and decided it was now their new headquarters, meaning that the health board still doesn't have a centralised training hub and now has a site going to waste because it's too costly to renovate it into anything but the office building it is.

Another massive chunk of cash spent on a site that needs flattening and completely rebuilding to actually be of use, except after buying it there's no money left to do anything with it, so it's just sat there.

There's a hospital built in 2012ish that is technically still not finished. The "maternity ward" is just sat there without proper light fittings, no ceiling tiles, plug sockets hanging off the walls, and rooms that haven't even had the plastering finished, and as a result it's just used as a dumping ground for old equipment as it's not remotely fit for purpose.

Loads of sites (or areas of sites) being occupied by third-parties paying little to no rent, some who have never actually drawn up any formal agreement for their occupation (the most egregious being a privately owned GP practice literally knocking into a community nursing hub and taking over all but one room of a building they don't even own).

I'm three years into my role (which is basically document control) and the guy I replaced retired, leaving an absolute shitshow. Nothing is organised and I'm still unraveling the mess he's left. God knows how much money has been wasted duplicating work simply because it's been incredibly poorly organised and people can't find the documents they need.

We're paying tens of thousands a year for a document management portal that most staff can't even use because the search function is broken, and the network drives we use to store files are a jungle. I'm constantly being asked for documents that, as far as I'm aware, we don't have, only for someone tagged in the email to go "oh, I've got this saved on my desktop."

I suggested simply moving it all to SharePoint so we don't have to pay for someone else to host it, and so it's in line with basically every other department's structure, and it seems that it simply hadn't occurred to anyone before.
 
I work for the NHS in the capital department, and the amount of time and money wasted is insane, as is the amount of unrealised rental income.

I was involved in a months long project, that should never have got off the ground, to see if we could use a physiotherapy pool for children's swimming lessons on weekends. The answer was obviously always going to be "no" because of a lack of proper access and changing facilities, and the fact that the pool was only suitable for at most about four people, but we still had months of meetings about it. These sorts of things come up all the time.

Loads of money is spent purchasing three units in a business park, with one being converted into a specialised training hub for a health board, except the execs quite liked that it wasn't so remote and decided it was now their new headquarters, meaning that the health board still doesn't have a centralised training hub and now has a site going to waste because it's too costly to renovate it into anything but the office building it is.

Another massive chunk of cash spent on a site that needs flattening and completely rebuilding to actually be of use, except after buying it there's no money left to do anything with it, so it's just sat there.

There's a hospital built in 2012ish that is technically still not finished. The "maternity ward" is just sat there without proper light fittings, no ceiling tiles, plug sockets hanging off the walls, and rooms that haven't even had the plastering finished, and as a result it's just used as a dumping ground for old equipment as it's not remotely fit for purpose.

Loads of sites (or areas of sites) being occupied by third-parties paying little to no rent, some who have never actually drawn up any formal agreement for their occupation (the most egregious being a privately owned GP practice literally knocking into a community nursing hub and taking over all but one room of a building they don't even own).

I'm three years into my role (which is basically document control) and the guy I replaced retired, leaving an absolute shitshow. Nothing is organised and I'm still unraveling the mess he's left. God knows how much money has been wasted duplicating work simply because it's been incredibly poorly organised and people can't find the documents they need.

We're paying tens of thousands a year for a document management portal that most staff can't even use because the search function is broken, and the network drives we use to store files are a jungle. I'm constantly being asked for documents that, as far as I'm aware, we don't have, only for someone tagged in the email to go "oh, I've got this saved on my desktop."

I suggested simply moving it all to SharePoint so we don't have to pay for someone else to host it, and so it's in line with basically every other department's structure, and it seems that it simply hadn't occurred to anyone before.
Become a whistleblower
 
Become a whistleblower

For what? Ineffective and incompetent management?

That's no secret to anyone. There's no great conspiracy of people lining their own pockets, it's largely just an issue of poorly thought out schemes.

Even a lot of that gets solved with more funding.
 
if they revert to the spending model prior to the last Tory government taking over things should improve drastically

we went from averaging 5.5% increases per year under Labour to under 3% post-2010

however I am not sure how possible this is
 
Exactly.
I am in my 70s and I exercise almost every day.
Today I have been for a brisk walk (knee replacement prevent me from running any more) and I am now doing a weights session.
Once you start to live a healthy life and understand about your body, it becomes a way of life.

Ok. I fully accept that most people have an extremely busy life.
But when you make a start to eat well and exercise, you are making an investment in your future wellbeing.
Edit.
And at the same time you are taking responsibility for your health instead of expecting the NHS to do that for you.
Mainly because exercising for the sake of exercising is mind numbingly boring. When I work 40+ hours a week, I want to spend my free time doing stuff I actually like.
 
For what? Ineffective and incompetent management?
This exactly - I know a number of journalists who'd be interested in real life examples of wasteful incopmpetent management
 
This exactly - I know a number of journalists who'd be interested in real life examples of wasteful incopmpetent management

Generally speaking, these are people doing their best with the time and the resources they've got. I've no interest in throwing individuals under the bus.

The execs mentioned are the only ones taking the piss, and as far as I can tell there's a revolving door of them anyway.

Even the examples I've given there, most are no longer problems with more funding. Whether that's to actually finish incomplete projects, or to hire more people to help manage things.

We discovered last year that one man was managing the occupancy and suitability of basically an entire health board, and that only came to light when he ended up off work for an extended period after and accident. There simply isn't money to hire an assistant or junior for him to share the workload, and no one else at the same level has time to take it on.

I'm basically a single point of failure. If I'm off for any reason (as I am today), people are basically left scrambling around in the dark for the documents they're after. I'll have about 40 emails on Monday off people who couldn't find what they were after on the document portal or network drives.

There's a vicious cycle caused by having to justify the budget each year. It's already not really enough to do everything that needs doing, but a lot of the things that need doing require a lot of time to properly cost, and until they're properly costed, money from the budget can't be allocated to them. As a result, money gets allocated at the last minute to things that don't really need doing, or to the first part of a project (with no guarantees of funding for the subsequent parts) simply because they can be costed before the deadline.

It's often a case of constantly having to kick the can down the road in hope that next time around you have time and money to allocate more of the money to where it actually needs to go.
 
Mainly because exercising for the sake of exercising is mind numbingly boring. When I work 40+ hours a week, I want to spend my free time doing stuff I actually like.

That is your decision. But exercise need not be mind numbingly boring. I am sure there is something you would enjoy because there are so many options.
 
That is your decision. But exercise need not be mind numbingly boring. I am sure there is something you would enjoy because there are so many options.
I said exercise for the sake of exercise. I play football and recently gave bouldering a bash which was great fun. I also do physical work so it's not really an issue for me. Running and the gym ain't for everyone and a lot of people don't want to try group activities because of tiredness and social anxiety, perhaps the NHS could start (if they don't already) promoting local sports clubs and activities?
 
The medical model is very much focused on treating the symptoms, rather than addressing the causes. Prevention is better than the cure, but not enough time nor money is spent on prevention. The NHS, whether it's hospitals or GP surgeries, has outdated computer infrastructure. They have some good systems, like GP Connect, but the various arms of the health service don't always communicate effectively. I work in a care home and I will sometimes have to inform a resident's GP that the hospital or the mental health team has prescribed them a new medication, because it depends on the prescriber and how on-the-ball they are. Having good computers, that have the latest version of Windows, and having a joined-up approach to healthcare, would solve so many issues.

As has been mentioned already, the drain on the NHS from social care is the elephant in the room. The elderly use up so many resources - time, money, expertise - and aren't contributing to the nation's coffers any more. Mental health services, stretched beyond belief, end up affecting the hospitals, because people in crisis end up in A&E. They also affect the police, who have to spend so much time and resources on managing situations with people in crisis.

I used to work in mental health, and service users used to have their own social worker. However, the short-sightedness of central government decided that it would be best to do away with nominated social workers and just have a duty social worker system instead.

So, if one of my service users was in crisis, I'd ring the mental health team and be put through to someone who didn't know my service user. I'd have to explain the person's history, the situation they were in right now, and have to wait for a call back, as the duty social worker had to either research this individual some more or go and ask others for advice.

So much time was wasted explaining things to a new person every time, something which was replicated millions of times up and down the country. So inefficient and so ineffective. And that's if you were lucky and someone answered the phone in the first place. Ring the mental health crisis team at 3am on a Saturday morning? Good luck!

So much of a good mental health service is about prevention. We don't want people in crisis to begin with. I'll give you a genuine example and how much more it costs to deal with a problem that is easily preventable.

'Joe' was a guy with Schizophrenia that I supported. He was a very unpleasant individual, incredibly selfish, believing other people always had alterior motives. As such, he was miserable and friendless. He had 3 blocks of 5 hour 1-2-1 time, paid for by the local authority, which enabled him to access the community with support. In simple terms, he and a support worker like me, would visit museums, galleries, cinemas, have lunch out, enjoy a coffee, etc. It was so that he didn't just sit in his room 24/7 (which is what he did for the rest of the time).

A great new initiative began at the local mental health centre, called 'the men's group'. Three times a week, people like Joe met up at 10am and did arts and crafts, had discussions about local or national issues, and enjoyed coffee and a chat with their peers for a couple of hours. Joe really enjoyed these sessions and now had a reason to get up in the morning 6 days a week. He completely changed. He went from a horrible, selfish, nasty individual into a friendly, upbeat, considerate person. It was remarkable. I'd never seen anything like it. 'New' Joe lasted 9 months.

Enter the coalition government and austerity. First thing to go was the 1-2-1 funding. This didn't have a great impact at first because the new friendly, confident Joe had begun accessing the community himself. He wasn't a danger to society or anything, but before the 1-2-1 support was put in place, he'd literally go to the nearest shop, spend his personal allowance, then come back and sit in his room. Having learned good habits, he now stayed out longer, going to coffee shops, visiting places, being a part of his community.

However, the body blow was when the men's group funding was cut. At first it was reduced to twice a week. Then to once a week. Then to once a month. Joe had gone from having a fulfilling life, accessing the community 6 days a week, chatting to people, and literally changing as a person, to now having no 1-2-1 support and no men's group. He had no reason to get up in the morning. His mental health didn't just decline, it fell off a cliff. He made allegations left, right and centre. His paranoia went through the roof. Imagine being a support worker sitting in the living room, reading a book, minding your own business, and someone storming down the stairs every 5 minutes, screaming at you, claiming that they've heard you on the phone (when it hadn't rang), threatening to report you to the police, solicitors, the newspapers, etc. And you work 24 hour shifts. This was the new normal.

Joe, having developed schizophrenia after contracting meningitis as a child, and now in his late 50s, had tried every medication going. The medical model, as I mentioned at the start, focuses on the symptoms. The psychiatrists wanted him to try a new antipsychotic called Clozapine (or Clozaril). This medication is banned in a lot of countries, can severely shorten life expectancy, and can cause serious side effects. One of which is greatly reducing blood pressure. As such, he had to stay in a secure unit, so that he could be monitored around the clock.

He was in there for 28 days. It was a train and two buses away from his home, so us staff could only visit a few times a week. I would attend MDT (multidisciplinary team) meetings about Joe, where psychiatrists, advanced nurse practitioners, social workers and the like, along with little old me, would discuss what to do. He was at the last chance saloon, taking a very dangerous medication, and I tried so hard to get everyone to understand how he'd ended up here. His mental health hadn't deteriorated because of a chemical imbalance in his brain; it was because he didn't have anything to do and nobody to do it with. So fixated were the others around the table on this new medication, that my pleas fell on deaf ears. They were trying to provide a chemical solution to a social problem. It was maddening.

Money was the root cause of the problem. A short term saving of a few quid on a couple of support staff 6 hours a week, that gave around 20 people like Joe something to look forward to, had now cost untold thousands and put his long-term health in jeopardy. And there will be tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people like him up and down the country, where a small investment would make such a huge difference to their quality of life. Instead, they take that pittance away and society pays a much bigger cost in the long run. This is the part that needs reform. There's no need for private enterprise. Just spend more on giving people a reason to live and you won't need to spend so much on medications or doctors.
 
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in the area i work in (ophthalmology), there has been an outsourcing boom with private providers. Now whilst thats led to massively reduced waiting lists for routine treatments, there is now a quite clear issue with less than ideal outcomes - although there's very little research into this, and the drop in income for NHS eye depts (from not doing the easy stuff) has made it more difficult for them to do the complex stuff (not enough staff etc) that the private providers wont touch.

ive always thought that the hundreds of millions thats been spent on outsourcing couldve been spent on a public owned arms length non-profit entity.
 
I said exercise for the sake of exercise. I play football and recently gave bouldering a bash which was great fun. I also do physical work so it's not really an issue for me. Running and the gym ain't for everyone and a lot of people don't want to try group activities because of tiredness and social anxiety, perhaps the NHS could start (if they don't already) promoting local sports clubs and activities?

Good to hear and apology for misunderstanding you.
 
Having worked for 35 years as a clinician, commissioner and educator in the NHS, my perspective is that the NHS is hamstrung by the BMA (doctors' union). Nye Bevan was asked how he got the BMA on board when the NHS was being established - he said "I stuffed their mouths with gold".

The BMA has over many years negotiated aggressively for its GP members, generally in their favour - such as not having to do out-of-hours work and extra payments for this that and the other. Remember, GPs are not NHS employees, they are independent contractors.

No offence to doctors on this thread, but as a commissioner involved in GP contracts the out of hours fiasco was the most frustrating thing to deal with. We had to directly employ GPs to cover gaps in the service (cost a fortune), and now most people can't even get a GP visit out of hours. The GPs where I was working were delighted to give up the work, as they all had other private work that brought in more money anyway.

The way the UK service works doesn't work for the general public. It works where I live now, in Italy. I can see a doctor day or night with no appointment, and the hospital care (though rather basic) has good clinical outcomes. I can go to see a specialist whenever I want at a private clinic and only pay around £60 for the privilege. I own all my test results, scans etc. I will be given a report typed by the doctor before I leave the consulting room.

There are other ways to do things. The UK model doesn't work any more. Public health investment is the key to reducing demand, but upstream measures take time to work and all the noise and grief is around the immediate - not being able to get an ambulance, not being able to get a hospital appointment, not being able to see your GP. The other major thing is investment in social care to keep vulnerable people at home, wherever possible. Old people in particular need to be kept out of hospital wherever possible. Hospital stays are often disastrous for the elderly. who need the familiar surroundings of home and their usual routines to keep themselves ticking over.

The general public need to do their bit too, as others have said, and it's not all about healthy lifestyles. It's also about accepting that some things simply don't need a consultation with a doctor.
 
Having worked for 35 years as a clinician, commissioner and educator in the NHS, my perspective is that the NHS is hamstrung by the BMA (doctors' union). Nye Bevan was asked how he got the BMA on board when the NHS was being established - he said "I stuffed their mouths with gold".

The BMA has over many years negotiated aggressively for its GP members, generally in their favour - such as not having to do out-of-hours work and extra payments for this that and the other. Remember, GPs are not NHS employees, they are independent contractors.

No offence to doctors on this thread, but as a commissioner involved in GP contracts the out of hours fiasco was the most frustrating thing to deal with. We had to directly employ GPs to cover gaps in the service (cost a fortune), and now most people can't even get a GP visit out of hours. The GPs where I was working were delighted to give up the work, as they all had other private work that brought in more money anyway.

The way the UK service works doesn't work for the general public. It works where I live now, in Italy. I can see a doctor day or night with no appointment, and the hospital care (though rather basic) has good clinical outcomes. I can go to see a specialist whenever I want at a private clinic and only pay around £60 for the privilege. I own all my test results, scans etc. I will be given a report typed by the doctor before I leave the consulting room.

There are other ways to do things. The UK model doesn't work any more. Public health investment is the key to reducing demand, but upstream measures take time to work and all the noise and grief is around the immediate - not being able to get an ambulance, not being able to get a hospital appointment, not being able to see your GP. The other major thing is investment in social care to keep vulnerable people at home, wherever possible. Old people in particular need to be kept out of hospital wherever possible. Hospital stays are often disastrous for the elderly. who need the familiar surroundings of home and their usual routines to keep themselves ticking over.

The general public need to do their bit too, as others have said, and it's not all about healthy lifestyles. It's also about accepting that some things simply don't need a consultation with a doctor.

Doctors in the UK have a great deal, it's why they're famously so happy and the NHS has a a great retention rate.
 
Mainly because exercising for the sake of exercising is mind numbingly boring. When I work 40+ hours a week, I want to spend my free time doing stuff I actually like.
It's for the sake of your health, not for the sake of exercising.
 
Does that make it any more fun?
No but people that can't grasp the nature of its purpose are pretty short sighted. I agree though that finding an activity you like is very important. Doing both is best case scenario.
 
Did you read his comment?

Yes I did read her comment.

If the BMA was so successful in aggressively pushing the interests of its members, you have to wonder why discontent is so high at every level of the system, in both primary and secondary care.

Why retention is becoming so poor and why many physicians are looking jealously at the salaries and working conditions of their peers across the anglosphere, much of western and northern Europe and even increasingly back home to countries that many would consider lesser economies than the UK's?