Ole has no system that I can see ..... or do I just need better glasses?

[Vargo Hoat]

This post after watching the team out last night

How did yesterdays game change anything about my post? I argued that Solskjær is massively underperforming as manager of Uniteds squad, and from what I can see, that point stands after last night. Use all the emojis you like. It still does not change the fact that Solskjær failed to motivate his players yet again yesterday.

The general consensus among other teams fans is that as long as Solskjær is manager they have nothing to fear. The guy screams mediocrity and his tactics, or rather lack thereof holds a relatively good squad back.

 

[sunama]

I think Ole does have a plan.
He wants to use the individual ability of our star players to create/score.
When our lesser players play, notice how clueless they are.
A great manager can make lesser players perform well - as we saw against CP, managed by Hodgson. CP don't have the kind of talented players that we have, but by using the correct system, Hodgson was able to get them to outscore us.

 

[Foxbatt]

I think Ole does have a plan.
He wants to use the individual ability of our star players to create/score.
When our lesser players play, notice how clueless they are.
A great manager can make lesser players perform well - as we saw against CP, managed by Hodgson. CP don't have the kind of talented players that we have, but by using the correct system, Hodgson was able to get them to outscore us.

I agree with you. And the problem is that most other teams also have extremely good players. So extremely good players with better coaching and better tactics can beat a team with a few better players. I was surprised how tactically good Palace was. They do not seem to lose their shape and we helped them by passing slowly among ourselves. As soon as DeGea passed the ball they were onto Pogba and McTominay in a flash. As soon as that stage goes they fall back in defence and in shape and let us pass across the pitch slowly outside their box. All according to their plan. We don't have any shape at all. A bunch of individuals trying to do their own thing.
People had a go at Odion yesterday but we were playing as if we had Martial as CF. If we play Odion then we have to play to his strengths. We are not able to change our style depending on the circumstances.
When we had Cole and Yorke we played a different style. When Teddy and Ole comes on we change our style. That is good tactics and good coaching. Now it is a shambles.

 

[Flexdegea]

How did yesterdays game change anything about my post? I argued that Solskjær is massively underperforming as manager of Uniteds squad, and from what I can see, that point stands after last night. Use all the emojis you like. It still does not change the fact that Solskjær failed to motivate his players yet again yesterday.

The general consensus among other teams fans is that as long as Solskjær is manager they have nothing to fear. The guy screams mediocrity and his tactics, or rather lack thereof holds a relatively good squad back.

He failed to motivate the players?


They won 3 nil. Dont get me wrong they weren't great but job was done in the end. Was a free match to built some match time into the squad. Most them players ain't played much football this year.


Who cares what other clubs fans say.


They can laugh all they want but as it stands he has a better H2H against all the big teams you seem to be referring too here

 

[Foxbatt]

He failed to motivate the players?


They won 3 nil. Dont get me wrong they weren't great but job was done in the end. Was a free match to built some match time into the squad. Most them players ain't played much football this year.


Who cares what other clubs fans say.


They can laugh all they want but as it stands he has a better H2H against all the big teams you seem to be referring too here

It doesn't matter does it as at the end of the season they have the last laugh as their teams are above us. It is not point in beating City and Liverpool and then at the end of the season we finish below them.

 

[keithsingleton]

How did yesterdays game change anything about my post? I argued that Solskjær is massively underperforming as manager of Uniteds squad, and from what I can see, that point stands after last night. Use all the emojis you like. It still does not change the fact that Solskjær failed to motivate his players yet again yesterday.

The general consensus among other teams fans is that as long as Solskjær is manager they have nothing to fear. The guy screams mediocrity and his tactics, or rather lack thereof holds a relatively good squad back.

Good post and I agree with all you say. Sat in the stands isn't going to help motivate players either, espically when we're at home and he's sat watching his lap top/ iPad.

 

[Flexdegea]

It doesn't matter does it as at the end of the season they have the last laugh as their teams are above us. It is not point in beating City and Liverpool and then at the end of the season we finish below them.

True but currently based on the season just ending only really city and liverpol are in a position to laugh at us. They've been streets ahead of us for a good few years now. Their squads are currently better as well and have had settled managers in their roles for previous 5 years.



But your man I was replying too seems to think we should be challenging with the squad we got, he is deluded if he thinks that. I can't be any more straight forward than that.

We literally had to max out our first 11 to just about finish 3rd with a strong performance from after Christmas. Best part is we still have holes in the first 11 which at the moment dont seem to be getting filled.


So I cant see the reality of where your man thinks we should be at the moment, and other teams supposedly laughing at our manager because we are so brutal. Silly if you ask me.

 

[bazalini]

I've read this from quite a few posters here ... people say they cannot see any system and everything comes down to individual brilliance, basically there’s no tactics coached.

But I think there clearly is, the difficulty is that because of injuries to key players, Ole has had to adapt his ideas throughout the season, though I would suggest that this shows even more tactical nous from him.

At the beginning of the season Ole wanted to build around Pogba in the 4-2-3-1 formation that he used in Norway and obviously favours. The team would press high and play with a high defence stealing the ball back early and playing quick forward passes from between the lines onto runners like Martial, James, Lingard and Rashford. The key to this was the other midfielder (McT, Matic or Fred) dropping back in between the CBs allowing the FBs to push forward either into midfield to protect against a counter or into attack to become another option for the pass forward, so effectively 4-2-3-1 would switch to 3-2-5 in attack. Pogba was key to this as he was the creative force meant to be spraying the ball about the pitch, but Pogba got injured and there was no one else in the squad to fill that role.

So he had to adapt to working with a much more utilitarian midfield. Liverpool do this by using their full backs as the creative force, but AWB wasn’t bought for this and though Shaw is capable it’s not his strongest suit either. But Ole didn’t have a huge amount of choice as the need for creativity moved out of central midfield and onto the wings, more often than not the left side with Shaw and Rashford. It still involved midfielders dropping into defence, but this now it meant a holding midfielder (often Fred) dropping into cover either LB or RB depending on who was pushing forward. With Martial, Shaw and Rashford all out at different times as well this became increasingly difficult. We all know how that worked out. Though he certainly had some successes, Tottenham and City stand out, but so do Newcastle and Norwich.

Finally with the purchase of Bruno, Ole got what he’d been missing with Pogba out, a playmaker to operate between the lines. So once again he could switch the creativity back to midfield, push Rashford and James/Greenwood out wide with Martial running through the centre. The other midfielder could drop back to create a back 3 and the wingbacks could either tuck in to protect midfield or push up to support the attack. Yes Bruno played in a more advanced position than Ole had planned for Pogba, but the idea pretty much remained the same with the idea of 4-2-3-1 switching to 3-2-5 in attack again.

These ideas aren't completely original, Ole has borrowed a bit from Klopp and Pep (who obviously play quite differently anyway) as well as others. He’s been forced to adapt throughout the season and you could argue that his tactics didn’t really finally click until that fecking Brighton game when you hammered us after lockdown (it was that game that got me thinking and reading about this)

He has also made mistakes as he and his coaches are quite inexperienced at this level, though I don’t mean he can not succeed and clearly the players don't think that either as they seem totally bought into his ideas. So to say there is no system is wrong in my mind, there has been at least three clear systems throughout the season (that's not counting the odd time he's started with 3 at the back or 4-4-2, which is another post all by itself!) as he’s adapted to the players available. Now whether you think the tactics are good enough or not is another discussion enitirely!

Interesting analysis written by cleverer people than me here.

Ole having to adapt - https://thebusbybabe.sbnation.com/2...t-ole-gunnar-solskjaer-learned-from-liverpool

Bruno makes the difference - https://totalfootballanalysis.com/p...-manchester-united-sporting-tactical-analysis

Ole’s tactics finally click against Brighton https://thebusbybabe.sbnation.com/2...s-shades-of-guardiola-as-ole-ball-takes-shape

4-2-3-1 converting to 3-2-5 in attack https://www.sports-nova.com/2020/06...unnar-solskjaer-rejuvenate-manchester-united/

tl:dr – Ole actually does have a clear system, but it has changed through the season to adapt to injuries. Saying there is no system is wrong!

Can I just say well done on a great post.

My own personal opinion is that he is not good.

the one thing I will add is that I am no fan of Maguire. He is a negative player. He passes to feet and does not pass in front of a player to run on to. He slows the game down imo

 

[Jeffthered]

No, we haven't a system, nor identity under OGS. Mourinho (love it or hate it..) has a system. Klopp has a system. Pep has a system. Nuno @ Wolves has a system. Even Bielsa at Leeds, has a system. Their teams have an 'identity'.

What is ours? Playing fast on the break?

I keep saying it, OGS is just like Southgate. Say the right thing for media, nice people, but I have no idea whether they have any self-belief or not, and their teams reflect that. They are committed, and think about things. But they aren't clear in what they want. Teams reflect their managers... just like business etc.

 

[Foxbatt]

True but currently based on the season just ending only really city and liverpol are in a position to laugh at us. They've been streets ahead of us for a good few years now. Their squads are currently better as well and have had settled managers in their roles for previous 5 years.



But your man I was replying too seems to think we should be challenging with the squad we got, he is deluded if he thinks that. I can't be any more straight forward than that.

We literally had to max out our first 11 to just about finish 3rd with a strong performance from after Christmas. Best part is we still have holes in the first 11 which at the moment dont seem to be getting filled.


So I cant see the reality of where your man thinks we should be at the moment, and other teams supposedly laughing at our manager because we are so brutal. Silly if you ask me.

No it is ridiculous to even think we can be challenging. Honestly in my opinion with this current team and manager we would be extremely lucky to finish even 4th this season. What we need is a very good coach to help Ole. Not some inexperience newbies like Carrick etc.

 

[Paul778]

No it is ridiculous to even think we can be challenging. Honestly in my opinion with this current team and manager we would be extremely lucky to finish even 4th this season. What we need is a very good coach to help Ole. Not some inexperience newbies like Carrick etc.

Is Rene free or past it now?

 

[Bastian]

I can't remember Ole ever talking about playing with a high defensive line. He's talked about fitness. He's talked about pressing, but his midfield up to the present day has not really been cut out for a high pressing game, and certainly not the defense.

He's bought players mainly to fit in to his counter attacking setup, until that got badly exposed and we signed Bruno to change course. Maguire does fit into a team wanting to play more possession-based football, but he'll obviously need a top class defender next to him with pace. AWB - as great a one vs one defender he is - still has everything to improve on in terms of footballing ability (great for counter attacking football, like James too).

Can't help thinking that the constants are "right characters" and not any particular style of play. This is not meant to disparage him, just illustrate that he's not really presented any clear vision on how he wants to play. Just vague notions of fitness and attacking football.

Probably more importantly - as Ole doesn't look at himself as a coaching manager (again, emulating SAF) - have any of the coaches given interviews or had quotes attributed to them where they talk about their vision or how they want to develop the team?

 

[Greck]

I can't remember Ole ever talking about playing with a high defensive line. He's talked about fitness. He's talked about pressing, but his midfield up to the present day has not really been cut out for a high pressing game, and certainly not the defense.

He's bought players mainly to fit in to his counter attacking setup, until that got badly exposed and we signed Bruno to change course. Maguire does fit into a team wanting to play more possession-based football, but he'll obviously need a top class defender next to him with pace. AWB - as great a one vs one defender he is - still has everything to improve on in terms of footballing ability (great for counter attacking football, like James too).

Can't help thinking that the constants are "right characters" and not any particular style of play. This is not meant to disparage him, just illustrate that he's not really presented any clear vision on how he wants to play. Just vague notions of fitness and attacking football.

Probably more importantly - as Ole doesn't look at himself as a coaching manager (again, emulating SAF) - have any of the coaches given interviews or had quotes attributed to them where they talk about their vision or how they want to develop the team?

Why our ex-players make for awful to mediocre managers. They're all just doing their various SAF imitations. They try to emulate his strengths while also emulating his weakness in the tactical philosophical department. SAF was an outlier in every sense.

 

[Bastian]

Why our ex-players make for awful to mediocre managers. They're all just doing their various SAF imitations. They try to emulate his strengths while also emulating his weakness in the tactical philosophical department. SAF was an outlier in every sense.

I can't speak on the others, not followed any of them closely, but it's very interesting that he describes himself as a non-coaching manager. Came into the job here and brought Phelan, inherited Carrick and McKenna. So the development of the team and individuals is down to the latter three. I've no idea what their outlook is, or the authority they have to execute their ideas.

 

[Greck]

I can't speak on the others, not followed any of them closely, but it's very interesting that he describes himself as a non-coaching manager. Came into the job here and brought Phelan, inherited Carrick and McKenna. So the development of the team and individuals is down to the latter three. I've no idea what their outlook is, or the authority they have to execute their ideas.

That's the kind of description that would rile up some of his supporters if he didn't say it with his own mouth. There's nothing wrong with being a non-coaching manager but he needs to entrust all of that stuff to capable hands. Carrick is a newbie and Phelan oversaw the period of the worst football we had in the Fergie era. The insistence on using SAF's former associates is just another unnecessary SAF imitation. He needs his own Queiroz if he is to succeed.

 

[Foxbatt]

I just saw on the video of Ajax when Cruijff was the manager. Van Basten goes wide to drag the CB with him while the midfield players go up as the striker(s). So we do not need AWB to over lap all the time if Martial can drag a CB away from the centre and Bruno or someone else fill that space. Because our play is so slow and lethargic is why it is not happening. As for Ole not being a non coaching manager then why they hell is he at United?

 

[monosierra]

I just saw on the video of Ajax when Cruijff was the manager. Van Basten goes wide to drag the CB with him while the midfield players go up as the striker(s). So we do not need AWB to over lap all the time if Martial can drag a CB away from the centre and Bruno or someone else fill that space. Because our play is so slow and lethargic is why it is not happening. As for Ole not being a non coaching manager then why they hell is he at United?

Man manager, squad building and overall tactics probably. But the greatest coaches/managers get their ideas down to the minute level too, don't they? I'd compare this non-coaching manager to an architect who doesn't delve into the technical aspects of construction but focuses on aesthetics only, trusting his colleagues to translate the style into details for construction. Whereas the stronger architects have the knowledge to execute their stylistic concepts into construction documentation. Of course, one could be a great team leader and stylist without in-depths knowledge of construction but you'd have to have a damned good team around you.

 

[gerdm07]

How did yesterdays game change anything about my post? I argued that Solskjær is massively underperforming as manager of Uniteds squad, and from what I can see, that point stands after last night. Use all the emojis you like. It still does not change the fact that Solskjær failed to motivate his players yet again yesterday.

The general consensus among other teams fans is that as long as Solskjær is manager they have nothing to fear. The guy screams mediocrity and his tactics, or rather lack thereof holds a relatively good squad back.

Did you do a scientific poll with 100s of fans? Was it a random sampling? Can you share the results?

Or is this your opinion based on a few conversations?

 

[sammsky1]

I got to say this is quite crazy reaction based off one loss. Ole can still have a good season and his system can still work. For me Palace loss wasn’t a system issue more so players being sloppy/rusty. Over a season Ole has proven he can get us top 4 (I don’t buy the points argument as every season is different, so comparing points is just silly), he needs to be backed this transfer window and allowed to do his work. 95% of you probably can’t fully explain a teams system, so stop pretending you can. Is this forum gonna lose its mind every time we lose? Because we’re gonna lose some games this season...

This thread is simply another passive aggressive moan fest from OleOUT mob.

And yes, they will create new threads every time we lose with the same old rubbish about ‘coaching patterns of play‘, whatever the heck that even means. Seems as though armchair fans have all been promoted to become armchair coaching critics, all with FIFA accredited badges

 

[sammsky1]

I guess last season didn’t happen. This thread is so pointless. Our attack was such a force last season. One game doesn’t change all that progress.

Latest bat shit crazy complaint is apparently OGS doesn’t know how to train strikers

 

[Jibbs]

I just saw on the video of Ajax when Cruijff was the manager. Van Basten goes wide to drag the CB with him while the midfield players go up as the striker(s). So we do not need AWB to over lap all the time if Martial can drag a CB away from the centre and Bruno or someone else fill that space. Because our play is so slow and lethargic is why it is not happening. As for Ole not being a non coaching manager then why they hell is he at United?

Because he scored that goal in 99 final. I see no other reason why a club like United would appoint such a mediocre manager.

 

[The Boy]

This thread is simply another passive aggressive moan fest from OleOUT mob.

And yes, they will create new threads every time we lose with the same old rubbish about ‘coaching patterns of play‘, whatever the heck that even means. Seems as though armchair fans have all been promoted to become armchair coaching critics, all with FIFA accredited badges

It's a shame as when I wrote the OP I was hoping for a proper discussion about tactics as I'm no expert but find it really interesting. To be fair there are some very good posts in the thread about that, but you have to scroll through a lot of no tactics/no coaching to find them.

It is weird though, because you would think the players would have something to say if the training sessions were really "just get out there and have fun lads" but so far they all seem on board with the project and behind the manager, surely that suggests that whether he uses the right tactics and strategies or not, he certainly does enough to command their respect.

 

[The Boy]

I guess last season didn’t happen. This thread is so pointless. Our attack was such a force last season. One game doesn’t change all that progress.

Read the OP - the thread was meant to be a serious chat about the tactics Ole uses.

 

[Sky1981]

I think Ole does have a plan.
He wants to use the individual ability of our star players to create/score.
When our lesser players play, notice how clueless they are.
A great manager can make lesser players perform well - as we saw against CP, managed by Hodgson. CP don't have the kind of talented players that we have, but by using the correct system, Hodgson was able to get them to outscore us.

Anyone have a plan, if I'm being made manager of Manchester United I too will have some plan.

The question is whether my plan is good enough, and whether I'm good enough to make my plan works.

 

[He'sRaldo]

It's a shame as when I wrote the OP I was hoping for a proper discussion about tactics as I'm no expert but find it really interesting. To be fair there are some very good posts in the thread about that, but you have to scroll through a lot of no tactics/no coaching to find them.

It is weird though, because you would think the players would have something to say if the training sessions were really "just get out there and have fun lads" but so far they all seem on board with the project and behind the manager, surely that suggests that whether he uses the right tactics and strategies or not, he certainly does enough to command their respect.

I don't think overarching tactics are lacking, the issue is detail.

There's definitely a plan, the question is is it good enough, are the coaches well versed in drilling the minutest details of their ideas into the players? To what level of detail do we do things? I think that's the bottom line.

With things like positional play and pressing, the more detail the coach is able to drill into the players the more efficient the play will be on the pitch. The most quality coaches can make the players stand in the exact spots at the exact times and make decisions that extra bit faster than their opposition, which all raises the floor of the team's play.

What you described in your OP is a good overview, but the meaning behind the "no coaching" complaints is that the instructions we give our players don't seem as detailed as other opposition, and we also don't seem as well drilled. I remember when this was an issue for Klopp as well in the possession aspect of the game. He eventually parted ways with his long time assistant Buvac, and hired Ljinders to improve the possession play of his team, and around that time he reached the CL finals, and has finally won the PL.

I think this is the next step for Ole. Hire a top class positional coach from another smaller team that is overperforming, and then sort out the pressing and positional play so that we can raise the floor of our play. Should he do this, we'll definitely take a huge step towards competing for the big prizes; however if he doesn't, I don't think he'll last for much longer.

 

[r0663664]

Ole is just not a capable manager, I am not sure why is he still the manager of Utd. I think everyone knows that he is a "Yes" man, a legend, knows what to say not to upset the fans but tactical, he has implemented nothing. He is only relying individual brilliance to win a game, that is why he only buys quality. He looks at the stats of the player, how tackle he makes, he many successful pass, how many chances created, no. of goals scored and others. Klopp is probably the best manager in the world by getting good player to perform at high standard. Good players becomes star player, average becomes good. Pep also need quality but he has a system and would fail as well.

 

[The Boy]

I don't think overarching tactics are lacking, the issue is detail.

There's definitely a plan, the question is is it good enough, are the coaches well versed in drilling the minutest details of their ideas into the players? To what level of detail do we do things? I think that's the bottom line.

With things like positional play and pressing, the more detail the coach is able to drill into the players the more efficient the play will be on the pitch. The most quality coaches can make the players stand in the exact spots at the exact times and make decisions that extra bit faster than their opposition, which all raises the floor of the team's play.

What you described in your OP is a good overview, but the meaning behind the "no coaching" complaints is that the instructions we give our players don't seem as detailed as other opposition, and we also don't seem as well drilled. I remember when this was an issue for Klopp as well in the possession aspect of the game. He eventually parted ways with his long time assistant Buvac, and hired Ljinders to improve the possession play of his team, and around that time he reached the CL finals, and has finally won the PL.

I think this is the next step for Ole. Hire a top class positional coach from another smaller team that is overperforming, and then sort out the pressing and positional play so that we can raise the floor of our play. Should he do this, we'll definitely take a huge step towards competing for the big prizes; however if he doesn't, I don't think he'll last for much longer.

Yup agree with a lot of this and I certainly think Phelan can and should be improved upon. Carrick and McKenna are apparently popular with the squad so I wouldn't change them necessarily, though both are inexperienced but are learning fast on the job. I don't think even the most ardent Ole in posters would claim that mistakes have not been made.

From an oppo fan point of view, I am without doubt terrified of your front line, the movement, understanding of each other and the technical skill they all have is daunting for any defence. A good example was your last trip to the Amex where you ripped us to bits. I think with those three alone there should be a lot more positivity around your squad and now with a choice of Bruno, Pogba and DvB behind them I expect to see you play a lot more like that this season than you did against Palace.

As for the "no coaching" complaints most them go alongside the "relying on individual brilliance" line which has become it's own narrative for many, it seems that there are some posters here that think (or at least post) that Ole and his team literally do nothing!

 

[SteveW]

Nice of all the clueless people to show themselves on one thread. Easy to know who to ignore going forward.

 

[devilish]

Ole's strengths

He's great in man management, he loves Manchester United, he believes in youths, he's willing to learn from his mistakes (ex he moved out of his Brexit FC policy) and if we insist on him then we might have a SAF mark II ie someone who retires in the darn job

Ole's weaknesses

His tactics are meah and he seem to have a British first policy which is too expensive to sustain and players. That impacts our transfer market (ex spending 80m on a poor man Steve Bruce) and also in his squad selection (ex playing McT ahead of a superior Fred)

Conclusion

The minimum standards are known ie CL qualification. However managers should be properly backed something we're not doing. I was anti Ole for a long long time but even I think that the way the club treated him this summer is beyond disgusting.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

This is how many times we've made substitutions post lockdown by time (can't be arsed going back more than that)

Under 60 minutes - 5 times
60 to 70 minutes - 16 times
70 to 80 minutes - 17 times
80 to 90 minutes - 17 times
90+ minutes - 4 times

Really doesn't suggest he's unwilling to make subs until late in the game.

What were the scores when those subs happened? From my recollection, Ole was more than willing to make subs when the game was already won early and wanted to give first team players a rest or bring on more defensive players to help secure a win. But if the game was close and we still needed to score, he was reluctant to look at the bench for options past our first 11...

 

[Andi Latte]

I don't think the problem is no system per se, it's more of an inability to make it work properly. I kinda get what Ole tries to do, he and his coaches just don't seem capable to impelement it.

The Palace game neatly illustrated quite a few of the problems we had since Ole started out and the fact that they're still there doesn't really fill me with confidence that he will be able to rectify them.

1. Formation
We STILL persist with 4231 when we don't really have wingers, nor a competent 10. Bruno, for me, is an 8, 8.5 maybe. 433 with a specialist 6 would be the way to go with our squad imo, seeing that we are unable to acquire players in the required positions to play 4231.

2. Positioning
This is pretty much a direct consequence of the formation-issue, we are unable to retain any resemblance of shape in possession. I get it, that's what everyone wants, the fabled "free flowing attacking football". The problem is, that requires an amount of drilling that our current coaching staff seems unable to do.

Bruno for example has a free role, but that doesn't mean he should not abide to any shape at all, which unfortunately is exactly what happens. How often do you see Bruno as high up the pitch in possession as the front 3 are, sometimes even higher. The consequence is a huge gap between midfield and attack, which makes defending against soo much easier. Yet the 10 should link midfield and attack. Combine that with our front 3 switching positions seemingly on a whim, and what you get is not "free flowing attacking football", but simply chaos.

During the Palace game, there were at least two occasions where Martial, Rashford and Greenwood were within a few yards of each other on the left, compressing space for each other and leaving the right side completely vacant. Instead of creating space for each other, this achieves exactly the opposite and again, makes it easier to defend against.

Before attempting to play free flowing, we maybe should first get the basics right in a more fixed formation, where everyone has a position or at least a radius in which they can operate. Bruno either lacks the positional discipline to properly play as a 10, which I don"t believe, or he plainly is coached wrong. And of course Greenwood doesn't naturally know how to position himself as a winger, being a striker after all. Again, that's the coaches' job to teach him.

3. No discernable patterns of play
This, again, results from the above: if positioning is not coached properly, no wonder that our chances created look random and only a result of individual brilliance, as no player 100% knows where each other is at any given time. They pretty much have to make it up as they go. Which is why only our best players are able to make it work.

If you look at City, Liverpool, but also "lesser" teams like Everton atm, they all have some kind of "signature" plays that can be observed multiple times in any given game, regardless of the opposition and also, more importantly, regardless of quality on the field.

4. Defensive positioning.
Seeing that the post got longer than I intended already, I will only say this: We're trying to play a high line with Lindelof and Maguire as our CBs. It barely works with AWB in the side, but without him, it should really be to noones surprise that we start shipping soft goals.


So, yeah, in short I am of the opinion our coaching staff is doing a bad job in setting up the team in games where we are "favourites" and I am not sure if any amount of transfers can solve that problem. Sooner or later, heads should roll and it is ultimately within Ole's responsibility to act before it's his own head on the chopping block. If he is blinded by the good results, which are largely thanks to the fact that we have players in our first 11 that are indeed that good, I don't see a long term future here for him unfortunately.

 

[Bebestation]

I don't think the problem is no system per se, it's more of an inability to make it work properly. I kinda get what Ole tries to do, he and his coaches just don't seem capable to impelement it.

The Palace game neatly illustrated quite a few of the problems we had since Ole started out and the fact that they're still there doesn't really fill me with confidence that he will be able to rectify them.

1. Formation
We STILL persist with 4231 when we don't really have wingers, nor a competent 10. Bruno, for me, is an 8, 8.5 maybe. 433 with a specialist 6 would be the way to go with our squad imo, seeing that we are unable to acquire players in the required positions to play 4231.

2. Positioning
This is pretty much a direct consequence of the formation-issue, we are unable to retain any resemblance of shape in possession. I get it, that's what everyone wants, the fabled "free flowing attacking football". The problem is, that requires an amount of drilling that our current coaching staff seems unable to do.

Bruno for example has a free role, but that doesn't mean he should not abide to any shape at all, which unfortunately is exactly what happens. How often do you see Bruno as high up the pitch in possession as the front 3 are, sometimes even higher. The consequence is a huge gap between midfield and attack, which makes defending against soo much easier. Yet the 10 should link midfield and attack. Combine that with our front 3 switching positions seemingly on a whim, and what you get is not "free flowing attacking football", but simply chaos.

During the Palace game, there were at least two occasions where Martial, Rashford and Greenwood were within a few yards of each other on the left, compressing space for each other and leaving the right side completely vacant. Instead of creating space for each other, this achieves exactly the opposite and again, makes it easier to defend against.

Before attempting to play free flowing, we maybe should first get the basics right in a more fixed formation, where everyone has a position or at least a radius in which they can operate. Bruno either lacks the positional discipline to properly play as a 10, which I don"t believe, or he plainly is coached wrong. And of course Greenwood doesn't naturally know how to position himself as a winger, being a striker after all. Again, that's the coaches' job to teach him.

3. No discernable patterns of play
This, again, results from the above: if positioning is not coached properly, no wonder that our chances created look random and only a result of individual brilliance, as no player 100% knows where each other is at any given time. They pretty much have to make it up as they go. Which is why only our best players are able to make it work.

If you look at City, Liverpool, but also "lesser" teams like Everton atm, they all have some kind of "signature" plays that can be observed multiple times in any given game, regardless of the opposition and also, more importantly, regardless of quality on the field.

4. Defensive positioning.
Seeing that the post got longer than I intended already, I will only say this: We're trying to play a high line with Lindelof and Maguire as our CBs. It barely works with AWB in the side, but without him, it should really be to noones surprise that we start shipping soft goals.


So, yeah, in short I am of the opinion our coaching staff is doing a bad job in setting up the team in games where we are "favourites" and I am not sure if any amount of transfers can solve that problem. Sooner or later, heads should roll and it is ultimately within Ole's responsibility to act before it's his own head on the chopping block. If he is blinded by the good results, which are largely thanks to the fact that we have players in our first 11 that are indeed that good, I don't see a long term future here for him unfortunately.

I agree & a good post.

The biggest point is that he doesn't see the subtle differences between the 4231 and the 433.

He gets to pick the exact same players but instead of having Rashford and Greenwood so wide and deep almost as creative wingers in a 4231 they should be pure inverted forwards in a 433. Martial is a support striker due to his amazing ability to link up. Martial loves to drop deep and link up play yet we have Rashford and Greenwood so far behind almost trying to create chances for Martial when it should be the other way around. That's the front 3.

Then we have our midfield. Bruno Fernandes does so much tracking back and defending from CAM that I dont think it helps his attacking play to be honest. If he started in centre of midfield then he has to do less of that tracking/defending and focus much more on the attacking runs and positions he takes.
Pogba would be even better playing next to Bruno as a CM rather than this weird 2nd CDM he is playing now. With those two allowed to take in to make runs in to CAM, pass between within themselves, pass to others or shoot - it's goingto be a nightmare for any team. Remember that Martial will be dropping deep to link up play with these players.

CDM gets to focus much more on the single job of defensive stability with 2 creative midfielders playing in front. This makes our defence better, allowing us to go 3 at the back with the CDM guarding between the CB incase of a counterattack whilst our fullbacks get forward to provide midfield width & protection.

The 4231 is so irritating because it's so very close to the 433 but its unnecessarily different for no reason.

 

[Cardboard elk]

It is nice that all the Ole haters can have their own thread here, so there is less poison in the other threads.

 

[The Boy]

It is nice that all the Ole haters can have their own thread here, so there is less poison in the other threads.

Read the OP not an Ole hating thread at all

 

[amolbhatia50k]

It is nice that all the Ole haters can have their own thread here, so there is less poison in the other threads.

This comes across as a bit childish. Not rating a manager isn't "poisonous"and you should be able to deal with an opposing view. We aren't talking about someone who has won big trophies either.

 

[Skills]

This comes across as a bit childish. Not rating a manager isn't "poisonous"and you should be able to deal with an opposing view. We aren't talking about someone who has won big trophies either.

You need to remember that any criticism of the manager, most of these folk take as criticism of their own dad.

 

[Smores]

The biggest issue in regards to his tactics and coaching is we don't seem to work on things that aren't working.

Case in point as someone else says above Bruno was too high in many games and yet it didn't appear to be worked on. Williams has a tendency to make ground up the pitch before stopping and passing it infield. We had a ridiculous amount of games with Pogba isolated and it was obvious to everyone. There's countless repetitive issues that our coaches don't seem to be fixing quick enough.

Ole might consider that his coaches job but ultimately if they're not doing it then it's on him to resolve.

 

[Skills]

The biggest issue in regards to his tactics and coaching is we don't seem to work on things that aren't working.

Case in point as someone else says above Bruno was too high in many games and yet it didn't appear to be worked on. Williams has a tendency to make ground up the pitch before stopping and passing it infield. We had a ridiculous amount of games with Pogba isolated and it was obvious to everyone. There's countless repetitive issues that our coaches don't seem to be fixing quick enough.

Ole might consider that his coaches job but ultimately if they're not doing it then it's on him to resolve.

We have a weird situation where the guy accountable for picking the team and making subs, isn't accountable for the coaching on the training ground.

Which other club in club football runs under this structure?

 

[lRed]

Very good post mate, love your point of view and how you structured it.

 

[The Boy]

We have a weird situation where the guy accountable for picking the team and making subs, isn't accountable for the coaching on the training ground.

Which other club in club football runs under this structure?

Isn't this how SAF operated? He was famously not too involved in coaching sessions