EPO ?
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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EPO ?
That is?
Ole can ask Sundby and Johaug, they know the best way to improve results.
I don't doubt he has the backing of Old Trafford. After all, the majority of the fans at OT are those who always stand by their manager no matter the circumstance. Partly the reason as well why we are no longer a top club because there are no standards anymore and sentiments run the rules. Truth be told if we were a club that held high standards on the 'footballing side' , OGS should have long been gone but what do I know? I am a not a true fan but glory hunter who moans becuase I want the best for my club. Anyone who complains that OGS is a very average manager and we could do better than him is an entitled 'fan'.
The same OT fans who applauded Moyes while he ran us into the ground are now the yardstick for true fandom. That's not a high standard of fanbase don't you think? There will always be differing views on what happens in a club. I have nothing against those who support Ole even in the face of stark reality that he may not lead us anywhere. They are true fans as well who just hold views' different to others and there shouldn't be any name-calling for those who don't. They all love the club and want the best for it. You are not a superior fan in anyway to the people you label as 'Redcafe or Twitter fans'. You even had the temerity to call them 'WEIRD NEW BREED' despite many of them staying awake in odd hours at different corners of the globe to watch us or feel massive pain at the way we are currently as a club. They have supported the club under rain or shine the same way you have so stop playing that superiority card. Everyone will not think like you or support your line of reasoning and it is understandable and expected.
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More drivel talk. Another big bam manger like who? It’s not the big name that’s the problem it’s their philosophy. When we sack Ole we need to be looking at someone who’s big enough for the job whilst also being a good coach who has attacking principles. I couldn’t care what players in our team he likes.
Excellent comment.
You think management is as easy as ‘get them into shape’
He’ll know exactly what he wants and how he wants it. The coaches job is to carry out his orders. You have to believe a good coach does it to a t... which is why managers tend to keep their coaching staff.
So? Just because Mourinho and Van Gaal didn’t workout (even though they won us some trophies and Mourinho came second one season) doesn’t mean we should stop going for the best out there..
would you take Klopp or pep? And I know there is no one available that’s at their level, but that’s when you go for the best you can get..
If the secretary of the Swedish Nobel prize committee saw this you would be a contender.
@Kemizee
Btw. I saw a wonderful movie from Lagos called Mokalik on Netflix the other day. That movie made my day. The Nigerian song the played on the radio station in the beginning is one of the best I heard in long time. I googled him, Kent Edunjobi, he should go global with his music.
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Not sure, but Ole needs to know also judging by our injury record 10 games deep into the season.
Also, improving the fitness of players alone is a very limited style of coaching and I have yet to see anything else Ole has attempted to coach into this team of players, so there's that too.
If that's cutting edge, then most managers in the league are hip as feck.
Haha. Kent is a great artist. The producer is Kunle Afolayan. He is highly rated here. You can also check out 'October 1' and 'King of Boys'. Both are interesting movies too. I'm sure you'd like them.
That he did.well he did ask for the cutting edge technology to improve fitness
This is the fattest (and saltiest) red herring i think i've ever seen, but ill bite
He was our reserve team coach until 2010, he then went to Molde mostly because of his family, won the league in 10/11 and 11/12 and then cup the year after. When he got offered a job in the PL the year after he took it despite Cardiff being in MASSIVE trouble when he got there in January. Cardiff hiring him in the first place was an utterly desperate attempt at salvaging their season and lo and behold it failed badly.
He returned to Molde the year after where they did pretty poorly in the league, but they punched well above their weight in Europe where they won their group ahead of Fenerbache, Ajax and Celtic, but got knocked out of reining champions Sevilla 3-1 on aggregate. The remaining seasons he finished second behind Rosenborg who is the Bayern of the Norwegian League (and then some). Him managing in Norway is not that strange (he is Norwegian after all) and by the way, he turned down an offer from Villa in 2012, because he did not want to unsettle his family. And i know he has gray hair, but Ole is only 46, he is not some old geezer that has spent years without a job because of his "scandalous" stint in Cardiff. 99% of managers start small where they learn their trade. And despite the Norwegian League being small and shite, the job as a manager is still largely the same as in the bigger leagues (believe it or not)
And i dont have anything against Poch. I think hes a decent coach, but i also think he gets way to much credit around here. Tottenham regularly breaking into the top 4 has as much to do with us and Arsenal being shite the last years and Chelsea being as volatile and unstable as ever. Since 14/15 they have gotten 63, 70, 86, 77, 71 points. Apart from that 16/17 season where they were really good, thats hardly amazing. And its not like Tottenham is some sort of small time club and Poch has made them take massive strides forward. They've always hovered around top 6-4, but the difference now and then is that breaking into the top 4 back in the 00's and early 10's was a much harder task since you had to compete with Wenger, Ferguson, Jose and a Liverpool that was up and down but also really good from time to time.
Also being at the top level does not automatically make you more competent. Trump has been president of the most powerful nation in the world for 3 years now. Does that make him a good statesman? No. Hes still an orange arsehole and probably one of the worst human beings to have ever lived
Ole might be a novice, but if we wanted to trade him for Poch, i dont see how his experience or credentials make him a better fit for the job. Getting a very talented and young Tottenham squad into the CL with very little other pressure to deliver is wildly different from the current job description at United. If there was an available manager that was a master of rebuilding fallen giants and doing well in the present AND building for the future i would have taken him in an heartbeat
And by the way. Despite how you feel about Ole as a manager, referring to a club legend as "some guy from Norway" or "that guy who relegated Cardiff" just to try and score some cheap rhetorical point is fecking disrespectful
Ah, so you have no idea either?
Seriously ? And you think what you read is the "fattest" or so ?
Whatever way you try to spin his career out, the fact is he has spent the majority of his career managing in a no name league winning meaningless trophies on the top level while Poch at exactly same age and part of his career was moving ahead from La Liga to Premier League to building a regular top 4 team with a team that was not used to be a consistent top team like Spurs, not with an already established big team. Of course any reasonable person in the world will say finishing regular top 4 in the strongest league in the world and reaching advanced stages in CL is better than winning some leagues at Norway.
The main point that makes this comparison ridiculous to start with is as I said, both started at nearly the same time, and both are of nearly the same age, however one of them had their career trajectory up while the other couldn't. We're not comparing Poch's start to Ole's start. We are comparing them at exactly same spot.
Ole isn't a novice. He has been coaching for nearly 9-10 years. He's just a terrible all around manager whose career has been underwhelming for probably a strong reason. He hasn't started his career recently. He just couldn't land any job at top flight level beside Cardiff.
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Seriously ? And you think what you read is the "fattest" or so ?
Whatever way you try to spin his career out, the fact is he has spent the majority of his career managing in a no name league winning meaningless trophies on the top level while Poch at exactly same age and part of his career was moving ahead from La Liga to Premier League to building a regular top 4 team with a team that was not used to be a consistent top team like Spurs, not with an already established big team. Of course any reasonable person in the world will say finishing regular top 4 in the strongest league in the world and reaching advanced stages in CL is better than winning some leagues at Norway.
The main point that makes this comparison ridiculous to start with is as I said, both started at nearly the same time, and both are of nearly the same age, however one of them had their career trajectory up while the others couldn't. We're not comparing Poch's start to Ole's start. We are comparing them at exactly same spot.
Ole isn't a novice. He has been coaching for nearly 9-10 years. He's just a terrible all around manager whose career has been underwhelming for probably a strong reason. He hasn't started his career recently. He just couldn't land any job at top flight level beside Cardiff.
You're wasting your time trying to explain.Seriously ? And you think what you read is the "fattest" or so ?
Whatever way you try to spin his career out, the fact is he has spent the majority of his career managing in a no name league winning meaningless trophies on the top level while Poch at exactly same age and part of his career was moving ahead from La Liga to Premier League to building a regular top 4 team with a team that was not used to be a consistent top team like Spurs, not with an already established big team. Of course any reasonable person in the world will say finishing regular top 4 in the strongest league in the world and reaching advanced stages in CL is better than winning some leagues at Norway.
The main point that makes this comparison ridiculous to start with is as I said, both started at nearly the same time, and both are of nearly the same age, however one of them had their career trajectory up while the others couldn't. We're not comparing Poch's start to Ole's start. We are comparing them at exactly same spot.
Ole isn't a novice. He has been coaching for nearly 9-10 years. He's just a terrible all around manager whose career has been underwhelming for probably a strong reason. He hasn't started his career recently. He just couldn't land any job at top flight level beside Cardiff.
He seems to think finishing 12th in the league for multiple seasons under Ole is some master plan, and continuing this trajectory, we will be challenging for the league in 2-3 years from now.
When i replied asking for evidence to point to, that Solskjaer has the necessary credentials and know-how that he's capable of achieving this, he ignored me.
That's the most frustrating thing, there never is any evidence supporting these claims, it's just sheer blind hope and optimism.
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Nah, but if I was earning one of the highest salaries in Europe for a coach/manager I'm sure I'd be forced to improve in that area and try to find out.
Any manager can move to a no name league and win things there. Not any manager can come to a PL team and make them a regular and respectable top 4 one playing in CL regularly. Football have different levels you know.
Starting to feel the same yeah.
Ole certainly isn't the first to take over a big club in dire circumstances. He stabilised the club to begin with, which was great & is what got him the permanent job. But you still have to show constant progress to be afforded further time. Ever since, everyone has to admit the progress has been minimal at best under Ole so far.
Dalglish took over Liverpool after Hodgson's terrible reign in Jan 2011, they were in very similar circumstances to us now, hovering around the bottom half. Like Ole, he stabilised them, finishing 6th, gaining him the permanent job. The following season he won the league cup (their first trophy for 6 years) and narrowly lost the FA cup final to Chelsea. He was still sacked for 'poor results' finishing 8th in the league.
We have to ask ourselves where are we going under Ole? It's not like he has any relevant past successes to fall back on. The club's plan for recruitment & future direction isn't exclusive to Ole being here. If there isn't a dramatic increase in performances and results until now and the end of the season, there can be no complaints if he's sacked at the end of the season imo.
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I got a headache by reading last 2-3 pages, holy shit.
Agree.
I myself was all over the moon during his honeymoon period and even had no problem with him being appointed. I had nothing to praise for him back then because he's doing well. I turned on him after the performance and results at the end of the season, and was willing to give him another chance this season just to see it continuing the same route.
No one would hate seeing him turning out around and succeeding here, and no one doesn't want to be positive, or enjoy negativity. The problem is we don't see much worthy of being positive about Ole or the team at the moment.
Well, yeah. And how do you know Ole isn't doing jus that?
It's creepy in a way because this sentence also mirrors those statistics to do with Ole's record at half-time in league games.
It seems that he's very good at motivating the players and implementing a plan to begin with. Then it all goes to shit.
I judge that based on performances and results. If he is doing that, he's not doing well at it.
On an unrelated note, As someone quoted above:
We have to ask ourselves where are we going under Ole? The club's plan for recruitment & future direction isn't exclusive to Ole being here. If there isn't a dramatic increase in performances and results until now and the end of the season, there can be no complaints if he's sacked at the end of the season imo.
This is what irks me. We're supposedly desperate for a DOF to ensure that the club has a focus that transcends a manager. So whether Ole is here or not shouldn't have any influence on our direction going forward.
I was completely the same, I couldn't believe how well we performed under him to begin with. But i must admit, seeing the lack of ideas from around February onward, renewed contracts to deadwood... i wasn't optimistic for this season at all. I hoped for the best of course, but i thought he was out of his depth last season. I still hope he can turn it around of course, but i'm not blinded by sentimentality. I think until the end of the season is more than fair.
If Pogba doesn’t end up leaving soon I’ll start thinking he cares more about United than a good chunk of the posters here. Already feel so for De Gea.
Ever since he's been here, to my memory, we start well in the first half but then lose control in the second half when the opponents adjust. His lack of a plan B/C is very apparent, when he comes up against good coaches.
That is what i don't understand too. The whole narrative of Solskjaer coming in as interim to begin with, was so we could properly install the dof position and get them up to speed in time for the summer window. We apparently had learnt our lesson & wanted to prevent the way the clubs strategy has flip-flopped with each change of manager.
When Ole got the permanent job, the dof position went out of the window. It still makes no sense to me why they cancelled it.
Now, surprise, surprise, one of the key arguments in people not wanting to remove Solskjaer is that they are worried the club's direction will change yet again with the new manager. You really can't make it up.
Thanks my friend! Maybe I’m getting softer with age but these authentic every day life movies touch my heart. So refreshing.
Couple of years don't mean last season. It means few season back and 5 seasons is not far off. If you want to go even longer Klopp has nothing on Mourinho if you look at trophies.
I don't know when you started to watch Premier League because its like you saying that Tottenham were nobody before Pochettino. It is crazy. He made them regular top four but before him they were 4-7. The only thing he did is steading the ship. He came to Tottenham full with internationals. It's not like he had 11 spongebobs running not knowing how to kick the ball.
I don't think he is bad manager. I only think you are making him better then he actually is. And you say you are talking about facts. Fact is: 0 trophies. Almost 5 years. Squad full of internationals and stars. Talking about trajectory? I don't know what you want with this. Ole is ManUtd manager. You can't (with few other teams) have a better and bigger job in world.
When you get half of your team injuried and have a thin squad then it is kind of hard. You can't ignore the fact that when we are near healthy we are good and have chance for top 4. I would love to see Liverpool, City or any other team without half the team.
If you can't give credit to someone when credit should be given but only write to criticize then it is only anti-agenda. Nothing more, nothing less.
So what's the point? Just because you are a big name it doesn't mean you are best for a specific club. We had best of the best in Mourinho. We hade world class in vanGaal. So now we are trying a different approach. Ole maybe is more important then lets say Allegri. Not saying that he is but he might be. We will see at the end of the season and evalute things and why things have gone like they have.
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Looking at Solskjaer like a brick layer, he's useful to a certain extent but builders often don't furnish / decorate a house they simply lay a foundation which then needs others to intervene to accomplish a state of completion. We will not see Solskjaer have us challenging for the league, we will not be competitive enough as a team from the fundamentals of coaching, tactical methodologies, philosophy and ethos.
The problem is there's no guarantees, investment doesn't qualify for success hence we have spent the second most amount of funds in the league in ten years with nothing to show for it, so the arguments that Solskjaer will be successful with time is fundamentally flawed what are people basing this off what they seen on the pitch ? The problem with this club is the hierarchy, they give a manager all the impetus to make changes and use resources, then when the managers / coaches end up inevitably underachieving we are left in a circumstance of repetition, sacking the individual and then doing exactly the same thing in the hiring process. Solskjaer is a new face to an old infrastructure, until that changes he will 100% fail. Einstein's theory of doing the exact same thing and expecting different results, how ironic.
The problem is there's no guarantees, investment doesn't qualify for success hence we have spent the second most amount of funds in the league in ten years with nothing to show for it, so the arguments that Solskjaer will be successful with time is fundamentally flawed what are people basing this off what they seen on the pitch ? The problem with this club is the hierarchy, they give a manager all the impetus to make changes and use resources, then when the managers / coaches end up inevitably underachieving we are left in a circumstance of repetition, sacking the individual and then doing exactly the same thing in the hiring process. Solskjaer is a new face to an old infrastructure, until that changes he will 100% fail. Einstein's theory of doing the exact same thing and expecting different results, how ironic.
I have that feeling but from his own perspective why doesn't he seek out his own strong assistant like Sir Alex had with Queroz. I know it's a different era and circumstances but he can still do something along those lines, scout a young coach doing great things in the lower or foreign lower leagues and bring him in to add that X-factor. He wants to play the right way, at least the way we fans will appreciate but in some games we just come up short.
When did I said they were nobodies before him ? I said he made them a regular top 4 team and play regular CL football while even reaching advanced stages. When was the last time before Poch you used to see them finishing second and third several seasons in a row with that kind of consistency ? Must be a very long time. They used to hang around top 4, finishing 5th or 6th at best. He made them a regular top 4 team in a very competitive version of the league.
I think I replied on the trophies part already. The point comes in hand when you're comparing him to other top managers like Pep, Klopp, Conte, etc and yeah in that regard he's inferior to them, and I have criticized him alot about that, but we're comparing him to Ole, a manager who is in his 9 years in management had one top flight job and spent the rest of his career managing in Norway. It's not rocket science when you compare their both career and see how both went on to know who is the better manager.
Regarding bold part, Moyes got the same United job, and we were even league champions back then, so much better than now, so what ?
A couple is exactly two.
Is that all he did?
Half the team? Come on.
How about we try a young up and coming manager? We havent tried that either. I'd go with that option.
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Before Jol came in they where between 9-15 place. Then it looked like this:
2004/2005, 9th (Jol), 2005/2006, 5th (Jol), 2006/2007, 5th (Jol), 2007/2008, 11th (Jol, Ramos, Allen), 2008/2009, 8th (Ramos, Redknapp), 2009/2010, 4th (Redknapp), 2010/2011, 5th (Redknapp), 2011/2012, 4th (Redknapp), 2012/2013, 5th (Boas), 2013/2014, 6th (Sherwood, Boas)
So they were not in top 4 all the time. Instead they went in and out in those years when the League was lot thougher. And as I said, he did make them more (steady the ship) when it comes top 4 but it is not like he hadn't good team taking over.
A couple is not exactly two. That's the most common answer but "a couple" can also be said up to five. According to several sites.
He made them more stable. Before he came they were fighting for 4th Place and that was when the League was lot thougher. Where there were more "top"teams.
There were a period with no Shaw, Bissaka, Pogba, Martial, Lingard, Lindelöf, Jones, Bailly, Tuanzebe, Dalot, Rashford, Matic, and so on. With our thin squad, that's almost half.
Young managers? Do you have any names?
How often are you at the training ground to see what they do?
Seriously ? And you think what you read is the "fattest" or so ?
Whatever way you try to spin his career out, the fact is he has spent the majority of his career managing in a no name league winning meaningless trophies on the top level while Poch at exactly same age and part of his career was moving ahead from La Liga to Premier League to building a regular top 4 team with a team that was not used to be a consistent top team like Spurs, not with an already established big team. Of course any reasonable person in the world will say finishing regular top 4 in the strongest league in the world and reaching advanced stages in CL is better than winning some leagues at Norway.
The main point that makes this comparison ridiculous to start with is as I said, both started at nearly the same time, and both are of nearly the same age, however one of them had their career trajectory up while the other couldn't. We're not comparing Poch's start to Ole's start. We are comparing them at exactly same spot.
Ole isn't a novice. He has been coaching for nearly 9-10 years. He's just a terrible all around manager whose career has been underwhelming for probably a strong reason. He hasn't started his career recently. He just couldn't land any job at top flight level beside Cardiff.
Hehe, ok. League/cup trophies (meaningless trophies):
Ole: 3
Poch: 0
And as i showed in my first response. Poch did in not "build" that team. That's demonstrably false. He simply coached them
In any case, age/career trajectory is utterly irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Do i think Poch is a better coach than Ole? Yeah i do i fact. But i dont think the distance between them is as massive as you would have me believe. That does not mean i would switch Ole for Poch for three key reasons
1) Sacking Ole now would send all kinds of wrong signals. First of all, it would tell many of the (underperforming) players they are in no way responsible at all and they can continue to collect their handsome paychecks while promoting their ridiculous clothing brands and movie deals while delivering sub par performances. It also tells the next man in line (whoever that is) that you will be afforded no time at all to improve this team, and you will have to balance delivering now AND building for the future
2) Despite you barking up the same tree again and again. Poch has no track record of crafting his own squads and making them deliver trophies. If it was someone like Klopp of Pep though (and i feel dirty writing this) i would have taken them in a heartbeat
3) We are currently above Spurs in the league with about the same difficulty in fixtures. One of them in his fifth season with an objectively stronger squad and the other in his first full season. Its a cheap fecking point, but i cant help wonder if Poch has lost the plot? Is he burnt out? Who the feck knows
Is logical fallacies some sort of viral disease among the plastics? (See i can play dirty too, really adds value to the discourse eh?)
The thing we talked about were transfers and whether or not it was wise to throw around money on players on the wrong side of 30. Yeah they might have helped us now, but they are only going to become a problem 1-2 years from now. (See: Matic). Because you know, short sighted transfer dealing have really benefited us the last couple of years.
But you know, that is basically the same as saying finishing 12th will bounce us up to league challengers
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