Yours is an opinion that I respect. Do you really see this team finishing outside of, at worst, the top 6? I just haven't seen anything to make me think that way - short of an appalling injury crisis - so far this season. More positives than negatives for me. I'm pretty confident we'll get top 4.
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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Yours is an opinion that I respect. Do you really see this team finishing outside of, at worst, the top 6? I just haven't seen anything to make me think that way - short of an appalling injury crisis - so far this season. More positives than negatives for me. I'm pretty confident we'll get top 4.
I think many are willing to be patient. I don't think anyone is going to call Ole to be sacked if he fails to finish top 4 or even top 6. I myself think we'll finish outside top 6 and it's still ok. But what many are not willing to give up is on seeing some progression. If we see that there is really something that is being built and in the meantime we have mixed results, I don't think many are going to complain.
What we are seeing is a team that looks clueless as to how to attack and score goals. It's clear that they are not coached well at all. The players look worse than they are, which we can also see when they play for their national teams. Any manager's main quality should be to make the team better than the sum of its parts, which Ole is doing a terrible job of. We have a weaker squad, and expectations are likewise lower, but if there are no signs of progress, adding players of any calibre will only be a minor upgrade.
It was applied to Jose, I don't see why it's not applicable to Ole. It might mean that Ole gets a technical coach like SAF had Quiroz, but something needs to be done.
The site was no doubt way busier after a loss in Fergie's day. I'm sure the admins will have the analytics to prove that. The average person is more likely to leave a negative review for a product they hate than a positive review for a product they love. It's human nature.
I'd gladly admit to misjudging a situation if I felt I have misjudged one, but that's for me to decide. The side we put out yesterday was young and experienced. I was hoping to see something drastically different because of that. I didn't. That side was more than good enough to beat the third place Kazakh team handily, but we scraped through with a relatively late goal. No matter how many times people talk about how many chances we created, how many youth players we played, or how many times we hit the crossbar, that kind of performance falls way below my expectations.
He can't keep trying the same thing, i.e. playing Rashford up front, then be excused for it when Rashford once again puts in a crap performance.
It is early days in his tenure, sure. It's his first full season. I just personally haven't seen enough to suggest he's going to ever get us on track before his inevitable sacking once we slide down the table as this run of getting loads of penalties dries up.
Speak for yourself, it definitely took more time than Ole’s had thus far before I started joining any dogpile against LvG or Mourinho. Ole’s the only one people have wanted out before he even got his first signings in.
I think we haven’t looked very good, despite playing a bunch of relatively easy fixtures. That’s a worry. And I also think our squad is very lean. Which could hurt us once the injuries mount up.
Combine that with the youth/inexperience we just discussed and the fact we already know how bad things can get when they start to go south under Ole and you’d have to be seriously bullish not to be at least a little worried about doing even worse than last season.
That said, we might well make top four but that would probably rely on Arsenal and Chelsea having fairly crappy seasons (even by their own low standards)
Agreed and it absolutely needs addressing. We should never reach the point of having the mental fragility of Arsenal. However I'm hopeful the likes of De Gea signing a new deal and Maguire coming in will help calm things at the back. The midfield of course needs addressing though.
At this point I find it hard to take seriously any United fan not backing him
Yes we were dog shit at the end of the season, but we were also decent for several months.
He’s got rid of a lot of the dead wood and he has signed well.
Despite it not all gelling on the pitch just how he’s got us pressing aggressively and playing attacking football.
A couple more windows and we’ll be in a good place, he can’t transform the squad overnight.
It’s clear also that the players back him, and further managerial churn will only set us back in this respect.
Most of all for me though it’s the alternatives - Poch and Zidane are hardly pulling up trees and the other alternatives for me would all be has beens or relatively unproven.
He’s got my backing for this season at least.
Yes we were dog shit at the end of the season, but we were also decent for several months.
He’s got rid of a lot of the dead wood and he has signed well.
Despite it not all gelling on the pitch just how he’s got us pressing aggressively and playing attacking football.
A couple more windows and we’ll be in a good place, he can’t transform the squad overnight.
It’s clear also that the players back him, and further managerial churn will only set us back in this respect.
Most of all for me though it’s the alternatives - Poch and Zidane are hardly pulling up trees and the other alternatives for me would all be has beens or relatively unproven.
He’s got my backing for this season at least.
Your original point still stands regardless. It's been a running theme in this club ever since Fergie retired; the slightest of knockbacks exposes the mentally fragile players within the squad and spreads like a plague. It was particularly prevalent in Mourinho's last season in charge.
The three new signings all seem to possess strong mentalities though, which suggests that Ole was aware of this weakness within the squad and made a conscious effort to recruit strong characters first and foremost. When you consider that Ole played in a United squad choc-full of leaders, it makes sense that he would search for similarly strong characters to form the heartbeat of a team he is in charge of.
Not that I take their word for gospel. But, two former-pros could only state that our identity is "young and British", footballing wise, there's nothing, at the moment.
I said this under Mourinho as well. Defensively, we've been fine. I wouldn't look too much into Wolves, or Chelsea, or Leicester or even Astana having a go at us. It's a 90 minute game of football, both teams will have periods of pressure. I don't think it highlights any sort of fragility in our mental state.
I will give couple of more windows before coming to that conclusion. Let us not forget we were reportedly after Dybala and Eriksen who are not british. I feel Ole wants to build a core with british players but his main priority is to have players who wants to give their 100% for this club.
Hardly the sharpest analytic minds there so I wouldn't put much store in their opinions. I mean Owen is claiming United always played with a number 10 and fast wingers? Fergie's identity was winning and he didn't have one style of play.
I'd agree with Hargreaves though. The job isn't done and there are obviously more players and time needed before we can judge.
One calls every player one of the best in the world and the other I'm surprised can even dress himself. Our football identity is obviously one of a high press and working on quick transitions and counter attacks and given there was a stat the other day that no one in the league has pressed more than us that obviously backs that up
Your post here represents almost the entire basis, for me anyway, for getting behind what the club are doing now. We've identified a big problem (finally) within the club and real and obvious steps have been taken to remedy that.
I would never take issue with anyone saying what is obvious. The team are not brilliant right now. We do struggle to create chances and we do lack an element of game management. What frustrates me and gives me most pause to come onto this site these days is the volume of people that aren't willing to show some patience and have already judged Ole and the staff. These are people who don't accept the situation and cannot display patience. They all think they do, but they don't.
People say we've been in transition since Ferguson left. We haven't - not really. We've just trundled along making the same mistakes again and again to varying degrees of success or failure (mostly failure). Now we really are in transition. The squad has been stripped almost bare, and even still we have a few players around that need to be upgraded. This is a project, and for me every decision that has been taken is with future success in mind and has been the right decision.
It may well be that Ole is only the right manager for this stage of the transition. Maybe his strength lies more in understanding the right player to bring in, and how to handle the ones we already have. So far he is spotless in this area in my opinion, beyond criticism. Will he be a good enough coach for the next phase? Who knows. I don't think we have nearly enough information to make an informed decision on that right now.
If the team is clueless how to attack how come we create a fine amount of goal chances, by accident. As for scoring part you can't coach that. I mean you can but you can't put but the ball in the net instead of players. If you can't see progression that's on you.
Well done on promoting the youth.
With Ole it's interesting because I like the direction he's taking us in, in that the signings have been good and he appears to want to make us a younger and fitter team. On the other hand I'm not sure he's actually a very good manager given we don't really look a well managed team.
Let's see how he gets on over the next few months but some have alluded to a role of technical director /DoF/part of the football committee suiting him. Or he needs a top class coach to take over the on the pitch systemic coaching.
With Ole it's interesting because I like the direction he's taking us in, in that the signings have been good and he appears to want to make us a younger and fitter team. On the other hand I'm not sure he's actually a very good manager given we don't really look a well managed team.
Let's see how he gets on over the next few months but some have alluded to a role of technical director /DoF/part of the football committee suiting him. Or he needs a top class coach to take over the on the pitch systemic coaching.
Fine amount of chances? How many chances are we actually creating from open play ? Please , I dont want to see the statistics of xG. Just in layman's terms, let's see how many chances do we create in the game?
I think Ole is a good man manager, but not sure he is a good coach. He also does not have the experienced staff to get advise from apart from Mick Phelan. Time will tell. I think he is the right man for the clearout, his three signings have been good, so if the rest follow in that direction it could be real progression. It might be a good idea to bring in a top progressive coach to work with him, not another throwback to the Fergie days.
I'm not sure how you'd find how many chances we've created, but on the premier league site it says we've taken 73 shots, with 23 on target. We've scored 2 penalties and missed 2, and hit the woodwork twice. We're scoring 1.6 goals per match.
This stat doesn't include last nights performance bare in mind.
His idea of what he wants from us is good, but game after game I struggle to see anything that makes me think he's capable on a coaching level to be the right man. I just don't think he's got it. His vision and what he wants to achieve is refreshing and good to see from a Utd manager, undeniably, but that can only get us so far.
If he's given enough time, he can definitely surround himself with the right people tactically and technically, and in that case, he would be able to overcome his own deficiencies. All while still keeping us on the right track.
I hope this is eventually what happens.
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It's not a fact. We have a clear identity. You just somehow fail to see it. There's a lot of posts on here already as to what our style is and also about what seems to be Ole's long term plan so I won't delve into that again. You want facts? We were clearly dominant last game while playing our backup team and if we actually finished our big chances we would have won 5-0 but we didn't. That's nothing to do with Ole, that's just poor finishing. Or do you think Ole instructed the likes of Rashford and Dalot to miss those tap-ins? We've had some bad results yes but most of our performances have been good.
Agreed, can't get why someone still couldn't see that.
It looks like hate, when people can't even find anything positive about our game. And when people don't understand where we are as a club and what kind of players we have. When people can't be happy with wins.
I think you are wrong here. First and most I do believe that they are getting proper coaching. For the first time in a couple of years I see progress. Progress takes time and changing style from Mourinho/VanGaal takes time. They are great managers and put there own style. Ole had one preseason with the team and I see what he is trying to do. Fast game, possesion and pressing. Yes, it sometimes don't work out but it's not like he has a squad or worldbeaters. Is it?
Our amazing talent? They are talented. Absolutly. But we should take it easy with this amazing. We had talented players when Mourinho and Van Gaal were here but not much happened. Van Gaal had something good going on but he got fired and his plan stopped with Mourinho coming in and demanding more imminent success with "ready" players. And I thought we had better talents then. Now some of our current kids havn't done anything to show that they are amazing. However Ole is giving them chance. And who knows what will happen in 6 months time. Maybe they become amazing players. We don't know. If they are good enough they will show that.
I've made the comparison in the past that he may end up for us like what Rodgers was for Liverpool. He can do good things for us and get us back on the right track but he himself may be limited and we'll need someone else to take us to that next level.
That said, I agree with what he's done so far and based on that evidence I think he's capable of instilling his vision in the team. Hopefully it translates this season and he earns himself more time. He's put a lot on the shoulders of Rashford and Martial and they need to repay the faith.
It may be telling that the team performance improved instantly after Jose left and Ole was appointed. Since he's had time to implement his system, the squad has regressed tremendously. That is the exact opposite of what you would expect from a top level manager/coach.
On the one hand we have a lot of people claim that they see no indication of a system from Ole, on the other hand he does have a system and its ruined the team. The guy can't win
I strongly disagree!
A clear identity is when you see similar designated movements over and over again. Like domino effects or moving pieces on a chessboard. There is nothing in our build up, possession game or end product who’s similar from one game to another except individual brilliance from a few of our players. Our passing game is slow and predictable. Our movements isn’t synchronized. Our pressing game is only working when we have fresh legs, after 20 minutes we are on our heels and often ends up in our own half defending with nine players behind the ball.
I’m fully aware of that we play with many new players, youngsters and they all need time (the fancy word on this place is ..... p a t i e n c e) but the lack of progress worries me. Almost nine month and we still look more often then not almost clueless when team park the bus against us.
Our performances has been mediocre to bad. 20 sparkling minutes against Chelsea and a few good moments against Wolves, that’s it. We didn’t exactly impress against Southampton. The result against Crystal Palace speaks for itself. One penalty against Leicester and apart from that we where almost toothless.
Is that your definition of being good the you and I have different expectations.
Just pick up 3 points more often than not and they will soon shut up.
Really? Really?!
Apart from Chelsea (50/50) we have been better then any other team. By miles (except Leicester). Should have won games we drew or lost. We gave Leicester first lost this year and they didn't manage to treath our goal if you take away Maddison chance in first half. What we are missing is taking our chances.
After 5 games, we have one defeat in Premier Legaue. Best defensive stats and have scored eight. With a real goalscorer we could have scored more. We won our first Europa League game with kids/subs. All that despite having a squad that is not near finnished. I don't know what people want?
Exactly. The progress isn’t there
Or he hasn’t implemented a system which has been said all along.
People want miracles. We were never going to be the Liverpool or City standard. We are improving, confidence will come.
If we keep winning we will get more confident and start scoring goals once Martial, Pogba, Rashford all have 15 games in a row.
Every game, I just seem to question his in game management, especially subs.
On subs he seems to wait an eternity every game. Yesterday it was clear that Chong was fading and becoming more ineffective, losing the ball needlessly, yet it in my opinion took too long to make the subs. And this is not a criticism of Ole himself but, I never get how they sit up in the seats getting final instructions, ball goes out of play and are not ready to put them in and sometimes another 3-4 minutes go by before ball goes out of play to be able to make the subs.
I like what he is doing with the direction of the club, can't fault him for some of the sloppy play or missing of chances but, still I'd like to see an improvement from him on being more proactively making adjustments in game, especially since this is such a young/inexperienced squad where they do need a bit more coaching.
On subs he seems to wait an eternity every game. Yesterday it was clear that Chong was fading and becoming more ineffective, losing the ball needlessly, yet it in my opinion took too long to make the subs. And this is not a criticism of Ole himself but, I never get how they sit up in the seats getting final instructions, ball goes out of play and are not ready to put them in and sometimes another 3-4 minutes go by before ball goes out of play to be able to make the subs.
I like what he is doing with the direction of the club, can't fault him for some of the sloppy play or missing of chances but, still I'd like to see an improvement from him on being more proactively making adjustments in game, especially since this is such a young/inexperienced squad where they do need a bit more coaching.
Saying it over and over doesn't make it fact. As usual with anything on this forum people will have their opinion and never be swayed from it. You feel there is no system. I personally see seeds of a plan and enough positives to be pretty calm about our progress.
in these discussions, the board is always blameless when in fact they need to bare 90% of the blame.
The problem is the board.
This is an interesting one, because when he started the job and we were on a great run of victories he seemed incredibly fluent in making adjustments, and they all seemed to work beautifully. Obviously that winning run turned into an absolute turd of a run to close the season, and then this season so far we've seen quite few clear tactical adjustments.
Perhaps he has settled on how we wants to use these players, or perhaps there just isn't the same level of options available. Losing Lukaku and Herrera has certainly impacted what we can do differently. Herrera especially has been a noticeable loss
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