Ramsey and Cech are both gone, to be fair, @roonster09 
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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Hasn't Welbeck been told he can go as well?Ramsey and Cech are both gone, to be fair, @roonster09
Think you'll find Ramsey, Cech and Welbeck have all either left or been released.
Haven't heard anything about that myself. I'd imagine it'll be hard to sell him when you factor in his wages and injury troubles unless he's out of contract? Plus, when you consider Arsenals rubbish transfer budget, they might need to keep him for some squad depth!
I didn't even notice they had 4 down for Arsenal. Yeah, they're a tad off
cant we at least fail with a new set of players?
His contract expired.
I think this is more accurate. Although I dont think Niles was in the squad in 2015 and Im not sure if Chambers is still an Arsenal player.
He is still an Arsenal player had two loans first at Boro' and last season at Fulham.
Ahh fair enough.
Klopp is ruthless behind all the hugs. Get's rid of Sturridge/Moreno while we're signing Jones/Young to new deals.
It makes sense, these players have been throwing managers under the bus for years to save themselves. Basically:
- New boss comes in.
- Gives everyone a chance to show him what they've got.
- Eventually the boss decides on who needs to go and who should stay.
- Players down tools and the coach is gone before they get the chance to sell either them or their buddies
- His replacement comes in, gives everyone the benefit of the doubt/fresh start and the cycle continues.
There’s probably a lot of truth in this. And hard to see Ole as the manager to come in and break up an entire squad and start again...
He might...
He's got this Summer to do what he wants - lets see what his plan is as the Summer goes on.
The only thing I'm concerned about is what caused the big drop off and the change in mood after PSG.
I've asked in the Pogba thread but what happened there? Pogba was super happy with Ole and then it suddenly changed quite dramatically. I don't believe it's just a question of downing tools or whatever. It's got to be something was either said or done that made the players look at Ole in a different way.
I mean, could he have gone in too hard? By that I mean if someone like SAF or even Guardiola says or does something, nobody questions them - primarily because they had/have a track record. It's instant respect. With someone like Ole you have to be a bit more wily. Get to know the players' personalities and take advantage of that (not in a bad way), but to get what you need from the person.
I dunno. I find it a mystery that he lost control (it seems) so very quickly.
He needs to come back and get things out in the open and start with a clean slate. He's got to be conciliatory.
I dunno, but I do worry a tad.
I've asked in the Pogba thread but what happened there? Pogba was super happy with Ole and then it suddenly changed quite dramatically. I don't believe it's just a question of downing tools or whatever. It's got to be something was either said or done that made the players look at Ole in a different way.
I mean, could he have gone in too hard? By that I mean if someone like SAF or even Guardiola says or does something, nobody questions them - primarily because they had/have a track record. It's instant respect. With someone like Ole you have to be a bit more wily. Get to know the players' personalities and take advantage of that (not in a bad way), but to get what you need from the person.
I dunno. I find it a mystery that he lost control (it seems) so very quickly.
He needs to come back and get things out in the open and start with a clean slate. He's got to be conciliatory.
I dunno, but I do worry a tad.
It looks like that's what's happening, that's why we need a DOF to manage the long term planning of the squad.
With good reason.
They have realized that he might not know what he is doing, that Ed has presented Ole with a no win scenario and they want out.
After PSG, we were getting outplayed by Watford at home, Wolves away twice and Everton away. Not at any point, did we look like turning it around too. Those managers schooled him.
I reckon that probably had something to do with it.
No, Ole is the one behind giving these same individual new contracts he is also the problem.
But what happened for them to come to that conclusion is what I'm curious about. I don't believe it's just black and white. Even the game after against Arsenal we played well and would have likely won if we'd converted our chances before Dave let that goal in.
So do they blame him for sticking with Dave? Or what? He didn't do much wrong in that game and then all of a sudden we just kept going downhill.
Whatever happened, it best be resolved once everyone is back. We can't start next season with any kind of conflict.
I also wonder at his bias towards the English contingent. I mean, you can't show that much bias to one group where it's a team sport. That's just suicidal. So who on earth is advising him on these things? Is the coaching staff too 'British'? Are they too biased and are influencing him? Should he get some outsiders?
It just all seems so strange but it's manageable if he uses his brain and not get influenced by the wrong people. It's up to him as the manager, to know the right thing to do to get the best out of these players imho.
I wouldn't say he got schooled per se. A lot of things caught up with us. I accept the injuries the lack of fitness etc. What I want to know is why the mood changed toward him? I'm guessing it has to be something he said or did that caused some discomfort. Yes the players should get on with it, but I just wonder because it was such a dramatic turnaround.
I do think him saying in public things like, 'some of these players are playing their last match etc etc' was not a wise thing. He lost control there. He should know from SAF that you never lose control, or at least, don't do it publicly.
You just can't say things like that in public, He let his emotions get the better of him. Really needs to work this out before we start the new season.
Think that could be a big factor, especially if they think he has his favourites as well. He tried to come across as tough and it backfired on him because although a legendary player for us, he does not have the track record as a manager. People say about Zidane, but he was a world famous player for a number of clubs and his country. Ole is a legend to United fans and not all our players will be United fans, it is a job to some.
I thought he was more intelligent than that.... I hope this is all sorted out because if not, we're in deep shit. And well, he'll lose his dream job unfortunately...
It just takes took to get to assess the new situation. That is pretty normal I think.
If you started a new job tomorrow (assuming basic competence) it would take a few months for your colleagues to have a better understanding of your capabilities and vice-versa.
If your role was connected to broader structural changes then, again, it would take a while before staff could assess whether the company was supporting you in that endeavor and further whether they were giving you sufficient latitude and authority to actually make wholesale changes.
I feel like this must be heavily influenced by youth players.
From the 15/16 squad who had squad numbers, we've still got (* = youth player):
De Gea
Jones
Rojo
Mata
Martial
Smalling
Young
Romero
Shaw
Henderson*
Lingard*
Darmian
Tuanzebe*
Rashford*
J Pereira*
Poole*
Borthwick-Jackson*
A Pereira*
Fosu-Mensah*
The corresponding number for just a year earlier is 9.
We've undoubtedly held on to some dross for too long, but that stat seems to lack a hell of a lot of context.
You've heard the man himself say he doesn't do contracts. You've read the Van Gaal interview displaying who is really funny team affairs. Yet you still blame Ole..?
Do you really think Mourinho said last preseason that he was happy to let Darmian go but then kept him on purpose? These players aren't being kept because of who coaches the first team.
You've heard the man himself say he doesn't do contracts. You've read the Van Gaal interview displaying who is really funny team affairs. Yet you still blame Ole..?
Do you really think Mourinho said last preseason that he was happy to let Darmian go but then kept him on purpose? These players aren't being kept because of who coaches the first team.
Yeah the problem is a lot of the time that other teams do not want to buy a lot of our players since we give them too high wages.
Also Woodward do not want to bring in too many new players before we can sell others. This creates a massive problem for managers. I would bring in players first and then try to sell players. If they are ruining trainings or the dressing room the manager should do what Mourinho did with Bastian (although it was so early and a bit odd). By just waiting up to the point when we sell players it makes us very weak in the market. We are not very proactive at all.
You've heard the man himself say he doesn't do contracts. You've read the Van Gaal interview displaying who is really funny team affairs. Yet you still blame Ole..?
Do you really think Mourinho said last preseason that he was happy to let Darmian go but then kept him on purpose? These players aren't being kept because of who coaches the first team.
Ah come on, thats such a horseshit, at the time and position he was in, if he didnt want them and expressed that in strong way, they wouldnt get contracts, Christ.
Normally I would say its a big mistake however our club at that point was looking like it was in freefall and Ole beong the new inexperienced manager had to assert his authority somehow. He had publically backed the players and been praised by the media for bringing positivity to the club and that he gets the club values. Then the results turned and some players seemed to be mailing it in. Now that could 100% be Ole's fault but really we know this group of players.
Ole coming out and publically saying that he WILL be a success here and some of the current players wont be a part of that puts the authority in his court versus the players/board. The Board now have to back moving on players Ole doesnt want and their replacements. If next season begins and we there has been hardly any movement on this front then the media will deduce that he hasn't been backed.
I'm trying to figure out how many interim managers that have then gone on to be permanent managers that has actually worked out! I can't think of one!
The thing that really made me think twice about Ole was how his attitude changed towards the players from when we were winning to the losing streak! While winning, “it is a joy to work with these players” to when we were losing, “we need young hungry players”.
Interim is a whole different world to the real thing. The pressure was really on Ole once he got that contract, and I'm pretty sure that has been the main factor in our poor form. Great managers can turn things around quickly, stop the rut before it gets worse. 6 months is not a lot of time to be manager of a football club, however, he had enough quality players to beat the likes of Cardiff and Huddersfield.
I don't think Phelan is a great no.2 either. No.2's are very important in the modern day game. If he was that great he would be somewhere other than a blinking technical director at a Australian team close to the bottom of the league!
That is scathing. And I just hope you are not correct because its a very compelling analysis.
Of course the manager is going to slag off players in the press release announcing their new contracts. Yeah and the United media machine would definitely allow that. Right.
Do you also think Mourinho genuinely wanted Young at fullback and wasn't really after Alex Sandro?
Who are the eighteen? Can anyone list them?
And what does “since 2015” mean exactly? Darmian, Romero and Martial were signed that summer.
Here’s my attempt:
The above three
Rojo 2014
Shaw 2014
Lingard 2014 (United debut)
Pereira 2014 (ditto)
Mata 2014 (Jan)
De Gea 2011
Jones 2011
Young 2011
Smalling 2010
Valencia 2009
So that’s thirteen; twelve if you regard Tony V as being certainly on his way.
Edit:@Ubik has already done a better job than me.
And what does “since 2015” mean exactly? Darmian, Romero and Martial were signed that summer.
Here’s my attempt:
The above three
Rojo 2014
Shaw 2014
Lingard 2014 (United debut)
Pereira 2014 (ditto)
Mata 2014 (Jan)
De Gea 2011
Jones 2011
Young 2011
Smalling 2010
Valencia 2009
So that’s thirteen; twelve if you regard Tony V as being certainly on his way.
Edit:@Ubik has already done a better job than me.
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You've heard the man himself say he doesn't do contracts. You've read the Van Gaal interview displaying who is really funny team affairs. Yet you still blame Ole..?
Do you really think Mourinho said last preseason that he was happy to let Darmian go but then kept him on purpose? These players aren't being kept because of who coaches the first team.
That sounds inaccurate to me if a manager clearly says he doesn't want X individual what sense does it make giving the same individual a new contract. Young & Jones would have had approval from Solskjaer for being involved next season, the same now happening with Mata.
We clearly tried to sell Darmian last year but the money offered by the likes of inter supposedly was to low to the club's valuation. I don't entirely have a problem with that, we shouldn't sell players on the cheap just because they aren't needed this is an inflated market and we are still a reputable team with decent players.
If we had a Zidane / Poch in charge do you honestly believe we would be giving these players long term deals I highly doubt this to be the case.
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It's like playing red and black on roulette, go on a winning streak, and bang, you get found out and lose it all. I think Ole as manager is the perfect analogy of this. I didn't see anything other than counter attacking football from Ole in the 6 months! And certainly no real style.
The appointment was sentimental, hurried and not thought through. You can only really judge a manager by how he reacts to losing. It's all and well when your winning, I even thought give him the job! But I guess, like most of us, and I include Woodward in this, we have no real idea of how to run a football club in a footballing sense.
Would I like to see Ole nailing this job, of course I would. But I just feel with Ed making the decisions, we could have another Moyes on our hands.
Of course the manager is going to slag off players in the press release announcing their new contracts. Yeah and the United media machine would definitely allow that. Right.
Do you also think Mourinho genuinely wanted Young at fullback and wasn't really after Alex Sandro?
!?
I meant when it comes to discussion between him and Woodward regarding players, dont tell me you believe that Ole said something like, do not extend their contracts, i dont want them here next season, wont use them, its time to say thank you goodbye and EW responded, hmm, nah, regardless of your opinion Ole, will waste money on new contracts regardless of them being not in your plans.
Feck me
I have just read the Van Gaal interview someone mentioned and he spells out exactly the structural problems he found at the club:
- nobody asked him about football style and philosophy when discussing becoming manager (said that had never happened before)
- talked about the deep skillset of a technical director (which we dont have)
- talked about our poor player recruitment and development structure
- how he didnt get the players that he wanted with Woodward and Judge calling the shots ultimately
- our focus in commercial matters over football performance
- our lower quality of players compared to our competitors and how that affects tactics
- and his big surprise that such an important job would go to someone like Ole.
But you just said if we finish 10th with a young team. Now that young team isn't good enough, so we'd have to clear them out and start again
A young team that ain’t this bunch puddings fella
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