That psg high was a higher single feeling than even the cup wins from the others
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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That psg high was a higher single feeling than even the cup wins from the others
Exactly.
Correct.
A team like Huddersfield that had nothing to play for, already relegated, with us still having a chance for top 4 and able to put some pressure in the last round.
There's absolutely no logic in appointing another stop gap manager, who doesn't have a clear vision or gameplan.
And from what I've seen from Ole, he doesn't have both.
I can't keep repeating myself. Go ahead and believe whatever you like
Fact is, Ole will remain in charge for another 10 months minimum. Better you come to terms with that rather than whine about it on a public message board.
Ole needs to be given at least until the end of next season. Why. Because Ed has appointed him and we cant keep sacking managers every season. Whether Ole has either the tactical nous or bottle to really do the job that needs to be done is another question mark. I havent seen much from him in the past few weeks to back up all his talking about reality check, and no where to hide. He continues to select the same poor players week in week out.
Yep, I am, don't worry. Wish I could fast forward a year or so as the next season is the write-off anyway but unfortunately I can't so you will need to come to terms with us whiners.I can't keep repeating myself. Go ahead and believe whatever you like
Fact is, Ole will remain in charge for another 10 months minimum. Better you come to terms with that rather than whine about it on a public message board.
It still remains the reason for his appointment, whether you agree with it or not. He won't be sacked this early without there being an obvious replacement available, and if those who are desperate for him to leave can't think of any alternatives - perhaps don't be so surprised to see him stay in charge for the coming season.
I don’t expect him to be sacked any time soon, nor would it be fair to do so at this stage. However I don’t think the decision to appoint him was well-considered and I have low expectations for next season.
So, hiring manager after manager and giving them time, albeit them being a failure could easily be predicted by random football fans is the right thing to do?
I guess that's the "United way" under Woodward.
Not sure what makes me cringe harder, 'rashy' or 'jonah'
For the bolded bit, what I meant was do feel free to judge him on that. It is indeed a blemish. Being successful in Norway certainly doesn’t equate to success in the Premier League, it shows Ole can excel in that particular context and has some latent management abilities. Similarly his failure at Cardiff suggest to me that he may not work well without the right support, environment and resources. Both cannot be fully translated into Man Utd which is a different beast altogether. I prefer to see it as him having the opportunity and experience to learn.
I say this isn’t his team because he didn’t build it. If you are a working adult you’d see this often: new managers like to hire their own team but of course they might not always be able to do so. It is only natural. Plus I agree with you in that if we attribute the good run we should also attribute the bad. Thus perhaps not so clearly, I am merely expressing that the good runs show that he can get the team to play good football but the bad run shows he needs to work on several things as well, like fitness for example. So if a fan wants to ignore his good run then rightfully his bad run should also be disregarded. But we won’t do that, because each of this situation tells us that there are problems and also there are positives. But the only way to sort the problems and reap the positives is to allow time. As for your question, at the tail end this team is not playing better than the team that started the season, but we saw a significant run in the middle where the team played much better.
I am curious which are these managers that have implemented their philosophy in a short time such as 5 months? Where are these managers and their teams now? I suspect, without statistical backup, that these managers are the exception and not the rule. And I don’t think you can plan a club success based on such low odds. Speaking of low odds, I actually think Ole is a big gamble by the board, but I that I believe will be more positive then the current forum mood suggests. As much as fans like to think we offered Ole the job too quickly, the reality is that it would not have made much difference. Imagine is Ole is not hired, who would our realistic candidates be? Many will say Pochettino but as long as we are judging Ole on the last 10-15 games, Poch’s similar run doesn’t inspire much confidence. Anyway Poch vs Ole is a whole other thread and I will stop here.
I don’t know what the players want or wish to see in a manager. I also don’t know how Ole is when he deals with the players. And neither do most, if not all the fans here, I would wager. These qualities you mentioned in a leader, I wonder how many managers showcase those? Klopp? Zidane? I really don’t know. But I know that LVG and Mourinho are really knowledgeable but they also failed.
So all I see in Ole is a man who has achieved some success and has suffered a failure. He knows the club culture inside out and has also managed the youth team. He has learnt from one of the best managers in the game and he is known to be smart and a very good student of the game. He is also less toxic so far than our previous manager but not as decorated.
The point is so what? Better managers have failed here. Ole has been appointed and we just have to see how he goes and hope he gets the right support and Infrastructure. I see little point in dissecting every sentence during every interview and getting riled up, especially when we know that words in the press mean little.
I am not saying we should support the managers regardless of what happens. With every manager so far, I take the view that they should be supported by the board and fans until circumstances show that the support is not justified. For me the time for Moyes was when he claimed SAF wouldn’t do as well as him, for Mourinho it was the toxicity in the last few weeks. I actually don’t really know why LVG was sacked aside from being an absolute bore - I think he was trying to build something. So with Ole, I think if he hasn’t been appointed yet it would be fair to open up the role to more candidates as doubt creeps in. But since he is already appointed he should be given the time and support. It is not Ole’s fault that he was appointed by the board.
I have seen some really stupid suggestions that Ole should do the honourable and resign. Seriously giving up a dream without a go, on a whimper? That’s not the character I want to see in the manager of a club like Man Utd.
Fans keep saying players are crap/spoiled/etc, the club is incompetent etc. Manager should be sacked etc etc. I can see no path where creating such a negative atmosphere around the club helps the rebuild process. The players and the club’s PR read these forums, no doubt. The negativity here only complicated things and hampers decisions.
This is particularly problematic since Ole hasn’t been given a chance at trying to get his own players in. It is the fastest I have seen fans turn on a manager. This guy hasn’t started the race but the fans want him killed off after the warm up.
In the end, none of us know how he will turn out. I find the negativity extremely tiresome and draining on this forum. Thus I prefer to look at the positives and respect that other posters want to look at negatives. It’s just I am bemused how extremely negative some posters can be.
Sounds about right. They can't possibly sack him now, so soon after giving him the job. It would be utterly embarrassing for the board. He will definitely still be here at the start of next season.
Longer term, we all know what's going to happen though, don't we.
What are you on about?
I was a big Solskjaer fan, and still is. I believe Ole's past has experiences from the successful period that can be harvested from.
And I believe he can create it with a little time and the right set of players.
So why did Ole initially succeed and then failed?
First Ole experienced record breaking good performance, then record breaking bad performance.
I believe it has to do at least 50% with the squad psychology/morale. Then other 50% is a mix of opponents being tactical aware of the new playing style, player physical fatigue, expected goals statistics evening out etc.
So let's talk about player morale.
The big dramatic change in performances with the currect squad, has proven that this is mostly a psychological defect.
The squad have displayed a manic/depressive/narcissistic/snowflake mind set when the tide turned. And Solskjaer is partly to bless and blame:
Because Ole's praise of the squad lifted their self belief above their abilities for a while. So why did they fall down so hard?
The part of the success is also a big part of the problem:
Ole lifted the squad with a lot of positive (partly delusional) mantras:
Eg.
1) wearing a United shirt on the pitch means you have abundant talent
2) the club has traditions of good results, and therefore should naturally be a contender for winning whatever again. (Like magic)
3) United always bouce back after a loss
4) United always finish the season strong
Ole made the public statements about the club and player traditions in a way that the players themselves could mistakenly believe that this could magically happen without putting in 100% of their own effort.
Solskjaer's praise made initially everyone perform, narcissists or not, they all started believing in Ole's pep talk (when the results were good);
The squad believed that they were good because they were United players, not the other way around.
The initial praise (and luck according to Xgoals statistics) created a false sense of security and belief which created better self belief and better performance.
When (expected goals) statistics finally corrected/evened out, as statistics always will, Ole's positive mantras from the press conferences started falling flat:
Big players are often big egoes. Big egoes are often big narcissists. Narcissists like nothing more than someone praising them. They will not hear about reality check. That's a complete insult to a narcissist.
(I will not put labels on spesific players, but clearly many squad players carry the narcissistic traits if you know the signs.)
Any squad can only take so many narcisist before it get toxic. And they are the worst poision when things are not good. Because they never fault themselves, but will blame other team members or managers tactics.
So the toxic player/players group which are narcisists have lost respect/trust in Ole:
- They can fault his pep-talk statements for not being true (even if they are the one supposed to work for the results, but again narcissists don't follow that train of thoughts)
- They have been told to take a reality check. Worst thing to say to a narcissist.
- Ole is concidered having a weak persona by a narcissist, which only respect other big-ego narcissists, or persons praising them.
The fact that Ole is a sympath, not a narcisist, which many big managers are, is at this stage working against him.
Because narcissists work the mind games far better than normal people. And they can't be changed. They only thrive under success, but they have to be a part of producing that success themselves.
At the moment the narcissistic force of the player group has proven to be to strong, and has to be reduced.
Normal talents will only take so much from narcissists before they want to move on. It's like this for all workers in all areas.
Ole has talked a lot about getting the players with the right personality. So he is aware of it.
I believe that narcissistic managers, maybe like our two previous ones, don't have the same antennas for avoiding narcissistic colleagues and employees. Simply because they don't see anything wrong about people having abundance of self confidence.
Well, the problem is now straight in our faces. Because when the going gets tough, narcissists will always be the ones to feck up and blaming everyone else, creating the toxic atmosphere. Most people have experienced it and know what I talk about.
Ole need to sort it out, getting a healthy core of intelligent hard working non-narcissistic players with the skill set matching his tactics.
And never accept narcissism to root and rot the core of the club again.
Then we will have a squad again, that will fight for the shirt, the club, and all the rest of us. Not primarily for their own ambitions sake.
For what it's worth I feel that the one thing we achieved this season is to get to see the core of the problem, which now can finally be adressed properly.
Restore core values with a team respecting the club above anything. Put together a team that is fighting every minute in all games. Then I can start enjoy watching again and feel proud to support this club.
And I believe he can create it with a little time and the right set of players.
So why did Ole initially succeed and then failed?
First Ole experienced record breaking good performance, then record breaking bad performance.
I believe it has to do at least 50% with the squad psychology/morale. Then other 50% is a mix of opponents being tactical aware of the new playing style, player physical fatigue, expected goals statistics evening out etc.
So let's talk about player morale.
The big dramatic change in performances with the currect squad, has proven that this is mostly a psychological defect.
The squad have displayed a manic/depressive/narcissistic/snowflake mind set when the tide turned. And Solskjaer is partly to bless and blame:
Because Ole's praise of the squad lifted their self belief above their abilities for a while. So why did they fall down so hard?
The part of the success is also a big part of the problem:
Ole lifted the squad with a lot of positive (partly delusional) mantras:
Eg.
1) wearing a United shirt on the pitch means you have abundant talent
2) the club has traditions of good results, and therefore should naturally be a contender for winning whatever again. (Like magic)
3) United always bouce back after a loss
4) United always finish the season strong
Ole made the public statements about the club and player traditions in a way that the players themselves could mistakenly believe that this could magically happen without putting in 100% of their own effort.
Solskjaer's praise made initially everyone perform, narcissists or not, they all started believing in Ole's pep talk (when the results were good);
The squad believed that they were good because they were United players, not the other way around.
The initial praise (and luck according to Xgoals statistics) created a false sense of security and belief which created better self belief and better performance.
When (expected goals) statistics finally corrected/evened out, as statistics always will, Ole's positive mantras from the press conferences started falling flat:
Big players are often big egoes. Big egoes are often big narcissists. Narcissists like nothing more than someone praising them. They will not hear about reality check. That's a complete insult to a narcissist.
(I will not put labels on spesific players, but clearly many squad players carry the narcissistic traits if you know the signs.)
Any squad can only take so many narcisist before it get toxic. And they are the worst poision when things are not good. Because they never fault themselves, but will blame other team members or managers tactics.
So the toxic player/players group which are narcisists have lost respect/trust in Ole:
- They can fault his pep-talk statements for not being true (even if they are the one supposed to work for the results, but again narcissists don't follow that train of thoughts)
- They have been told to take a reality check. Worst thing to say to a narcissist.
- Ole is concidered having a weak persona by a narcissist, which only respect other big-ego narcissists, or persons praising them.
The fact that Ole is a sympath, not a narcisist, which many big managers are, is at this stage working against him.
Because narcissists work the mind games far better than normal people. And they can't be changed. They only thrive under success, but they have to be a part of producing that success themselves.
At the moment the narcissistic force of the player group has proven to be to strong, and has to be reduced.
Normal talents will only take so much from narcissists before they want to move on. It's like this for all workers in all areas.
Ole has talked a lot about getting the players with the right personality. So he is aware of it.
I believe that narcissistic managers, maybe like our two previous ones, don't have the same antennas for avoiding narcissistic colleagues and employees. Simply because they don't see anything wrong about people having abundance of self confidence.
Well, the problem is now straight in our faces. Because when the going gets tough, narcissists will always be the ones to feck up and blaming everyone else, creating the toxic atmosphere. Most people have experienced it and know what I talk about.
Ole need to sort it out, getting a healthy core of intelligent hard working non-narcissistic players with the skill set matching his tactics.
And never accept narcissism to root and rot the core of the club again.
Then we will have a squad again, that will fight for the shirt, the club, and all the rest of us. Not primarily for their own ambitions sake.
For what it's worth I feel that the one thing we achieved this season is to get to see the core of the problem, which now can finally be adressed properly.
Restore core values with a team respecting the club above anything. Put together a team that is fighting every minute in all games. Then I can start enjoy watching again and feel proud to support this club.
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What's the point of keeping him for the next season since it's pretty evident we are not much different compared to when he first came? To write off yet another season or two?
It would be hugely embarrassing for the board to sack him now. They will want to give him a fair crack at it.
I imagine the situation will be revisited in December/January...
This is my thinking as well. Short of a miracle ala Di Matteo, a caretaker manager shouldn't be given the permanent job. Ole might have looked on course for such an achievement but things eventually normalized. Struggling to see what he has done to get the permanent job, when more than half the forum was against Giggs getting it a couple of years ago.
So in other words - write off season or two and couple of hundred million pounds. Brilliant management from Ed once again.
Yes. He (Ed) wrote off last season before it started as well, so this is becoming a bit of a running theme now.
Wonder on who will he pin it this time to save face.
Ole is his appointment all the way - from interim to full time.
Maybe hire Phelan and Rio and blame them in the winter.
In terms of effort and caring for the club they are far worse
You can't expect him to be sacked one month after being given the job unless there is an obvious replacement available (which has yet to be suggested). That's not to say I agree with how the club is being run - quite the opposite actually. However, from a logical standpoint I can't see him being sacked at this stage and those who are hoping for it to happen will be left disappointed.
Lopetegui was sacked 14 matches after getting the job. Ole is 22% win rate since appointed - two times worse off than him.
The only reason why he won't be sacked is because Ed will save face.
Pretty sure 22% is wrong.
No, the only reason he is not sacked is because he need and deserve a full preseason and at least two transfer windows. We also need to shape up the club.
Appointed 28th of March. Since then:
2 wins - Watford and WHU.
2 draws
5 losses.
It's 22.2% if you are being punctual.
Deserve how? On what basis? Do we give that to every wrong appointment we make?
You do understand we are going to recycle hundreds of millions and dozens of players in that process?
Appointed full time manager yes, you didn't state that. Either way I'm no Ole fan and was against his full time appointment.
Aye, full time. Otherwise he should've walked come the end of the season (as he was hired as interim).
Either way his credentials came as interim manager. So far his work(even as a whole) hasn't really been better than what Jose was sacked for this season. The only difference is he came high but also fell even lower at the tail end.
Mate. Its currently not a wrong appointment, its just to early to say. We will find out next season. The bigger issue is if the club are willing to change and shape up. That would not only benefit OGS, but our next manager as well. Something is very wrong at our club atm and its easy to see that we are old and outdated.
Well I am not going to argue in here anymore. Fire OGS or not, we are stuck atm.
What does this mean though? Fire Ole now and get Ed to sell the entire squad while buying a new one? That’s what a reset means right? Wouldn’t that be unrealistic and disruptive? Has there actually be clubs successful doing this?
I still feel we make the same mistakes over and over again. Ole hasn't really proven he deserves a chance to get the transfer window now and next season IMO.
We are falling behind not only City and Liverpool but the top 4 as a whole. I agree with you in terms of overall structure obviously but this shit throwing against the wall in terms of appointing managers needs to stop.
The whole point of appointing DoF this year was that he'd choose the next manager. Now if we stick with Ole what's the point? We hire a DoF who again has to follow the order we already have - a mess.
Chelsea, Real?
I feel the team got broken at some point around march, and for some reason they let themselves go. That cup game vs Wolves was the first time I saw the players downing tools and not doing the basics on the field since Ole came in December, and from that point it's been a constant.
The reasons are such a mystery for me because they win nothing by doing this, but from that game the team is nonexistant. After Everton there were reports about the dressing room being like a civil war and maybe there's something going on in that sense. Conflict of individual interests, mutual recriminations and at some point everything explodes. Contract distractions, players thinking about leaving and the team spirit suddenly is nowhere to be seen. I'm just speculating but for me that's the only way to explain such a big difference in terms of focus and intentions on the field. The last month or so is like they went on holidays already.
And I don't suggest Ole is totally blameless because there's things I didn't like and undeniable mistakes, added to the obvious question marks around anyone without experience at the very top. I understand concerns and criticism but while the team tried to play like an actual football team I saw the man facing games home and away, against small or big teams, in one competition or another always in a positive way, aiming to win but at the same time in a balanced way. Moulding the line up and tactics depending on circumstances with a lot of common sense. So I think his overall management has been fine considering the context, and results wise he's done a decent job as well. Third in the league since he came, victories against Arsenal, Chelsea and PSG in tournaments, so not bad at all.
It's a shame really that we are in this current situation because during that run with Pogba playing well on a weekly basis, Herrera performing like a swiss clock, even Matic did it well for some time, our attackers scoring and assisting for fun even Lukaku the moments he came from the bench, our defence looking decent with Lindelof emerging from the shadows. With all that you could think we had a solid basis to build from, and with a more positive management and some good additions we could aim high next season.
But the way it looks at the minute with a lot of potential departures, players looking shot and the team spirit broken into pieces it smells like we'll need a deep deep rebuild, not only in terms of football abilities on the field but also from a dressing room perspective. This is why I'm sure a change of manager won't happen and it would be a silly thing to do, because the one who's got all the information about these players both as individuals and as a group it's Solskjaer and the staff.
A new manager would mean a fresh start for most of them, just to discover at some point that you can't build anything around this bunch composed by mental childs, clowns and primadonnas without any leadership at the same time. A total turd of squad and a ticking bomb for anyone. Now it has exploded we should allow the man to complete the job and clean as much as he can, refresh the atmosphere inside bringing players with energy and talent, prepare the team well from the summer, and hopefully we can see the basis of something good in the making. For me that's the only way to go at the moment.
The reasons are such a mystery for me because they win nothing by doing this, but from that game the team is nonexistant. After Everton there were reports about the dressing room being like a civil war and maybe there's something going on in that sense. Conflict of individual interests, mutual recriminations and at some point everything explodes. Contract distractions, players thinking about leaving and the team spirit suddenly is nowhere to be seen. I'm just speculating but for me that's the only way to explain such a big difference in terms of focus and intentions on the field. The last month or so is like they went on holidays already.
And I don't suggest Ole is totally blameless because there's things I didn't like and undeniable mistakes, added to the obvious question marks around anyone without experience at the very top. I understand concerns and criticism but while the team tried to play like an actual football team I saw the man facing games home and away, against small or big teams, in one competition or another always in a positive way, aiming to win but at the same time in a balanced way. Moulding the line up and tactics depending on circumstances with a lot of common sense. So I think his overall management has been fine considering the context, and results wise he's done a decent job as well. Third in the league since he came, victories against Arsenal, Chelsea and PSG in tournaments, so not bad at all.
It's a shame really that we are in this current situation because during that run with Pogba playing well on a weekly basis, Herrera performing like a swiss clock, even Matic did it well for some time, our attackers scoring and assisting for fun even Lukaku the moments he came from the bench, our defence looking decent with Lindelof emerging from the shadows. With all that you could think we had a solid basis to build from, and with a more positive management and some good additions we could aim high next season.
But the way it looks at the minute with a lot of potential departures, players looking shot and the team spirit broken into pieces it smells like we'll need a deep deep rebuild, not only in terms of football abilities on the field but also from a dressing room perspective. This is why I'm sure a change of manager won't happen and it would be a silly thing to do, because the one who's got all the information about these players both as individuals and as a group it's Solskjaer and the staff.
A new manager would mean a fresh start for most of them, just to discover at some point that you can't build anything around this bunch composed by mental childs, clowns and primadonnas without any leadership at the same time. A total turd of squad and a ticking bomb for anyone. Now it has exploded we should allow the man to complete the job and clean as much as he can, refresh the atmosphere inside bringing players with energy and talent, prepare the team well from the summer, and hopefully we can see the basis of something good in the making. For me that's the only way to go at the moment.
Well if you prefer to believe that players are downing tools, even though majority of them praised Ole and said how much they enjoy working with him, is the only reason for our drop of form and results, I suppose it's in your rights to do so.
I agree. We should have hired a DoF first and then make a choice about OGS. That was not a good move. Hopefully we will get the DoF before preseason and the transfer business.
You can’t because normal sensible people and companies do not work in such ways and certainly not Manchester United. Sets a terrible precedent and is a reputational problem.
So if LVG couldn’t and Mourinho couldn’t and you don’t think Ole can, which miraculous individual do you think is out there that convinces Ed or will manage to get rid of the deadwood? You are getting riled up at Ole for matters outside his control which is frankly, irrational.
As for the basis for giving Ole the transfer budget it is simply that he was hired and he needs it to do his job. It’s as simple as that. It makes no business sense to hire someone for such an important role and then sabotaging your own decision by not supporting him.
Now as for whether he ends up being the right one or not. We will just have to wait and see. Even the vaunted Klopp took Dortmund near relegation and needed several years before Liverpool are where they are.
I am not saying Ole is as good as Klopp. The point is we don’t know if we never give him time. And since he is already appointed it is simple sense to give him time and support.
Clearly fitness is an important issue even if you refuse to acknowledge. Anyone who has played sport at any level for competitiveness knows that fitness can be the difference in concentration, in motivation, in executing a well-trained skills. If it has nothing to do with fitness, why do clubs even bother to train fitness? In any case, we did have chances and a few sitters against Huddersfield and we hit the frame twice while a few of our strikers fluffed their lines. Fine margins. I don’t see how Ole could have made the players miss, unless maybe because he pressed the “shoot” button too early or didn’t hold it down long enough.
Thanks for a respectful and good response. That’s always the best way to find common grounds.
Let’s first address the next step moving forward.
Should he be told to step down, or in worst case scenario be sacked?
Off course not! There are human values involved who we simply can’t ignore. Put it this way. The club needed help in a difficult moment and Ole Gunnar was there to help us. Doesn’t matter the circumstances and that he got paid. We as supporters and the club put him indirectly in a almost impossible situation. Being the (only) public face when things go so horrible wrong isn’t fair to anyone. Where in the flying f*ck was Edward Woodward. At least that incompetent idiot could publicly helped him by giving him reassurance about the future and told the media, and indirectly the players, that our new manager is untouchable. How about that small detail. But the thick head is nowhere to be seen when things go wrong. Again. Sorry but I hate that man. (regarding sacking incompetence)
Finally. My reptile brain says sack him and find a new (better) manager, but as we all know that’s not going to happened. So until then I will continue to moan, be miserable, a hypocrite and a moron (that’s for you mods) but when next season starts I will support and cheer the team as usual. You don’t wash away 50 years of passion just like that.
The only way forward in short term perspective is to give Ole Gunnar as much help as possible, Back him up if we need to remove half of the squad. Find quality assistants to help him and the best fitness coach available.
Either we rip the rotten part away from the squad ASAP or this downfall will probably continue.
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